Wanting to wakeup feels like its what's stopping awakening

[mayafreedom]

I let go a lot yesterday and just let myself feel 'maybe I already know no-self." I already know spacious awareness which is clearly not a self, and everything passes within. I've known that well for several years now. The thing we call sense of self has a contracted feeling and isn't constant. If we are looking for something separate it must be solid and constant, otherwise it's not separate, it's just part-of. So there is no separate self, I can see that logically. I'm not sure why I haven't allowed myself to recognize this fully.

I have a fear of deluding myself. I grew up with spiritual BS and became very weary of self-delusion. Maybe I don't want to say I know it and be wrong and realize I'm just as deluded as others.

It was really sweet to read through your posts with Jacki. She's so kind and considerate of you. I appreciate her gratitude. I appreciate you and your work. I think you also mentioned CBD gummies for pain. I hope the pain is not too bad.

Reading about your awakenings (what you wrote to her) I was struck by this:

I've had that blissed out experience in sex, breathwork, nature, and probably other scenarios I'm forgetting. Mostly (maybe always), it is whenever a truth dawns on me, such as there being no separate self.

I've had a LOT of that feeling since my initial heart opening 7 years ago. I described it as "better than any orgasm or drug" and subsequent experiences have been as good. I also frequently cry with joy and gratitude, just spontaneous appreciation and love. I do this a lot in my [helping profession] work and in seeing my teachers and in listening to the dhamma from realized people. But nothing lasts more than a day with maybe some pleasant feeling for a week after. But not just "blissed out." And the insights seem fractional...

I've had so many separate insights/understandings/experiences. Collectively they add up to having searched and not found over and over. Perceptual shifts about time, thought, emotion, the body, etc. I've wrote them all out as I can remember them and it's a LOT. Why am I discounting this?? Why is the mind so insistent on not Allowing this New Truth to permeate.

Just now I was doing ButtChair while looking in the room and I realized that sensing the body is the same as sensing vision or sound. It's not special it's not "me"... I saw the body as just part of the visual - sensory field. Thought is also in there, emotional tone, songs in the mind, the birds chirping, it is all kind of all together. The muscles of the eyes moving is a sensation. I'm telling myself to relax. Feeling THE head on edge of bed. Heat on THE feet where it meets the mattress. Thoughts about "is this it" passing through. See the fingers move to type. Thought "I don't know how that works," memory of a friend. The heart beating isn't me. The spine wiggling, although there was choice, I don't know how that happens.

What am I looking for? I don't even know anymore.

[mayafreedom]

Cool I just wrote out all the checkpoint answers and then the site went down and lost them 😂😂😂 guess it wasn't the right time.

[Anastacia42]

No it's nothing to do with the right time.

We do recommend that you write in a word processor and then transfer it.

Loving,

[mayafreedom]

No it's nothing to do with the right time.

Sorry, that was a bad new-agey joke. I know it's nothing to do with that.

I wrote 2 other posts I'd love your feedback on, thank you

[mayafreedom]

Hi Stacy,

You seem less active on the forum than usual (which is usually very active! Really amazing!) so I hope you are ok. Sending you metta and well wishes 🙏🏻

Yesterday kinda sucked. I could feel the discomfort of so many doubt and seeking thoughts. It was a storm of them. I meditated and they would soften and just come back. I got so sick of it. Like I feel done feeling doubt, what a waste of energy.

Today I was like, I can't find a self in the body, feelings, thoughts, sensory perceptions, or consciousness. I haven't found it despite all the looking. I feel I am conscious. But that is not the same as the "self" or sense of self. I can detect that sense of self as a contracted feeling or even ego inflated or whatever but that's just body sensation and thought. But I can't find a "self," as a thing. That's a subtle distinction. To feel a selfing feeling still but not find it and come to realize it doesn't really exist.

I realized this experience I had in December may have been the shift and I'm just unraveling it since then: I had a 3 hour meditation where conscious awareness left the body and was just watching visions unfold. The visions had meanings, but it was very clear that "I" (the watcher) was not creating any of it, just as one does not create a dream. A thought occurred during it "who is the director?” and recently (maybe a few weeks ago) it struck me there is no director.

Since that December vision, I had a retreat in March where I was clear that I'm not thought, because again "I" (the awareness) was simply watching thought. It wasn't a new experience but there was clarity with that thought coming and going, that I was here the whole time and it was the one coming and going, so I can't be it.

I already had that with feelings many, many times, watching them come in and leave like a weather pattern.

Perceptions of labels and vision and sight feels clear with the practices here. Even just opening and closing the eyes, I have no control over what's seen, senses are totally involuntary and not made by me.

Then I seemed to be stuck in "I am the perceiver" Raven and Alma (both recommended from Angelo) both gave me the same instruction to look where the perceiver seems to be coming from. When I did that a couple of weeks ago, something happened where I could see the Maya person perceiving, the perception was more pure and separated from that sense of self and perceiving process. It was larger and more encompassing. It only lasted a few seconds but I felt very clear that the whole "perceiver" sense of an entity is within perception itself. I felt quite happy for a few days after that, especially with my husband who also was probably getting it around that time.

That sense of free will, choice, decision... That feels like it has still been sticky. The choice exercise and the seeing the self (the last 2 exercises you gave me) seem to lead me to the same old dead end... That there just is nothing independent. There's a SENSE of a self, but it's clear that that is not actually pointing to any solid thing. It's just a perception like the color blue is a perception.

