RedwoodsAndBerries

[Redwoods0]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That experience happens but there is no “self” it happens to. When suffering and tension come up, this is because there is a gripping. The gripping is wanting to make things permanent so there can be an unchanging self, but it doesn’t work.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’ve been having glimpses of a different way of relating to experience, that are more easeful and joyful. I want to “break through” or let go of whatever is blocking full comprehension of anatta/non self. The more self that is let go of, the more energy there is for helping others, for forgiving, for sharing, for kindness and fun. Just in the last few days something is very different—much lighter. I connected with a dharma friend a few days ago who has been posting on LU and the conversation was inspiring and moving for me. I can see the changes in her and the ease from a year previous when we last spoke. She suggested I try LU. It’s a little tricky to answer this because when I try to say what “I” am “looking for” the old feeling of ambition and tightening comes up and I am coming to understand that is not the way.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would love to feel encouraged by someone who has crossed this threshold and can help me feel it is a do able thing. And to be supported if I do cross it and if I feel any chaotic or fearful feelings along the way. The old me has had fantasies of stream entry which led to fear or megalomaniacal feelings, neither of which I know has any relation to reality. It would be great to have someone point in the right direction at key moments, offer reassurance around fear, and who I can share the joy and humor of this investigation with—I’ve gotten a lot of laughs from spiritual practice as things have gotten lighter! I teach creative writing for a job and have become a bit worn out on writing as a practice, so I’ll probably try to be truthful, direct, and on the briefer side when I post (or maybe it will go in the opposite direction as I am so used to writing). My mind loves to investigate—sometimes so much I can’t sleep—and regularly investigates in dreams, lucid and non-lucid. So my guide should perhaps be someone who doesn’t mind hearing about relevant dreams (though again, I intend to keep these not too long). I am deeply grateful for the time and energy of the guides and respectful of the forum, and will do my best not to unintentionally stray from the site’s guidelines.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Seeking has been lifelong and took the form of writing – nonfiction and fiction – from early life. Also as a kid I tried various spiritual practices I’d read about (like astral projection and chakra meditation) and had some intense moments then got knocked back by fear and thus gave those up. I wanted to meditate as a young person but there was a lot of gunk in the system and I couldn’t. After a lot of suffering, I started Buddhist meditation in 2016 at around age 40 and was exposed to noting practice, then did vipassana in the Goenka tradition. I moved on to Thai forest monastic teachers and, realizing rigidity was not the way, began exploring something that felt less goal oriented for me. For the last 9 years I have done several silent retreats a year, the longest being 13 days. There was a lot of aversive conditioning in my system and a lot of hatefulness to observe, tolerate, and eventually that became easier to accept and less personal. I also visited Luong Phor Ganha’s monastery in Thailand and the focus there on generosity and ethics, plus the good friendship of people there, helped chip away at the Western conditioning I was coming in with of wanting to improve “my” practice in a self focused way.

I now study with a lay teacher who teachers Daoist and Buddhist practices, and who inspired me to shift focus to anatta/nonself, and a Thervada monastic teacher whose words at the deeper level sound non dual to me. It is greatly inspiring to be around awakened people and see how they speak and operate in the world. Both teachers emphasize inquiry and I have tried this a number of ways. My teacher pulls the Buddha’s directives as fortunes out of a hat from New Years Eve and I was thrilled this year to get “you should be wise…you should be an inquirer.” Right now I am asking experiences of suffering the questions the Buddha asked in the Anattalakana sutta: is this permanent? Being impermanent, is it happiness or suffering, reliable or unreliable? Being impermanent or suffering, does it make sense to call it me, mine or myself – to build a self on it? I’m finding everything breaking down under this set of questions. Though this is a bit time consuming, it is pulverizing beliefs and so I’ve been making an attempt to try it on the things I least want to try it on – conditioning that for whatever reason my mind wants to cordons off as outside the scope of inquiry.

Just the night before last as I was awake in the night being assailed by thoughts I was able to see that the thoughts were the offspring of earlier choices, not the products of any fixed self. Right now if I question whatever is happening I can feel into this understanding and feel a brief lightness and effervescence as the tightness dissolves– but the general experience of thoughts and other things is still coming up as tight moment to moment, as gelled up and selfified somehow.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Iconoclast]

Hi,

My name is Necip, and I’d be happy to be your guide, if you’d like.

If you haven’t already read the disclaimer, please do so before we begin. You can find it here:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Please also read “Liberation Unleashed is not…” in the LU FAQs:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Below is a short video explaining how to use the Quote Function. Please watch it before posting your replies. It’s also a good idea to use the Preview button to check that everything looks right before clicking “Submit.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Here are a few basic guidelines for our inquiry:

1. Please stay in regular contact throughout the inquiry, ideally checking in each day or at least every other day. If circumstances prevent you from replying for a while, just leave a short note in your thread so I know you’ll be away.

2. Your responses are not being graded or evaluated as right or wrong. What matters is reporting what you genuinely find, so please be completely candid about whatever comes up during the investigation.

