Very good. Just one more question:
Is there anyone responsible for becoming more and more aligned with the flow of life?
RedwoodsAndBerries
Re: RedwoodsAndBerries
No.Is there anyone responsible for becoming more and more aligned with the flow of life?
But this is a very helpful question, because it gets at the ways that a selfing process tries to grow back, like algae over a lake. When I was meditating today the helpful thought arose that I should notice body sensations and sound, not just thoughts. It can be easy to think a self produced this and there is an “I” that is guiding, or at least nudging, a spiritual maturation process. “Should I listen to that thought?” “I” wondered.
But both of these are just thoughts/volitions – a self isn’t necessary to guide a process of coming into alignment with the flow of life. And a self couldn’t do this even if a self existed. Life is too varied and complex. And its constantly moving and without any fixed entities, so a fixed entity of any kind couldn’t be responsible for the process. I hope that makes sense!
Thank you again!
-
Iconoclast
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:51 am
Re: RedwoodsAndBerries
OK, Amy, very good!
Now, please incorporate the content and implications of your latest response into your answer to the fifth question, and resend all six of your answers to the final questions.
I'll then ask the other guides to read them and let me know if they have any further questions.
Now, please incorporate the content and implications of your latest response into your answer to the fifth question, and resend all six of your answers to the final questions.
I'll then ask the other guides to read them and let me know if they have any further questions.
Re: RedwoodsAndBerries
Hi Necip,
Interesting process working with what you offered today - thank you! Here are the (maybe final) six answers. (I will be off the grid with no computer access Thurs Oct 1- Monday Oct 5 US Pacific time and will respond to anything posted then after that.)
In one of them that just happened, I made eye contact with the cat, and then a “me” feeling arose. I perceived the cat as a separate entity perceiving me and I identified with the feeling of consciousness – hers and mine. It can seem like consciousness and recognition point backwards towards selves, but when I check there is just consciousness – not a cat and human self who are controlling or housing consciousness.
But if that wasn’t known the “me” feeling would also encompass the feeling of the body walking in front of the cat, the sight of legs and arms moving. The certainty that is felt that perceptions are accurate (of floor, cat etc.) seems to also point backwards towards a self. Thoughts seem to point backwards towards a self making the thoughts, and on top of it many thoughts start with “I” (because many previous thoughts started with “I” and the habit is very strong). But all of these are just experiences.
Once an experience is labelled “mine” or “me” or “myself” other types of experiences get whirlpooled up into it, creating a sort of tornado of disparate types of experience which becomes a seemingly solid mass that gets misconstrued as a self.
Before the change one month ago, the day seemed to be broken up into pieces – periods of time when doing certain activities, moods etc. Now it all seems to be continually flowing. Everything is always changing all the time. At first there was a lot of joy and intense energy and daily life seemed entirely fascinating – I guess that’s still true. The desire for distraction is gone – life happening is fascinating. And the desire to procrastinate, which used to be so strong, is not there – it seems the belief in a self was at the center of that somehow.
The crazy energy I felt right at the change time has relaxed and I’m sleeping more normally (for a couple of weeks I couldn’t sleep or eat normal amounts).
I’ve also been feeling and acting much more relaxed and not defensive – because this is the end of self improvement or self help. If I make a mistake a just apologize and think about how to make things better in the future and move forward. There’s not a self to manage or feel bad about. I have felt some loneliness because this way of seeing the world is so different from how most people see things – it feels painful to hear them beat up on themselves under the false idea they have selves. I just want to tell them they don’t and to stop worrying but I know this won’t actually be well received.
The last few days of this inquiry have pushed me to look deeper and in a more granular way at my actual experience. This has been hugely helpful. It seems to be helping this change in understanding take deeper root. Equanimity has been so strong these last few days. I know not to identify with that and think it will always be like that, but it’s remarkable to feel this way. As someone who was often described as anxious, intense and high strung, it’s wild to feel like there really isn’t anything to worry about in a very fundamental way.
