seeking freedom

[graceabounds]

This all sounds very wholesome.
:)

But when it happened, there was the intention to "replace" the I with the empty space, but then that thinking stops, because it can't go on without a subject

Great!

So, what is to be found in that gap without a subject? What is experienced?

Here is a fun exercise I haven’t given.

For this exercise you will need to sit yourself near a clock that has an audible second hand. If you don’t have a ticking clock, there are a bunch of videos on youtube, just do a search.

Allow your eyes to close gently.
Listen to the sound. “Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock”
Focus on the tick tock. Attune to the sound itself. IGNORE any explanatory thoughts about what must be creating the sound.

Try to find the clock.

1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?
Were you able to find a division between hearing and sound?
Were you able to establish where hearing ended and sound begin, or was there just pure experience labeled as sound?
For a sound to be ‘known’ then there must be a ‘knowing’ (experience) of sound! Can a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ (experience) of the sound and the sound (known) itself? Or is there only ‘knowingknown’?

[danielak]

That was a nice exercise. The fact that I didn't have a real clock, made it easier to realize the labelling process, how I identify the sound as a clock without even having a clock. That was very didactic. However, I wanted to try it with a real object. So I did the same thing with a fan that I have on now. The fact that it's a real fan and that I can hear it and feel the wind coming from it, made it a bit trickier to admit that there is no fan in direct experience., but I got it, the only direct experience is the wind on my skin. When I open my eyes and see the fan, there is the automatic response to label it as a fan, but I can see that it's just seeing happening and labeling happening...

About the separation between the hearing and sound, know and knowing, I can't find any division. This sounds like what people call oneness, no? But my mind is resistant to this experience of everything being just one thing, that there is no experiencer....working in progress ...and sometimes I question myself if I'm getting good in understanding this logically, so I can give the "right" answers or I'm really getting it

[graceabounds]

Haha, let's return to the clock then and sit with it some more and see if there is thought about it or experiencing of what I'm pointing to.

Again focus on the experience of the tick tock sound. Set aside all thought, images, ideas or theories about what must be going on. Attune to the sounds themselves.

Going by hearing alone, do you directly experience a sound apart from your sense of hearing?
Do you experience a sound getting closer to your range of hearing before you actually hear it?
Do you experience a sound after you hear it?
Do you experience an unheard sound of any kind?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish, in your direct experience of hearing, that sounds enter your sense of hearing. In other words, in direct/actual experience is there a hearer AND sound?

[danielak]

I did it again.

in direct/actual experience is there a hearer AND sound?

no. They’re not separated, hearing the clock and the sound were simultaneous, one experience.
I’m sorry if I’m being rational again. But I see that hearing cannot happen without sound, but there are sounds that cannot be heard, right? I’m asking because I was going to say that at the experience it was just one thing happening, as if they were one thing.
Anyway. But again, during the experience there was just one thing happening.
Btw, this weekend I’m traveling. I’ll be checking my msgs, but not sure if It’ll have the proper space to answer., if not I write you back on Monday. And feel free to send me assignments :p.

[graceabounds]

Hi Daniela,

I’m sorry if I’m being rational again. But I see that hearing cannot happen without sound, but there are sounds that cannot be heard, right?

This is the classic:
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around, does it make a sound?


It is a thought loop, no? Not existing in reality?


Have a nice trip! Here is an exercise. :)

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…
Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labeled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

You can repeat the exercise with all of body parts. For the head you can use a mirror.

Much love,
Becca

[danielak]

Hi Becca,

I did the exercise and it was very clear to notice that the sensation and the sight are not connected. and noticing it was very interesting. I guess it's the mind that does this almost immediately connection between them, but if we pay attention they're independent.

And I had an experience in this trip that I would like to share. We went to the mountains with some friends, and it's a beautiful place in nature. In the morning when I was by myself, I had this amazing moment, where I could seat still and I felt the tightness in my chest loosing, I felt my body relax, I wasn't anticipating the future and resisting any emotion, and in that moment I could remember how it was when I felt at peace (I had a few moments where I was kind of leaving very relaxed) and in those moments I wasn't worry about anything, and rushing to the next thing and when it happen I feel the craving for food or drinks stop. I talk a lot about craving food/drinks because it's such a easy /clear indicator of my emotions, I guess that is it bothers me so much, it's because I know that's something not in harmony within. Anyway..in the afternoon this sensation was already gone and I ended drinking and eating more than I should. But while I was experiencing this peace, there was also a realization that the expansion of perception happens by itself. Like passing through this "gate", I cannot push it, I can be focus on it, intentional about it, but the realization just happens when it happens. That moment something happened.
Right now, it feels like I'm back to my "old self", and actually I'm even more tight than before, very emotional, anxious, and the pressure in my chest stronger. this changes during the day, and probably later I'll be better.

[graceabounds]

Sounds like a lovely trip in many ways!

the realization just happens when it happens

Yes, though it is always already here :)

I wasn't anticipating the future and resisting any emotion,

This is kind of a trap of language (subject/object) but was I anywhere to be found in this moment?

Is the future ever anywhere to be found now?