3. Our inquiry will focus on what can be directly noticed here and now (Actual Experience, or AE): seeing/color, hearing/sound, bodily sensation, smell, taste, and thoughts as they are noticed. Try not to get drawn into lengthy theories, intellectual analysis, or philosophical explanations, since these can distract from simply looking at experience. The purpose here is not to create a better version of yourself; rather, we are investigating whether the “self” assumed to need improvement can actually be found.

4. For the duration of this inquiry, I’d like you to temporarily set aside other spiritual systems, teachings, techniques, rituals, and related reading. Give this investigation your full attention and examine what is actually present in experience as directly as possible. If meditation is already part of your normal daily routine, you are welcome to continue with it, although meditation is not required for this exploration.

5. One practical suggestion: online systems occasionally fail, and a carefully written reply can sometimes disappear. To avoid losing your work, consider copying my questions into a separate document, writing and saving your answers there, and then posting the completed response to your thread. Keeping a backup can save you from having to write everything again.

Before we begin the inquiry itself, I’d like to get a clear picture of what you currently expect or hope might come from it. There are no right or wrong answers here, simply answer openly from your present understanding and expectations.

What do you expect your everyday life to be like as a result of this exploration?

Do you anticipate any changes in yourself? If so, what kind?

What do you imagine will be different from the way things are now?

Is there something you currently feel is lacking, unresolved, or that you hope this inquiry will provide?

By the way, what would you like me to call you, and what time zone are you in?

Much love,

Necip

[Redwoods0]

Hello Necip,

Thank you so much for doing this work and responding here! Things have unfolded for me in the weeks since I posted. I think shift may have already occurred to non-self as a stable lived experience. So I’ll answer these questions including both expectations and what I’ve actually noticed since this change.

What do you expect your everyday life to be like as a result of this exploration?

I expected to feel a sense of relief and for things to get easier, and this has been the case. There were a couple of bumpy weeks of strong and chaotic emotions coming through. It was also intense to realize how changeable reality was moment to moment and that I had no control over what came through and when, etc. But because there was now an understanding that none of what was coming through was me, mine or controllable, I have been able to just be like “wow, check that out” without taking it personally. Even very painful stuff is very painful but not personal. So my everyday life is the same but there’s more energy and ease.

Do you anticipate any changes in yourself? If so, what kind?

I notice more skillful behavior and positive reactions to that from other people. It’s easier to do helpful things as I’m not caught up in getting my egoic need met. For example, going bowling and just wanting everyone to have a good time and be relieved of the stress they’ve been going through – no interest in my bowling performance as such. When I bowled well it made others try harder and get excited by trying hard, when I bowled poorly they got to win. It made no difference if I won or lost – only what was good for everyone mattered.

What do you imagine will be different from the way things are now?

I feel relieved of fear and stress about the future. Everything is connected so it’s going to work out one way or another. I can just see what is beneficial for all in each moment and do my best – the unfolding isn’t up to me. I’m looking forward this year to doing my same job but being better at listening and supporting others. And well, truthfully I'm a little ugh about my job starting to get busy again - but that's just stuff coming through too. Its not all going to feel good or be easy and the selfing mechanisms are still in full swing. The difference is on a core level I no longer believe them or believe in the self.

Is there something you currently feel is lacking, unresolved, or that you hope this inquiry will provide?

Nope! I’m just curious and going through the process in the hope this will create an archive that helps others. And/or that I’ll learn/realize things I don’t know yet, which will in turn help everyone.

By the way, what would you like me to call you, and what time zone are you in?

Amy. US Pacific Time.

Lots of love and much gratitude!

[Iconoclast]

Hi Amy,

I’m very glad to hear that “you” have gone through such a process in the past few weeks. You could be ready for the final questions, but before that let’s examine a few things together.

You wrote, “I can just see what is beneficial for all in each moment and do my best – the unfolding isn’t up to me.”

Is there anyone there who can know what is best for all?

Is there a “you” that can choose what is best?

What is the difference between selfing and believing in a self?

How and why do you think selfing continues after seeing that there is no self? What is the mechanism there? How does selfing gain volume (thought × feeling × time), and how does it work?

Please use the quote function when answering each question, so it’s clear which question you’re responding to.

Necip

[Redwoods0]

Hi Necip,

Thank you for all of this encouragement and your time!

Is there anyone there who can know what is best for all?

No

Is there a “you” that can choose what is best?

No

What is the difference between selfing and believing in a self?

Selfing is a process. To believe in the self is to believe there is something that doesn’t change, that carries through from moment to moment within us – to believe that when “I” say, “I’ll do that tomorrow” that there is an “I” that’s the same day to day.

“I” might still say something like that but who knows what will happen tomorrow and what will show up? “I” can’t control or truly plan. Though “I” am literally planning out a class to teach tomorrow, all “I” can have now is an intention to show up well tomorrow – a consistent self is not going to carry over to tomorrow and actually be there when the class happens.

How and why do you think selfing continues after seeing that there is no self? What is the mechanism there?