People are reacting to me differently. I can see they are feel more relaxed and safer around me.
For this inquiry with you, the selfing cube (thoughts x feeling x psychological time) was hugely helpful. And being asked to untangle the selfing process in relation to the past. Also being asked to really look at experiences of intention and choice. That continues to make me look and be very helpful.
As for freewill, I was eating the sides next to the sandwich and knew my fork was heading towards a piece of avocado. Then a volition arose that was sort of saying, “you can’t control me” as if resisting the avocado-directed volition to make a point. So the fork stabbed a piece of broccoli instead. The volition that chose the broccoli can feel a self-like because it was connected to a rebellious urge to what might be construed as was free will, but really these are just two urges stemming most likely from two different past patterns. The choice of avocado vs broccoli is not connected to a self – neither choice is preordained and neither is right or wrong because there’s not self to answer to (and no moral issue in this case). When it comes to freewill especially in situations where there is a moral hazard, there is no self to assert freewill and over time actions that are ethical and helpful, wise and kind will tend to be chosen more often through a learning process that is not directed by a single entity but by life itself.
Control: Some volitions get acted on, some don’t. Patterns and mental factors determine which volitions seem worth acting on. Some volitions get weaker and less frequent because they aren’t acted on. Some volitions get acted on and thus reactivated. But no one controls any of the steps in this process. No selves are controlling anything but patterns of thought and activity learn by observing the results of actions. Learning happens, but there is no self as either the manager of the learning process or the repository of what gets learned.
On responsibility: Eating breakfast before going to an outdoor workday – that responsibility resides here. But it doesn’t seem like an “I” self needs to be responsible for this to happen reliably. Along these lines, it seems like responsibility for actions and speech resides here, especially when it comes to preventing harm. There are mental factors that arise urging action (or non action) to prevent or limit harm. Like it my cat became seriously injured I think it would feel terrible to not get her medical treatment. Urges to take action to get her medical treatment would keep coming up and the emotions from not doing so would feel awful. So there doesn’t need to be a self in order for “me” to take responsibility for the things and beings in my life I should be accountable to – arising thoughts, feelings, urges, and intentions will do it if there’s not a confused, selfish experience that gums up the works.
The responsibility to being more and more aligned with the flow of life feels like it follows from this, that it is implied by the word response-ability. Though it may seem like responsiveness or responsibility to the “flow of life” points backwards towards a self, this is revealed upon investigation not to be the case.
For example, when I was meditating today the helpful thought arose that I should notice body sensations and sound, not just thoughts. There can be a tightness for moment that feels like a self produced this and that there is an “I” that is guiding, or at least nudging, a spiritual maturation process. “Should I listen to that thought?” “I” wondered. But all of these are just thoughts and volitions – a self isn’t necessary to guide a process of increasing ease and alignment with the flow of life. And a self couldn’t do this even if a self existed. Because life is too varied and complex. And it is constantly moving and without any fixed entities, so a fixed entity of any kind couldn’t be responsible for the process (or even function with any kind of effectiveness or reliability whatsoever).
With enormous gratitude and some awe,
Amy
Interesting process working with what you offered today - thank you! Here are the (maybe final) six answers. (I will be off the grid with no computer access Thurs Oct 1- Monday Oct 5 US Pacific time and will respond to anything posted then after that.)
No, there is no separate entity of 'self', 'me' 'I' and there never was. I looked through childhood photos today and it was interesting to see what I remembered and what those memories were made of – fragments of sense detail, fragments of previously remembered memories like clothing that had been washed many times. There’s a clinging feeling, like craving for a favorite food, to the idea that these images are of “me.” There’s a body that’s kept growing, changing and replacing itself, and chains of thought pinging forward (some continuity, much discontinuity). But there was not a self at any point along the way.1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
On a moment to moment level, the illusion starts in any number of ways.2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
In one of them that just happened, I made eye contact with the cat, and then a “me” feeling arose. I perceived the cat as a separate entity perceiving me and I identified with the feeling of consciousness – hers and mine. It can seem like consciousness and recognition point backwards towards selves, but when I check there is just consciousness – not a cat and human self who are controlling or housing consciousness.