[danielak]

Thank you Becca,

You're right, there is no future. At that moment, even having an amazing experience, thoughts about "I" was happening and "I" was very trapped in it. This weekend was full of many emotional moments, when this happens the I/ me are very loud. Another thing that I noticed that I do is whenever I'm passing through a difficult emotional situation, dealing with a fear, insecurity, whatever, than I start to focus on the "no self" , but in a way to "scape" the situation. Like , this is just a thought, this doesn't exist, I don't exist... but instead of being away to move beyond, became something to move away from the problem, which doesn't help. Anyway, gonna get back to the practice of O self, and .....self for today...too much I thoughts from the the weekend ;)

[graceabounds]

Yes, that movement away is bypassing.

When there is a difficult emotional situation try focusing on meeting and even greeting what is arising in the body.

Let me know how O self goes or even _____ nothing… active verbs only.

Showering…
walking…
eating…

[danielak]

Good morning Becca,

This tip to focus on the body while in emotional moments was helpful. I was confused and I knew that I was bypassing the emotion.

I didn't write before because there was not much to say. this topic of passing through this "gate" is my main topic and it's in my head all the time. But at the same time I was trapped in my thoughts and wasn't able to really focus on the practice of just eating, seeing, thinking...
Gonna keep trying today.

[graceabounds]

Sounds good.

Here is an exercise to use when the thoughts are more busy.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day.

Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many, many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come….

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

[danielak]

I took these two days to practice this thinking observation. First day I could do it just twice, and yesterday 3. It was very interesting to notice the whole thinking process, when one comes, a gap, some are more subtile, like when there is no thoughts and the think of "here is a gap", I'm not thinking now, wait, this's a though. And the loud ones like fighting with my husband in my head, I could notice how repetitive they are, and also random. Sometimes the gap was very short, and sometimes longer, and when was longer the thought about this's a gap starts.
Doing the exercise it was possible to see that thought as something that just happens and not be so entangled in it.
I also had an experience about feeling in the body the emotions and the correlation with thoughts and sensation, but I have to leave now and gonna write about it later or tomorrow.
Enjoy your weekend!!

[graceabounds]

I also had an experience about feeling in the body the emotions and the correlation with thoughts and sensation,

I’d love to hear more!


Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations, or are they totally separate from each other?

[danielak]

So, something happened just now, and it was similar with the experience I had before about emotions. A thought came, imagining a situation in the future made me angry and frustrated. The focus went to the body, trying to check what the feeling was. Again it's a pressure in the chest and this time in the throat because I wanted to cry. But when the focus is just in the body, it's just body sensations, pressure, warmth, they by themselves don't mean anything, and it isn't even a big deal being with them, because they don't cause physical pain, they're just a sensations. And looking from this context, they don't seem related to anything, just the body doing its thing, they don't seem connected to thoughts at all.
But, when the focus goes to the mind/ thoughts, I get confused. I see that it's just thoughts. But thinking of these things makes me uncomfortable. But saying that means that there is a sensation in the body that is uncomfortable, and again looking at the body, it doesn't seem that uncomfortable. So, it doesn't make any sense.
I was very angry having a thought, imagining a situation unfolding in a way, I feel in my throat, chest, the emotion was very strong. But again, the sensation in the body - not a big deal. Then I imagined a different outcome, a better one, than I had a "better" emotion, not so angry, more flexible. I guess the tension in my throat was released. And again, the feeling in the body wasn't that significant.
I guess you got my point, right? I thought about I want to feel at peace, joyful, happy. But what this really means?? feel means a sensation in the body, right? but it doesn't sound that is what I'm talking about. Emotionally speaking , there is a huge difference between feeling sad, angry and feeling at peace and joyful. but in the body there isn't that much difference. I'm very confused! So what really means feeling at peace??? or feeling confused??

Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations, or are they totally separate from each other?

As I mentioned, when I focus on the body it seems totally separated experience. But at the same time, when I have a thought, as I just described, this thought can impact how my body respond. One example, if I think about something disgusting, my body sometimes respond with a nauseas sensation, or when I hear an emotional story, sometimes I get goosebumps. In this sense it seems that yes, the thoughts influences the bodies sensations.

[danielak]

Me again! I'm writing a lot today, I hope it's ok.

But, when you asked to observe the thoughts, for some reason it was possible to be ver focused on it, even not doing the 10 min still, during the day, there was observation of the thoughts happening. And a realization that thoughts are wild, crazy, non sense. At the same time, thought them, is when realizations, insights happen. There was the realization that they're just happening, no one in control, this association between thoughts, emotion, and body sensation that it was never questioned and now seems so confusing., just the consideration that there is no "arriving" , questioning what feeling happy and free really means. thoughts like " Am I getting crazy?" , "maybe that is just it, that is the gate, or there is no gate, how am I gonna know"? "probably this process is much simple than I'm making it" but at the same time "it is what it is"...
Thoughts like should I focused on the no self (just using verbs, things just happening by themselves, or should I focus on my emotions and give a close look at the emotions and thoughts, in this case, to dive in int he emotions, the "I" , the protagonist, Daniela, seems that should be treated as something very real. And as I mentioned before, there was mind mechanism to focus on the "non self" to not look deep into the conditionings. When to focus on one or another.?
So, suddenly there was observation of all these thoughts were happening, besides the conditioned ones, the routine ones, and random ones... it's wild and overwhelming.
And then last night I dreamed that I was loosing sense of reality. that I was forgetting things, or thinking that few things were real when they weren't. it wasn't pleasant at all (p.s. what pleasant even mean?) I was very confused, and vulnerable in the dream, not knowing what to do... Gosh, this's intense!