There are habits that continue due to past actions/habits/conditions. This is like balls bouncing down a street. They are going to keep bouncing until they stop on their own and there isn’t any self to stop or direct them. If there was a self then the selfing habits would stop immediately at realization because there would be a sort of command center that would enact this change. But there is no self – there’s no command center. So thoughts like “I did…” keep bouncing around. “I” get gummed up in whatever is going on for some amount of time but then that gripped up experience passes and it’s clear that the truth of things is to be uncontrolled by anything and flowing. “I” sometimes just need a moment to check out the thing that feels tight and self-y, but then it falls apart.

How does selfing gain volume (thought × feeling × time), and how does it work?

This is a very interesting question! I haven’t thought about it this way before. But it seems to me this is what happens:
A thought arises. Then the labelling function of the “I” comes in saying, “I thought that” or “I did that.” Simultaneously feeling arises, either a warm good feels or an icky bad feeling. There’s a habit pattern of wanting to keep the good feeling going, so more thoughts pile on along the lines of “it was really good I did that” or “I should do this more in the future.” And then a fantasy might get going about how “I” am going to do this or something else related in the future. This might be a conversation with someone in my head and it might go on for some time.

Here “I” am caught though on some level there’s some awareness it is happening, that time is passing (which was not true before). Then an interrupting function occurs like “wait, what’s going on here?” And then “I” often think, “there’s a whole lot of thoughts going on – just a process – but wow, that sure is a lot of thoughts.” Then “I” remember thoughts do that, that this is a ground in habit and “I” don’t worry about it. Things move on from there in whatever direction they do.
The first two weeks things felt stickier and it seemed “I” was getting grabbed and confused for longer, but it seems its becoming easier, or that the getting grabbed is getting noticed sooner, or maybe just taken even less personally (it seems like a lot of spinning thought just need to spin for quite a long time and then it gets quite silent for periods - all this is understood to be happening on its own). Or maybe this is just an easy patch, I don’t know.

Thank you for continuing guidance - it is much appreciated!
Amy

[Iconoclast]

Hi Amy,

Before moving on to the final questions, I'd like to explore a few things.

1. Could you describe what happened a couple of weeks ago when the shift occurred? What exactly changed in your experience?
2. Does life happen to you, is there an owner of the experience?
3. What is the difference between good and bad, and pleasant and unpleasant?
4. How do responsibility, intention and choice work now? What can you find in direct experience?
5. What is suffering? How does it arise?
6. How does identification happen in direct experience?
7. What is real?

Please look at what is actually happening in direct experience rather than working out the answers intellectually. Remember to use the quote function when replying.

Necip

[Redwoods0]

Hi Necip,

Thank you so much for this!

1. Could you describe what happened a couple of weeks ago when the shift occurred? What exactly changed in your experience?

It was now about three and half weeks ago. I had been feeling beat up by thoughts, especially when I was awake in the middle of the night, night after night. I would try to just be aware of them as phenomena and not get involved in the content but I still felt battered by the loudness and frequency of the thoughts and just wanted to be asleep.

Then something happened where I saw the thoughts as choices – as caused by past choices. That was the word that came up in the mind – ‘choices.’ It was like the thoughts were balls bouncing down a street, not caused by a self.

Then the next night there were tons of thoughts again but they were known not to be mine. At one point it arose that the thoughts ‘sounded like the ocean.’ It just didn’t matter that there were tons of thoughts and that I was awake instead of asleep – it was just stuff happening, same as plants blooming or bubbles coming out of a bubble wand, not personal or troubling. It was actually so cool just watching all this flow.

It’s seemed like since then the ordinary way of experience is continual flow. There’s a gripping up that happens (though it’s happening less and less and for shorter and shorter duration, so maybe not even happening anymore?) but then the system returns to knowing flow.

It used to be that I’d be dissociative and moments would be skipped. It doesn’t seem like moments are skipped anymore really – mundane moments of the day are clearly experienced: I see the paper towel being folded four times, whereas that kind of moment would have been overwritten or unseen before. In a way, every moment now seems the same. It used to be that there was a favorite part of the day and the parts of the day I disliked. Now aliveness is all the same in some way – it’s just whatever is happening now.

2. Does life happen to you, is there an owner of the experience?

Life happens to life, not to a “me.” “I” perceive myself as located in a place, in a body, but this is just a perception. No one owns or records experience. Truthfully, ideations like these do kick up. A thought arises like, “I should do x…” And then I have to be like, “where is this ‘I’ that’s going to do x?” and then notice it can’t be located because it doesn’t exist. It seems clear there’s no “I” in the present but for past and future I sometimes need to disentangle the thought habits that want to believe there was an “I” or will be an “I” to carry forward the insights happening now about non-self – which seems like a dangerous trap best avoided.

3. What is the difference between good and bad, and pleasant and unpleasant?

Good and bad don’t exist – they are judgements that come from a given vantage point and context. If the vantage point, timeline, or context changes, they change and can even switch places.

Pleasant is a feeling in the body my system tends to like and want more of – warm, cozy, comforting. Unpleasant is an experience of feeling that is jarring, painful etc. My system wants to get away from it or what caused it.