But if that wasn’t known the “me” feeling would also encompass the feeling of the body walking in front of the cat, the sight of legs and arms moving. The certainty that is felt that perceptions are accurate (of floor, cat etc.) seems to also point backwards towards a self. Thoughts seem to point backwards towards a self making the thoughts, and on top of it many thoughts start with “I” (because many previous thoughts started with “I” and the habit is very strong). But all of these are just experiences.
Once an experience is labelled “mine” or “me” or “myself” other types of experiences get whirlpooled up into it, creating a sort of tornado of disparate types of experience which becomes a seemingly solid mass that gets misconstrued as a self.
The change for me happened one month ago. So I’ve been getting to do this dialogue during a period of integration, and that has been enormously helpful. I feel like this dialogue has helped broaden the knowing into more areas of life and has helped pull out some roots that wanted to grow back. I don’t think the weed roots would have gotten a foothold, but that there would have been more confusion and strain without this conversation.3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Before the change one month ago, the day seemed to be broken up into pieces – periods of time when doing certain activities, moods etc. Now it all seems to be continually flowing. Everything is always changing all the time. At first there was a lot of joy and intense energy and daily life seemed entirely fascinating – I guess that’s still true. The desire for distraction is gone – life happening is fascinating. And the desire to procrastinate, which used to be so strong, is not there – it seems the belief in a self was at the center of that somehow.
The crazy energy I felt right at the change time has relaxed and I’m sleeping more normally (for a couple of weeks I couldn’t sleep or eat normal amounts).
I’ve also been feeling and acting much more relaxed and not defensive – because this is the end of self improvement or self help. If I make a mistake a just apologize and think about how to make things better in the future and move forward. There’s not a self to manage or feel bad about. I have felt some loneliness because this way of seeing the world is so different from how most people see things – it feels painful to hear them beat up on themselves under the false idea they have selves. I just want to tell them they don’t and to stop worrying but I know this won’t actually be well received.
The last few days of this inquiry have pushed me to look deeper and in a more granular way at my actual experience. This has been hugely helpful. It seems to be helping this change in understanding take deeper root. Equanimity has been so strong these last few days. I know not to identify with that and think it will always be like that, but it’s remarkable to feel this way. As someone who was often described as anxious, intense and high strung, it’s wild to feel like there really isn’t anything to worry about in a very fundamental way.
People are reacting to me differently. I can see they are feel more relaxed and safer around me.
It’s been a process of inquiry and practice over time. About 10 months ago I started getting glimpses. A continual moment to moment effort to be diligent in looking picked up steam. I also had a very strong expectation and very strong faith that this would work. Because if there aren’t selves, why wouldn’t efforts to see this not succeed eventually? For the last couple of weeks it felt like the investigation was really running itself, an obsession that ran on its own fuel.4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
For this inquiry with you, the selfing cube (thoughts x feeling x psychological time) was hugely helpful. And being asked to untangle the selfing process in relation to the past. Also being asked to really look at experiences of intention and choice. That continues to make me look and be very helpful.
So I was going just now to the kitchen. I saw things that needed to be moved or done and did them, to get ready to make dinner. The hands just did these things, after volitions arose. Then an image arose of a sandwich and then the thought arose, “Its late, I’m tired, maybe a sandwich is good enough.” The body started getting out sandwich things. An image of cheese arose, an image of a pickle. Volition arose in response. Then hands reached inside the fridge for cheese and pickles. After that a thought arose saying, “I made a sandwich.” But the process did not require a self to orchestrate it and no self did.5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
As for freewill, I was eating the sides next to the sandwich and knew my fork was heading towards a piece of avocado. Then a volition arose that was sort of saying, “you can’t control me” as if resisting the avocado-directed volition to make a point. So the fork stabbed a piece of broccoli instead. The volition that chose the broccoli can feel a self-like because it was connected to a rebellious urge to what might be construed as was free will, but really these are just two urges stemming most likely from two different past patterns. The choice of avocado vs broccoli is not connected to a self – neither choice is preordained and neither is right or wrong because there’s not self to answer to (and no moral issue in this case). When it comes to freewill especially in situations where there is a moral hazard, there is no self to assert freewill and over time actions that are ethical and helpful, wise and kind will tend to be chosen more often through a learning process that is not directed by a single entity but by life itself.
