River of thought

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Still entertaining thoughts of doubt: but noticing as thinking that floats in and out.

Good

Similarly, thought "am I really experiencing" the no separate self now? Given, noticing not much difference ( expected more if a loss and impact) to pre beliefs about me and my story illusion!

Yes, and isn't it crazy how that can happen, thoughts about "I" thinking looking for the "I's" demise, and none of it belonging to anyone, just thoughts appearing. Even expectation is just a thought belonging to no one.

Asking " is that it?".

Great, and what do you get as a response, without any thinking sneaking in?

Also asking/future thinking syndrome "when does the fear and wall hit my experiences "?

I am not sure what you mean by this, but is it anything more than than more thought content passing through?

Some "feeling of will power" required to push away this thinking.

Is a feeling ever more than a felt sensation in the body? Does a feeling ever name itself as some quality?
What is the "feeling of the feeling of will power"? Be forever curious of the felt sense, look at other feelings that arise, like a feeling of control, a feeling of helplessness. See the story that can be woven from a simple movement of sensation in the body.

Still, no self here.

:)

I will send the questions on the next post.

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Here are the questions I mentioned. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have their own questions. Please relate your answers to your direct experience and not from a conceptual understanding.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?


5) Describe decision and give an example from experience.

Describe intention and give an example from experience.

Describe free will and give an example from experience.

Describe choice and give an example from experience.

Describe control and give an example from experience.


6) What are you responsible for? Give an example from your experience.

7) What makes things happen? How does it all work?

8) Anything to add?

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Good morning Rowena,

May be some delay in finishing responses to these questions.
Noticed, you have consistently encouraged "to stay within DE". Thankyou, that is the guiding light.

Warm regards
Doug

[Noro]

Good morning Doug,

Please take your time with the questions and yes, I cant stress it enough to return to DE to stop mid-thought and ask "What's here NOW" and see the stories being woven by thought. Questions can be mis-leading and so easy to get back on the conceptual bandwagon of interpreting, explaining, theorizing etc.

Have a lovely day,

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Just a quick reaching out to see how you are doing?
I would be happy to get an update.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hello Rowena,
Thankyou for reaching out.
I'm back in Australia after 5 weeks away.

I had some struggle in answering the second part of these questions ( what pushed me over the edge section). I caught myself in an avoidance/procrastination fog unable to articulate my answers. However, soon after your prompt today
, something opens and words flowed again.
Thankyou.

Here are the questions I mentioned.
Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have their own questions.

Please relate your answers to your direct experience and not from a conceptual understandinng.



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
No

Was there ever?
Past - imagined.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Separate self : believing that "some invisible entity" existed inside ( forehead ) as "me". With critical body/mind responsibilities including control of thoughts, decisions, my life narrative, doing best for me to avoid mistakes and suffering.
Seems like a "voice in my head" constantly judging and commenting on what I should/could/would do to fix problems, what others are thinking. Relentless control and judgement over what and what-not to do and why.


Cannot specifically know "when it started". Likely around 3 y.o when concept of ownership and identity forming.

From my experience this "me" entity constantly grabbed attention of mind and thoughts ( energy sapping ).
Always seemed to be anxious and worrying about doing things right * at least according to judgement by this me ( example : people pleasing to be consistent with identity of a Doug).



Describe it fully as you see it now.
There is nothing to find as "it" ( separate self ).
The belief of it's existence is an illusion.
The "it" has been a fabrication and an imagined concept : based in thoughts and more thoughts.


3) How does it feel to see this?
Feeling is a freedom now: to just be ( no judge or judgements ).
Also, feeling of aha moment ( laughing funny moment ) in knowing the silliness of believing in delusion of thoughts and resisting letting go of such for long time.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Just letting life happen. Accepting this rather than trying to change this. This is OK.
Quieter of mind.
Less Reactive in discussions with my son.


Please report from the past few days.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Looking into " why I had doubts about letting go this separate self concept".
Asking the difficult questions - that may expose the "doubt" thinking.
Like:
What was the fear sensation?
What was I afraid of loosing?

What was I really "wanting" to keep and avoid letting go? Immediate family , close friends that are essentially loving people supportive of this story of me. These relationships I did not want to let go.
Somehow : when there is no me (or Doug's story ) in direct experience an expansive awareness is present here - without a me.

What is I? A belief , imagination of a separate entity, a dream like state of thinking : of a self controlling and responsible for this experience .

What is actually experience here, now? Expansive awareness ( calmess) of just existing.
What is this (without I)? Don't know what. Words like "openness looking out".

The following questions ( re decision, intention, free will and choice) sll raise a sense of struggle/tension to answer. There's the conceptual thinking that gets attention in attempts/wanting to answer.

In DE - decision cannot be described as it has no sensation or feeling to experience.
5) Describe decision and give an example from experience.
Decision : like looking back in time into an event/happening and trying to find a decision that caused this happening. Back solving exercise of thinking.