4. How do responsibility, intention and choice work now? What can you find in direct experience?

What excellent and tough questions! Hmm…

There’s a strong desire not to harm, feelings of empathy. Sometimes it’s easy to let the larger intelligence of the universe (or whatever one wants to call it) run the show. Like if there’s a spider in my house I talk to it kindly and capture it in a jar – this comes from kindness arising and past habit. When I go to let it go outside sometimes I say: universe tell me where to go. I watch myself walking instead of planning where to walk, figuring I’ll head to a bush that’s good for the spider.

Other choices might not be so clear. It seems a feeling comes and a choice gets made but it’s not me making it. “I” could force a choice, but that seems to have gone badly in the past, so it seems better in flow and not against it. Even when this is against “my” preferences, which it often is! “I” don’t want to do x but it’s better to do x now, so x is tending to get done. It’s interesting to watch this.

When there isn’t clarity, I just let a choice get made and then watch what comes of it. Choices get made and things go as they go. It feels like there is an “ego override” switch but that it should not be pulled as this often makes a mess of things. This switch would just be some kind of selfing process making the decision using what it thinks is logic.

Intention seems to be kind and aligned with the good. But sometimes I do something and afterward I feel weird and gross because something was off. I just feel this feeling and imagine that helps behavior shift and learn to be more aligned in the future.

Intention feels different and I’m actually confused about this. Like when I meditate I no longer want to try to make anything go a certain way using ego or force. So I’ve just kind of been sitting there watching things arise and go away. At the same time, a thought arose during a walk today that attention should be more with the physical senses, not just floating away with thoughts. I realized I could think of this as a memo from the non-self greater intelligence of the universe instead of an ego intention. Feeling feet on pavement and wind on skin felt beneficial afterwards.

I do sometimes wonder how to manage career choices in all this – but it also seems when “I” align without using ego, things work out. When force or selfishness is not used, things tend to work out in working life.

5. What is suffering? How does it arise?

Life is constantly flowing and uncontrolled. When attempts to control or stop it happen, suffering arises.

6. How does identification happen in direct experience?

A feeling, thought or body sensation happens. Identification happens when it either feels solid and not changing/flowing or when the labelling mechanism says, “my pain”, “my desk”, or “my problem” after the feeling, thought, or body sensation is felt. Or both.

“My problem” is a good example. It’s probably made of a body sensation and a feeling which triggers thoughts or the opposite – a thought that triggers a body sensation and a feeling, in my past experience. It can feel like a solid mass in experience with the added forward moving stress that it seems one has to think one’s way to “solving” “it.”

Really the “I” is created by the experience. A few months ago there was some stress in my life and the thought arose: “I’m caught.” Then the insight arose: “Of course ‘you’re’ caught – the ‘you’ is the caught!” That there’s actually no “you” outside experiences of being caught/identification.

7. What is real?

I’m not sure I understand what ‘real’ means in this question.

If real is defined as having effects, I’d say the physical world is real, the senses are real, thoughts happen, feelings happen. The constantly changing nature of reality is real, and the way it can’t ever be stopped. The body ages and falls apart in time and death happens, how that cannot be stopped. Actions have consequences that play out.

I can say more but I actually struggle with this question, and am continuing to investigate. What is ‘real’? And why this question matters. (Other than knowing a personal self is not a real, measurable or locatable thing.)

With much gratitude,
Amy

[Iconoclast]

Hi Amy,

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful responses. Let's explore a few points further regarding the fourth question especially.

1. Past and future self

You mentioned that thoughts about a past or future "I" sometimes arise and need to be disentangled.

When this happens, what exactly does the disentangling? How does it occur?

Can you find the past or future in direct experience?

How does selfing happen in relation to the past or future?

Let's assume that there is an imagined cube (the width, length and height are thought x feeling x psychological time). Can you see how this cube gains volume each time "selfing" takes place in relation to past or future? Please observe this "cube" during the day and mention two specific instances as to how it gains volume.

2. Intention, planning and choice

Do intentional thoughts imply a self?

Do planning, evaluating, directing attention and conscious effort require a self?

You wrote, "I could force a choice." Is there a self that can force a choice?

Is there any difference, in terms of the existence of a doer, between forcing a choice and letting a choice happen?

Does letting go of selfing mean giving up conscious planning and making choices?

3. The "ego override" switch

You mentioned an "ego override" switch.

When this switch seems to be activated, what exactly happens in direct experience? Is there anyone operating it?

Is there anyone who can choose whether to interfere with the flow?

When you resist the flow, is that resistance itself outside the flow?

You suggested that the "ego override" switch should not be used. What decides that it should not be used?

4. Universal intelligence ("greater intelligence of the universe")

Regarding what you call the "greater intelligence of the universe":

Is it an agent or a "self"? What can you actually find in direct experience?

Please remember to use the quote function when replying to each and every question.

Much love,

Necip

[Redwoods0]

Hi Necip,

Thank you for these profoundly challenging questions. They really pushed a deep look at experience.

[<- And, to be honest, my training is as a writer so I know how to write in passive voice (avoiding the “I”) or active voice (using “I” as the subject of the sentence). If I write “I” not in quotes, I worry it will communicate a belief in a steady self, but if I simply switch to passive voice – no “I” sentences – it feels like a semantic trick. So I will try to be as honest as possible even though “I” (not in quotes) does not mean in a sentence what it used to. I hope that makes sense.]