Control: Some volitions get acted on, some don’t. Patterns and mental factors determine which volitions seem worth acting on. Some volitions get weaker and less frequent because they aren’t acted on. Some volitions get acted on and thus reactivated. But no one controls any of the steps in this process. No selves are controlling anything but patterns of thought and activity learn by observing the results of actions. Learning happens, but there is no self as either the manager of the learning process or the repository of what gets learned.
On responsibility: Eating breakfast before going to an outdoor workday – that responsibility resides here. But it doesn’t seem like an “I” self needs to be responsible for this to happen reliably. Along these lines, it seems like responsibility for actions and speech resides here, especially when it comes to preventing harm. There are mental factors that arise urging action (or non action) to prevent or limit harm. Like it my cat became seriously injured I think it would feel terrible to not get her medical treatment. Urges to take action to get her medical treatment would keep coming up and the emotions from not doing so would feel awful. So there doesn’t need to be a self in order for “me” to take responsibility for the things and beings in my life I should be accountable to – arising thoughts, feelings, urges, and intentions will do it if there’s not a confused, selfish experience that gums up the works.
The responsibility to being more and more aligned with the flow of life feels like it follows from this, that it is implied by the word response-ability. Though it may seem like responsiveness or responsibility to the “flow of life” points backwards towards a self, this is revealed upon investigation not to be the case.
For example, when I was meditating today the helpful thought arose that I should notice body sensations and sound, not just thoughts. There can be a tightness for moment that feels like a self produced this and that there is an “I” that is guiding, or at least nudging, a spiritual maturation process. “Should I listen to that thought?” “I” wondered. But all of these are just thoughts and volitions – a self isn’t necessary to guide a process of increasing ease and alignment with the flow of life. And a self couldn’t do this even if a self existed. Because life is too varied and complex. And it is constantly moving and without any fixed entities, so a fixed entity of any kind couldn’t be responsible for the process (or even function with any kind of effectiveness or reliability whatsoever).
6) Anything to add?
This is so cool! This process and community are simply awesome. I am grateful for the depth of your engagement and care, and feel very fortunate. If any other guides see things in here to dig into more I would be grateful for any and all help, questioning, and advice. I have an intention to use the opportunity of this life to help others, including to awaken. This inquiry process has planted many seeds.< The other guides will also read your answers, and if they have any questions, they’ll ask you.>
With enormous gratitude and some awe,
Amy
-
Iconoclast
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:51 am
Re: RedwoodsAndBerries
Hi Amy,
There are no further questions from the other guides, so it appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed! But as you know, there is no gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey.
Congratulations, and thank you for your openness, honesty, and willingness to look so deeply throughout our inquiry.
What happens next?
You should soon receive an email notifying you of a private message (PM) on the LU forum. This message will invite you to join LU's Facebook groups and provide additional information that may interest you.
Your username will change from green to blue, and our thread will be moved to the Archive section of the forum. You will still be able to access it.
This is just the beginning of further exploration. Old beliefs, habitual thought patterns, and emotional reactions may continue to arise and dissolve. The process can be emotional and nonlinear. Feelings and emotions may surface to be seen and felt, so keep looking whenever something comes up.
1. LU support groups and online meetings
LU has several support groups where you can connect with others, share experiences, ask questions, and continue exploring. Some are run by senior LU guides and are free of charge.
Luchana and Lubo
They offer free Zoom meetings.