Describe intention and give an example from experience.
Similar to feeling with describing decision above. Like looking for some one ( cannot be found) with an intention to change this . No subject to be found for the "intention" to do anything to this. Intention requires the controller concept ( CE concept).

Describe free will and give an example from experience.
Similarly free will requires a subject and concept of choices to this.

Describe choice and give an example from experience.
Similarly choice requires a subject and concept of alternative to this.

Describe control and give an example from experience.
Control : another concept in thinking. Control of what and when?


6)

What are you responsible for?
Letting go into being.

Give an example from your experience.

7) What makes things happen? How does it all work?
Just happenings - I cannot explain the what or how ( doesn't need a what or how concepts).



8) Anything to add?
Weird/peculiar/hilarious to look back into 70 years of struggle to decide, looking for options to change and be responsible for life.

Warm regards,
Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Great to get your responses. Before I share with other guides, here are a few questions;

I had some struggle in answering the second part of these questions ( what pushed me over the edge section). I caught myself in an avoidance/procrastination fog unable to articulate my answers. However, soon after your prompt today, something opens and words flowed again.

Just for clarity, since what you wrote is more a reflection being offered about a recent memory

Was there a "you" involved here?
Are there such things as struggle/avoidance/procrastination fog?

6) What are you responsible for?

Letting go into being.
Give an example from your experience.

Not sure that I get your answer here!
Is there a 'you' responsible for letting go into being?
How does that happen?

Here's the question in a different manner:

Describe responsibility and give an example from experience


Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Good morning Rowena,


Was there a "you" involved here?
Are there such things as struggle/avoidance/procrastination fog?
No : there isn't a "me"
These things are only thoughts; interpreting a sense of confusion in consciousness: like disoriented sense in fog when not seeing clearly.
Habitual "avoidance" when in this state of mind was noticed. Yes, reflections on past in comments yesterday.

6) What are you responsible for?
Letting go into being.
Give an example from your experience.
Not sure that I get your answer here!

Is there a 'you' responsible for letting go into being?
No.
How does that happen?
I don't know : just as with this - awareness of happening thru senses.

Here's the question in a different manner:


Describe responsibility and give an example from experience
Ownership of consequence(s) of personal action/decision ( a shared or commonly believed description ).
Like decisions/choices/free will/intention require a subject or doer.
There is no self "me" or "doer" for responsibility in direct experience.

Perhaps the sense ,in past, of "avoiding" letting go of a separate self concept, was reflected in previous words.

Thanks for the pointer.




Warm regards,
Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Great thanks for those clarifications, I will now share with some other guides and see if they might have questions of their own for clarification.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

There were no questions for you from the other guides, so we have completed the LU exploration that we have been doing together. However, if ever you feel you would like to reach out, please know that I would be happy to be there if ever you felt the need and this thread will always be available for you.

It has been a real pleasure to guide you and I am grateful that you allowed me to walk this path with you. I would just like to give some final things to consider:

For the vast majority of us this is not the end of awakening. Deepening, clarifying and letting go continues. Doubt may or may not put in an appearance, this is normal. Adverse conditioned responses and old patterns will get triggered when circumstances align. With future patterns and beliefs to be seen through, the same seeing that took you through the gate will put these in perspective too. The invitation is to walk lighter in the experiencing.

Paying it forward by guiding is a great way to 'deepen' and is a possibility that you may wish to consider.

You will be invited to the Unleashed FB group. You are encouraged to use it to communicate with others that have recently 'gated'. You are invited to any of 3 weekly free zoom groups where you can work on anything that comes up or support and guide people who "have not crossed the gateless gate". (for zoom meetings, email vinceschubert@gmail.com)

I will greet you at the facebook group if you join, and we can connect there. And I am always happy to hear from you if you feel like sharing on how things evolve.

An admin will contact you with an invitation to the LU FB group.

It is good to keep inquiring and clarifying this, as this is just the beginning.

Below are some excellent resources for further exploration. Go with what resonates?

Simply Awake app - Free app for your phone that contains dozens of meditation that will help you to keep looking deeper.

Also a great video from Angelo Dilullo on this process and how it deepens on its own, if not resisted, YouTube: Simply Always Awake "Self and No-Self"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X_Xpd10pV0&t=38s

If you're interested in the fetters go to Kevin Shanilek's website for information:
https://simplytheseen.com/

Also a great video conversation with Ilona and Kevin Shanilek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWfBHN6oRk

Perfectly Okay.Org:
https://perfectlyokay.org/ - A free, supportive community that has many different modalities and meetings.

There are a number of teleconference groups if you have questions and/or would like to participate in conversation with others who have either been through the LU guiding or who are currently undergoing the process with a guide.

Vince Schubert who is in Australia has three meetings. Please contact him via email:
vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule.
https://www.youtube.com/@vinceschubert

Ilona holds a monthly meeting, contact:
admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link and schedule.

Warm regards,
Rowena