You mentioned that thoughts about a past or future "I" sometimes arise and need to be disentangled. When this happens, what exactly does the disentangling? How does it occur?

Great questions. I explored this using an example.

Sometimes a thought arises like, “I used to have bad morality.” For a minute the belief feels pretty packaged and true. Then something asks, “where is this ‘I’ that had bad morality, then or now?” The urge to ask is triggered by the word “I” sounding off or wrong. A series of images and feelings is then triggered. It becomes clear that in this time period in the past there were urges, there were choices, there were thoughts and sensations—but there was clearly not a self. This is not so hard to see in this case as the choices seemed chaotic, and were – it makes sense that no one was in charge. But it also holds true for positive choices. Also sometimes when I get caught I look at a photo of me as a kid and ask, “is there a self in this photo?” I can then see there is not.

For the future, the thought arose, “I should get ahead on work because next week is going to be busy.” Then the “I” triggers an off feeling, whereupon the question gets asked, “where is this I…?” An image arises of me working, then an imprint of a mood that is expected. It’s a fabricated, imagined experience but it feels real enough to be identified with for a moment, as if I believe: this current me will do that future thing, as me. But then there’s the realization that there is no telling what will happen or what feelings will arise if and when I do this work. So this constructed experience in the present is not actually linked to any future moment. It’s just a mirage. And generally the future does not match the one imagined, I’ve been noticing.

So: what does the disentangling is a habit pattern, a series that plays out triggered at times by the word “I” in the mind.

Can you find the past or future in direct experience?

I find images – visual images – and whiffs of feeling in current experience. They are constructed in the present, they have not actually come in a chunk from the past. (Generally speaking – I once on meditation retreat experienced a blip of something that felt like it had never been remembered before. It was a totally ordinary non moment, not a trauma and I doubt it had ever been remembered before, but this came out of nowhere and felt very unintentional and non self.)

I just hit the wrong button on my computer and a photo appeared. I watched my mind reconstruct a memory. Or maybe I should say construct. An image in the mind of fabric, the side of a house – this appeared but it certainly wasn’t a self that was choosing or doing it. These were just reactions.

How does selfing happen in relation to the past or future?

Images and feelings arise marked as past or future, then identification happens. Instead of seeing them as images and feelings, there’s a recognition that pops off saying, that’s me. It’s a perception, matching the proud, ingrained rubric of a me-story to the images/feelings marked as past or future. Sometimes it takes having a quiet moment to check this against reality.

Let's assume that there is an imagined cube (the width, length and height are thought x feeling x psychological time). Can you see how this cube gains volume each time "selfing" takes place in relation to past or future? Please observe this "cube" during the day and mention two specific instances as to how it gains volume.

What a great metaphor! I do see this.

One example, repeated thoughts about a friend arose today: “she wants me to see things her way.” I sort of swatted it away, knowing the “me” in there wasn’t real (or the “she” for that matter) but it came up repeatedly. Until it started to me feel maybe I had a problem I had to do something about. So this was psychological time – the thoughts weren’t back to back but the repeated pings at random moments over a few hours made the cube feel fuller.

Example 2: “my” back has been hurting on and off for a few weeks. Thoughts arise (why does it hurt? What should I do? Do I need a new mattress?), feelings arise (mild pain and fear). And as day after day this all comes around (psychological time), it does start to feel like the back and the pain are me (like there’s a self that’s stuck in/with the body), instead of it just being a body that should be cared for but will fall apart at some point regardless. This is a tough one – the cube can feel quite full and heavy, until the back pain is examined and known to be impermanent and unpredictable/unreliable and therefore not a place to try to build a lasting self.

Do intentional thoughts imply a self?

No – urges and intentions arise without a self to mediate them. Like I just got up to get water. No one did that. It’s just that thirst arose and then the body got up.

Do planning, evaluating, directing attention and conscious effort require a self?

No. Planning is a function of the habit of planning.

Directing attention is a function of habits, patterns, intention, momentum, psychological habit patterns (like PTSD), physiology (like hunger), and who knows what else. But there isn’t any conductor in charge of it.

Conscious effort: “I” make a big effort on the exercise bike to get my phone screen to indicate a heart rate above a certain level while working out. There’s much conscious effort here, plus beliefs (that this is healthy), patterns of attention (checking the screen), as well as peddling hard and feeling tired. But there’s no self that is orchestrating the workout. Each aspect feeds the others but nothing is a central controller. “I” can even know how ridiculous this is while still sweating really hard and trying really hard.

You wrote, "I could force a choice." Is there a self that can force a choice?

No.

Is there any difference, in terms of the existence of a doer, between forcing a choice and letting a choice happen?

I now see there is not. Neither is done by a self. But things done with force feel more like they are done by a self sometimes for me.

Does letting go of selfing mean giving up conscious planning and making choices?

No, I suppose not. Because a decision got made to answer these questions instead of working ahead on job work. Planning happened and choices happened. No self had to participate. (Though a labelling mechanism sure likes to come in after the fact and say, “I chose…”).