Please contact Luchana for details, links, and schedules:
luchanauzunova@gmail.com
Ilona Ciunaite
Ilona, one of the founders of LU, offers monthly meetings.
• Email: admin@ilonaciunaite.com
• Website: https://ilonaciunaite.com/
You can contact her to sign up for meeting notifications.
For further information about LU's support groups (zoom meetings), see:
https://liberationunleashed.com/nation/ ... m.php?f=49
You can also participate in discussions in LU's Facebook groups once you have access.
Vince Schubert
To encourage and facilitate your continuing discovery, Vince Schubert invites you to attend zoom meetings that happen 4 times each week where this (discovery) is experienced by like-minded others.
You could email him if you would like to be added to the notification list (vinceschubert@gmail.com)
There is a meetup every Saturday at 10 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and one each Monday 6 am ( Sydney Australia time)
and each Wednesday at 6 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and every Friday 9 am (Sydney time) - never published.
You can check your local time here: https://www.worldtimebuddy.com
Please note that it's always the same time on the same link.
Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
Click here to Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
You're welcome to just turn up for these.
Vince Schubert also has a YouTube channel.
2. Further exploration: The Ten Fetters
One structured approach to continued inquiry is the Ten Fetters model. LU's initial inquiry is commonly associated with the first three fetters. The remaining fetters offer a framework for exploring further beliefs, identification, and habitual patterns.
An overview of the Ten Fetters is available here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)
Several teachers and communities offer resources and support for this exploration.
Kevin Shanilec — Simply the Seen
Kevin provides detailed instructions for exploring the fetters:
https://www.simplytheseen.com/
You may also enjoy this conversation between Ilona and Kevin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWfBHN6oRk
Pernille Damore and Todd Lent
Pernille and Todd offer a somewhat different, more psychologically oriented approach to the fetters, with many videos devoted to individual fetters.
Their YouTube resources include Unfettered Mindfulness and The Awakening Curriculum:
https://www.youtube.com/@TheAwakeningCurriculum
For information about joining their Inquiry Group, contact:
unfetteredmindfulness@gmail.com
Christiane Michelberger — Finding Awakening
Christiane's work and community continue the exploration of the fetters, particularly in the tradition associated with Kevin's approach.
Website:
https://findingawakening.com/about/
Facebook community:
https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1Av8vfhMct/
3. Angelo DiLullo — Self and No-Self
You might also enjoy Angelo DiLullo's video Self and No-Self, which discusses how the awakening process can deepen naturally when it is not resisted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X_Xpd10pV0&t=38s
4. Additional resources
The following content could be useful for you:
https://1ness.info/Discover_Awakening_Flash_Cards.html
https://1ness.info/Discover_Awakening_E ... oints.html
https://1ness.info/Discover_Awakening_P ... quiry.html
5. Becoming an LU guide
You might consider becoming an LU guide yourself, if you feel drawn to it. I believe you can be a very good guide!
Guiding others can be rewarding and can deepen your own understanding. It may also reveal blind spots and areas where further looking would be helpful.
LU offers mentoring for new guides. If guiding interests you at some point, we can explore the possibilities and help you connect with an experienced mentor.
Staying in touch
It has been a pleasure exploring these questions with you. You are always welcome to contact me if you have questions, encounter difficulties, or simply want to explore something together. You can start a new thread in the Unleashed forum if you want, or contact me privately. I'll also send you my contact information through a PM in case you'd like to stay in touch.
Thank you again for the opportunity to accompany you in this inquiry.
Much love,
Necip
There are no further questions from the other guides, so it appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed! But as you know, there is no gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey.
Congratulations, and thank you for your openness, honesty, and willingness to look so deeply throughout our inquiry.
What happens next?
You should soon receive an email notifying you of a private message (PM) on the LU forum. This message will invite you to join LU's Facebook groups and provide additional information that may interest you.
Your username will change from green to blue, and our thread will be moved to the Archive section of the forum. You will still be able to access it.