You mentioned an "ego override" switch. When this switch seems to be activated, what exactly happens in direct experience? Is there anyone operating it?

Now that I think about it, its more like an urge arises. Some feeling arises with it that feels off or bad. So generally I don’t act on urges like that now. But one time a couple of weeks ago (after the shift) I decided to pet my cat even though I had the sense she didn’t want to be pet – just to test what I was calling the “ego override switch.” The cat got up and walked away. I felt bad. But there wasn’t anyone operating the switch. Just an urge to pet the cat and an urge to do what felt bad in order to test all this out. Just urges.

Is there anyone who can choose whether to interfere with the flow?

No.

When you resist the flow, is that resistance itself outside the flow?

Now that you mention it – no – it is not.

You suggested that the "ego override" switch should not be used. What decides that it should not be used?

A helpful feeling of dread arising at the right moment! (Its great to realize this.)

Regarding what you call the "greater intelligence of the universe": Is it an agent or a "self"? What can you actually find in direct experience?

It is not a self in the sense that it is not separate from anything else. To be an agent it would need to direct things separate from itself, but it is not separate from anything else. It cannot be located or felt with the senses.

So I cannot find, or at least, pin this down in my direct experience. What can be seen through direct experience are things like the patterns on butterfly wings – how amazing they are. And that it feels insincere to say that nothing makes those patterns, that they are random. But also that it also feels insincere to say that something makes those patterns, that they are not random. So I’d say what I’m talking about here is unseparate from anything else and neither nothing nor something. It could just be called existence, doing its thing.

Thank you for this wonderful inquiry, and your profound attention, patience and care.

Lots of love,
Amy

[Iconoclast]

Hi Amy,

Very good responses! I believe you are now ready for the final questions.
Please remember to use the quote function when replying to each question.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

[Redwoods0]

Hi Necip,

Today I had to work and could not give answering these enough time and attention. And also this inquiry has been really helpful and it seemed beneficial to look more into daily experience today using yesterday’s questions. I intend to answer these tomorrow. Thank you for being patient.

With much gratitude,
Ammi

[Iconoclast]

Of course, Amy. You can reply whenever is convenient for you. There’s no rush. The other guides will also read your answers, and if they have any questions, they’ll ask you.
I’m glad yesterday’s exercises were helpful to you. I’m really happy for you!

Much love,

Necip

[Redwoods0]

Hi Necip,

Thank you for the reassurance and warmth, and for everything.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity of 'self', 'me' 'I' and there never was. I looked through childhood photos today and it was interesting to see what I remembered and what those memories were made of – fragments of sense detail, fragments of previously remembered memories like clothing that had been washed many times. There’s a clinging feeling, like craving for a favorite food, to the idea that these images are of “me.” There’s a body that’s kept growing, changing and replacing itself, and chains of thought pinging forward (some continuity, much discontinuity). But there was not a self at any point along the way.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

On a moment to moment level, the illusion starts in any number of ways.

In one of them that just happened, I made eye contact with the cat, and then a “me” feeling arose. I perceived the cat as a separate entity perceiving me and I identified with the feeling of consciousness – hers and mine. It can seem like consciousness and recognition point backwards towards selves, but when I check there is just consciousness – not a cat and human self who are controlling or housing consciousness.

But if that wasn’t known the “me” feeling would also encompass the feeling of the body walking in front of the cat, the sight of legs and arms moving. The certainty that is felt that perceptions are accurate (of floor, cat etc.) seems to also point backwards towards a self. Thoughts seem to point backwards towards a self making the thoughts, and on top of it many thoughts start with “I” (because many previous thoughts started with “I” and the habit is very strong). But all of these are just experiences.

Once an experience is labelled “mine” or “me” or “myself” other types of experiences get whirlpooled up into it, creating a sort of tornado of disparate types of experience which becomes a seemingly solid mass that gets misconstrued as a self.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The change for me happened one month ago. So I’ve been getting to do this dialogue during a period of integration, and that has been enormously helpful. I feel like this dialogue has helped broaden the knowing into more areas of life and has helped pull out some roots that wanted to grow back. I don’t think the weed roots would have gotten a foothold, but that there would have been more confusion and strain without this conversation.

Before the change one month ago, the day seemed to be broken up into pieces – periods of time when doing certain activities, moods etc. Now it all seems to be continually flowing. Everything is always changing all the time. At first there was a lot of joy and intense energy and daily life seemed entirely fascinating – I guess that’s still true. The desire for distraction is gone – life happening is fascinating. And the desire to procrastinate, which used to be so strong, is not there – it seems the belief in a self was at the center of that somehow.

The crazy energy I felt right at the change time has relaxed and I’m sleeping more normally (for a couple of weeks I couldn’t sleep or eat normal amounts).

I’ve also been feeling and acting much more relaxed and not defensive – because this is the end of self improvement or self help. If I make a mistake a just apologize and think about how to make things better in the future and move forward. There’s not a self to manage or feel bad about. I have felt some loneliness because this way of seeing the world is so different from how most people see things – it feels painful to hear them beat up on themselves under the false idea they have selves. I just want to tell them they don’t and to stop worrying but I know this won’t actually be well received.