This is just the beginning of further exploration. Old beliefs, habitual thought patterns, and emotional reactions may continue to arise and dissolve. The process can be emotional and nonlinear. Feelings and emotions may surface to be seen and felt, so keep looking whenever something comes up.
1. LU support groups and online meetings
LU has several support groups where you can connect with others, share experiences, ask questions, and continue exploring. Some are run by senior LU guides and are free of charge.
Luchana and Lubo
They offer free Zoom meetings.
Please contact Luchana for details, links, and schedules:
luchanauzunova@gmail.com
Ilona Ciunaite
Ilona, one of the founders of LU, offers monthly meetings.
• Email: admin@ilonaciunaite.com
• Website: https://ilonaciunaite.com/
You can contact her to sign up for meeting notifications.
For further information about LU's support groups (zoom meetings), see:
https://liberationunleashed.com/nation/ ... m.php?f=49
You can also participate in discussions in LU's Facebook groups once you have access.
Vince Schubert
To encourage and facilitate your continuing discovery, Vince Schubert invites you to attend zoom meetings that happen 4 times each week where this (discovery) is experienced by like-minded others.
You could email him if you would like to be added to the notification list (vinceschubert@gmail.com)
There is a meetup every Saturday at 10 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and one each Monday 6 am ( Sydney Australia time)
and each Wednesday at 6 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and every Friday 9 am (Sydney time) - never published.
You can check your local time here: https://www.worldtimebuddy.com
Please note that it's always the same time on the same link.
Arriving late and leaving early is fine.
Click here to Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
You're welcome to just turn up for these.
Vince Schubert also has a YouTube channel.
2. Further exploration: The Ten Fetters
One structured approach to continued inquiry is the Ten Fetters model. LU's initial inquiry is commonly associated with the first three fetters. The remaining fetters offer a framework for exploring further beliefs, identification, and habitual patterns.
An overview of the Ten Fetters is available here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)
Several teachers and communities offer resources and support for this exploration.
Kevin Shanilec — Simply the Seen
Kevin provides detailed instructions for exploring the fetters:
https://www.simplytheseen.com/
You may also enjoy this conversation between Ilona and Kevin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWfBHN6oRk
Pernille Damore and Todd Lent
Pernille and Todd offer a somewhat different, more psychologically oriented approach to the fetters, with many videos devoted to individual fetters.
Their YouTube resources include Unfettered Mindfulness and The Awakening Curriculum:
https://www.youtube.com/@TheAwakeningCurriculum
For information about joining their Inquiry Group, contact:
unfetteredmindfulness@gmail.com
Christiane Michelberger — Finding Awakening
Christiane's work and community continue the exploration of the fetters, particularly in the tradition associated with Kevin's approach.
Website:
https://findingawakening.com/about/
Facebook community:
https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1Av8vfhMct/
3. Angelo DiLullo — Self and No-Self
You might also enjoy Angelo DiLullo's video Self and No-Self, which discusses how the awakening process can deepen naturally when it is not resisted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X_Xpd10pV0&t=38s
4. Additional resources
The following content could be useful for you:
https://1ness.info/Discover_Awakening_Flash_Cards.html
https://1ness.info/Discover_Awakening_E ... oints.html
https://1ness.info/Discover_Awakening_P ... quiry.html
5. Becoming an LU guide
You might consider becoming an LU guide yourself, if you feel drawn to it. I believe you can be a very good guide!
Guiding others can be rewarding and can deepen your own understanding. It may also reveal blind spots and areas where further looking would be helpful.
LU offers mentoring for new guides. If guiding interests you at some point, we can explore the possibilities and help you connect with an experienced mentor.
Staying in touch
It has been a pleasure exploring these questions with you. You are always welcome to contact me if you have questions, encounter difficulties, or simply want to explore something together. You can start a new thread in the Unleashed forum if you want, or contact me privately. I'll also send you my contact information through a PM in case you'd like to stay in touch.
Thank you again for the opportunity to accompany you in this inquiry.
Much love,
Necip
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