The last few days of this inquiry have pushed me to look deeper and in a more granular way at my actual experience. This has been hugely helpful. It seems to be helping this change in understanding take deeper root. Equanimity has been so strong these last few days. I know not to identify with that and think it will always be like that, but it’s remarkable to feel this way. As someone who was often described as anxious, intense and high strung, it’s wild to feel like there really isn’t anything to worry about in a very fundamental way.

People are reacting to me differently. I can see they are feel more relaxed and safer around me.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It’s been a process of inquiry and practice over time. About 10 months ago I started getting glimpses. A continual moment to moment effort to be diligent in looking picked up steam. I also had a very strong expectation and very strong faith that this would work. Because if there aren’t selves, why wouldn’t efforts to see this not succeed eventually? For the last couple of weeks it felt like the investigation was really running itself, an obsession that ran on its own fuel.

For this inquiry with you, the selfing cube (thoughts x feeling x psychological time) was hugely helpful. And being asked to untangle the selfing process in relation to the past. Also being asked to really look at experiences of intention and choice. That continues to make me look and be very helpful.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

So I was going just now to the kitchen. I saw things that needed to be moved or done and did them, to get ready to make dinner. The hands just did these things, after volitions arose. Then an image arose of a sandwich and then the thought arose, “Its late, I’m tired, maybe a sandwich is good enough.” The body started getting out sandwich things. An image of cheese arose, an image of a pickle. Volition arose in response. Then hands reached inside the fridge for cheese and pickles. After that a thought arose saying, “I made a sandwich.” But the process did not require a self to orchestrate it and no self did.

As for freewill, I was eating the sides next to the sandwich and knew my fork was heading towards a piece of avocado. Then a volition arose that was sort of saying, “you can’t control me” as if resisting the avocado-directed volition to make a point. So the fork stabbed a piece of broccoli instead. The volition that chose the broccoli can feel a self-like because it was connected to a rebellious urge to what might be construed as was free will, but really these are just two urges stemming most likely from two different past patterns. The choice of avocado vs broccoli is not connected to a self – neither choice is preordained and neither is right or wrong because there’s not self to answer to (and no moral quandry in this case, for simplicities sake).

Control: Some volitions get acted on, some don’t. Patterns and mental factors determine which volitions seem worth acting on. Some volitions get weaker and less frequent because they aren’t acted on. Some volitions get acted on and thus reactivated. But no one controls any of the steps in this process.

No selves are controlling anything. But patterns of thought and activity learn by observing the results of actions. Learning happens, but there is no self as either the manager of the learning process or the repository of what gets learned.

6) Anything to add?

< The other guides will also read your answers, and if they have any questions, they’ll ask you.>

This is so cool! This process and community are simply awesome. I am grateful for the depth of your engagement and care, and feel very fortunate. If any other guides see things in here to dig into more I would be grateful for any and all help, questioning, and advice. I have an intention to use the opportunity of this life to help others, including to awaken. This inquiry process has planted many seeds.

With enormous gratitude and some awe,
Amy

[Iconoclast]

Hi Amy,

Great responses! I enjoyed reading them all.

Regarding question 5, you explained decision, intention, free will, choice and control very clearly.

Could you also elaborate on responsibility? What are you responsible for? Please give some examples from everyday life.

Please incorporate your answers to these additional questions into your response to question 5, then resend all six of your answers to the final questions together.

Thank you!

Much love,

Necip

[Redwoods0]

Hi Necip,

Thank you! <3 Here are all six answers together.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity of 'self', 'me' 'I' and there never was. I looked through childhood photos today and it was interesting to see what I remembered and what those memories were made of – fragments of sense detail, fragments of previously remembered memories like clothing that had been washed many times. There’s a clinging feeling, like craving for a favorite food, to the idea that these images are of “me.” There’s a body that’s kept growing, changing and replacing itself, and chains of thought pinging forward (some continuity, much discontinuity). But there was not a self at any point along the way.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

On a moment to moment level, the illusion starts in any number of ways.

In one of them that just happened, I made eye contact with the cat, and then a “me” feeling arose. I perceived the cat as a separate entity perceiving me and I identified with the feeling of consciousness – hers and mine. It can seem like consciousness and recognition point backwards towards selves, but when I check there is just consciousness – not a cat and human self who are controlling or housing consciousness.

But if that wasn’t known the “me” feeling would also encompass the feeling of the body walking in front of the cat, the sight of legs and arms moving. The certainty that is felt that perceptions are accurate (of floor, cat etc.) seems to also point backwards towards a self. Thoughts seem to point backwards towards a self making the thoughts, and on top of it many thoughts start with “I” (because many previous thoughts started with “I” and the habit is very strong). But all of these are just experiences.

Once an experience is labelled “mine” or “me” or “myself” other types of experiences get whirlpooled up into it, creating a sort of tornado of disparate types of experience which becomes a seemingly solid mass that gets misconstrued as a self.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

The change for me happened one month ago. So I’ve been getting to do this dialogue during a period of integration, and that has been enormously helpful. I feel like this dialogue has helped broaden the knowing into more areas of life and has helped pull out some roots that wanted to grow back. I don’t think the weed roots would have gotten a foothold, but that there would have been more confusion and strain without this conversation.

Before the change one month ago, the day seemed to be broken up into pieces – periods of time when doing certain activities, moods etc. Now it all seems to be continually flowing. Everything is always changing all the time. At first there was a lot of joy and intense energy and daily life seemed entirely fascinating – I guess that’s still true. The desire for distraction is gone – life happening is fascinating. And the desire to procrastinate, which used to be so strong, is not there – it seems the belief in a self was at the center of that somehow.

The crazy energy I felt right at the change time has relaxed and I’m sleeping more normally (for a couple of weeks I couldn’t sleep or eat normal amounts).

I’ve also been feeling and acting much more relaxed and not defensive – because this is the end of self improvement or self help. If I make a mistake a just apologize and think about how to make things better in the future and move forward. There’s not a self to manage or feel bad about. I have felt some loneliness because this way of seeing the world is so different from how most people see things – it feels painful to hear them beat up on themselves under the false idea they have selves. I just want to tell them they don’t and to stop worrying but I know this won’t actually be well received.

The last few days of this inquiry have pushed me to look deeper and in a more granular way at my actual experience. This has been hugely helpful. It seems to be helping this change in understanding take deeper root. Equanimity has been so strong these last few days. I know not to identify with that and think it will always be like that, but it’s remarkable to feel this way. As someone who was often described as anxious, intense and high strung, it’s wild to feel like there really isn’t anything to worry about in a very fundamental way.

People are reacting to me differently. I can see they are feel more relaxed and safer around me.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It’s been a process of inquiry and practice over time. About 10 months ago I started getting glimpses. A continual moment to moment effort to be diligent in looking picked up steam. I also had a very strong expectation and very strong faith that this would work. Because if there aren’t selves, why wouldn’t efforts to see this not succeed eventually? For the last couple of weeks it felt like the investigation was really running itself, an obsession that ran on its own fuel.

For this inquiry with you, the selfing cube (thoughts x feeling x psychological time) was hugely helpful. And being asked to untangle the selfing process in relation to the past. Also being asked to really look at experiences of intention and choice. That continues to make me look and be very helpful.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

So I was going just now to the kitchen. I saw things that needed to be moved or done and did them, to get ready to make dinner. The hands just did these things, after volitions arose. Then an image arose of a sandwich and then the thought arose, “Its late, I’m tired, maybe a sandwich is good enough.” The body started getting out sandwich things. An image of cheese arose, an image of a pickle. Volition arose in response. Then hands reached inside the fridge for cheese and pickles. After that a thought arose saying, “I made a sandwich.” But the process did not require a self to orchestrate it and no self did.

As for freewill, I was eating the sides next to the sandwich and knew my fork was heading towards a piece of avocado. Then a volition arose that was sort of saying, “you can’t control me” as if resisting the avocado-directed volition to make a point. So the fork stabbed a piece of broccoli instead. The volition that chose the broccoli can feel a self-like because it was connected to a rebellious urge to what might be construed as was free will, but really these are just two urges stemming most likely from two different past patterns. The choice of avocado vs broccoli is not connected to a self – neither choice is preordained and neither is right or wrong because there’s not self to answer to (and no moral quandry in this case, for simplicities sake).

Control: Some volitions get acted on, some don’t. Patterns and mental factors determine which volitions seem worth acting on. Some volitions get weaker and less frequent because they aren’t acted on. Some volitions get acted on and thus reactivated. But no one controls any of the steps in this process.

No selves are controlling anything. But patterns of thought and activity learn by observing the results of actions. Learning happens, but there is no self as either the manager of the learning process or the repository of what gets learned.

On responsibility: I looked at this today in daily life and will try my best to articulate it. Eating breakfast before going to an outdoor workday – that responsibility resides here. It doesn’t seem like an “I” self needs to be responsible for this to happen but clearly nobody else can do it! Along these lines, it seems like responsibility for actions and speech resides here, especially when it comes to preventing harm. There are mental factors that arise urging action (or non action) to prevent or limit harm. Like it my cat became seriously injured I think it would feel terrible to not get her medical treatment. Urges to take action to get her medical treatment would keep coming up and the emotions from not doing so would feel awful. So there doesn’t need to be a self in order for “me” to take responsibility for the things and beings in my life I should be accountable to – arising thoughts, feelings, urges, and intentions will do it if there’s not a confused, selfish experience that gums up the works. The responsibility to being more and more aligned with the flow of life follows from this, and seems implicit in the word response-ability. (Thanks for the question – it was very helpful to investigate this!)

6) Anything to add?

< The other guides will also read your answers, and if they have any questions, they’ll ask you.>

This is so cool! This process and community are simply awesome. I am grateful for the depth of your engagement and care, and feel very fortunate. If any other guides see things in here to dig into more I would be grateful for any and all help, questioning, and advice. I have an intention to use the opportunity of this life to help others, including to awaken. This inquiry process has planted many seeds.

With enormous gratitude and some awe,
Amy