I think something clicked just the other day that I may be looking for getting rid of the SENSE of self rather than just seeing that it is not a solid thing. Seeing that it is not solid has been unfolding as I've described above.

I don't know what consciousness is, but through all of this it's clear that there is consciousness. There is being aware. None of this could happen without that. But "I" don't know how to be aware, how to choose, how to learn, how to type, how to grow hair, how to have a vision, how to do.... Literally anything. Even exist. "I" can only be watching. It seems wrong to say that because of all the conventional "I went to school, I got degrees, my personality, my house, my partner, my memories, my life" but what I can see now that I was stuck on before is that all of those "I" things exist, yes, but the ownership isn't true.

It feels confusing to not have a big bang but when I look collectively it's all there. I think that's why there has been so much doubt. There's also concern about BS'ing myself or others, wanting to really be sure and sincere. I really, really, really do not want to say "I'm a stream enterer" that seriously just feels wrong and not true. But I currently feel out of doors to open or hallways to look down to find the separate self. There just isn't one. There isn't. There's a sense of I am, and getting lost in that but there just isn't something separate from everything else. It doesn't make sense, I haven't found one, and part of me says that's not enough, I could be delusional but I just don't know what other proof is needed. Maybe you have some ideas.

💕

[Anastacia42]

Yes. I can't say for you that you've had a shift (several, really). You have to dissolve your own doubt.

We're looking for a shift in perception & you seem to be describing that.

We're looking for seeking to stop.

We're looking for letting go of rituals designed to protect the non-existent "self."

I'm pretty sure I already sent this, but as a reminder:

From an email from Ilona

Nothing dramatic happened.

There were no fireworks.
No permanent bliss states.
No sudden personality changes.

And yet, something shifted.

Here are a few things people said afterwards:

“I’m not fighting my experience anymore. There’s more space around everything.”

“I expected something big to happen. Instead, life feels simpler and I trust myself more.”

“There’s less urgency. The seeking has softened.”


This is the kind of shift this work supports.

Ilona Cuinate

You seem to be expecting something different. Asking Santa Claus to take his red suit off over & over when you've already seen he's just a man in a suit.

Can you relax into knowing & trusting what you've seen even when you have selfing thoughts?

Loving

[Anastacia42]

I got a new phone & it took a little while to set it up.

[mayafreedom]

I got a new phone & it took a little while to set it up.

Glad that's all it was! :-)

Yes. I can't say for you that you've had a shift (several, really). You have to dissolve your own doubt.

Yes, I agree, it seems to be down to the doubt itself, not a lack of shifts in perception, although maybe I expected those to come 100% together.

We're looking for a shift in perception & you seem to be describing that.

I agree, while I'm not doubting haha.

We're looking for seeking to stop.

I'm definitely still seeking--perhaps seeking validation and seeking to not have doubt anymore.

We're looking for letting go of rituals designed to protect the non-existent "self."

Can you give an example of this? I thought of the rituals fetter as more about not thinking you have to do a certain thing to "get enlightened." I can see clearly that practices are not the thing themself.

You seem to be expecting something different. Asking Santa Claus to take his red suit off over & over when you've already seen he's just a man in a suit.

This cracked me up. It's so true. It's like I see his suit is gone but then look away and it seems to be back on and I'm demanding that it must never have been off. When the experience/seeing is over, I doubt it even happened.

Can you relax into knowing & trusting what you've seen even when you have selfing thoughts?

That seems to be my work now!!

[Anastacia42]

Okay, i thought of communion. Then I googled & got:

"Believing external actions purify the heart: Thinking that bathing in a holy river, chanting specific phrases, or making offerings can magically erase unwholesome karma without needing to change your inner mind or behavior.Rigidly clinging to meditation forms: Believing that your meditation practice only "counts" or works if you sit in a specific posture, use a precise timer, or wear specific clothes, treating the external form as the magic key to awakening.Superstitious reliance on religious rules: Assuming that strictly obeying outer monastic codes or vows as a rigid performance guarantees safety or enlightenment, rather than using them as flexible tools for cultivating kindness and wisdom."

Got it?

Can you relax into knowing & trusting what you've seen even when you have selfing thoughts?
That seems to be my work now!!

Let me know how it's going.

Loving,

[mayafreedom]

Got it?

yes, I don't feel I have this. I don't have very much rigidity at all in terms of practice these days. I seem to see the dhamma in more and more things. My meditation is all over the place. I go to more different teachers and don't think anymore that there's only 1 right way to say or do things. I do feel there is one truth but expressed many ways. A few months after the December experience I let go of being on 8 precepts and focused more on whatever was just helping rather than those rules. I keep 5 precepts because they feel good, I wouldn't change that but it's not like a dependency for enlightenment, I just don't want to harm myself or others.

Can you relax into knowing & trusting what you've seen even when you have selfing thoughts?

I'm noticing the lightness and happiness I feel listening to the dhamma and also just spontaneously. It's been this way for years really, but strong lately. Noticing that the thoughts can be there and I don't have to believe them.

Earlier this year it had occurred to me, "maybe I don't have problems I just *think* I do," and also "maybe I don't have to believe my thoughts." Several teachers have commented on doubt/thinking. And I've been directly seeing the ability to just let the thoughts float by without clinging.

Seeing them as "just selfing thoughts" but not picking them up is now my practice. 🙏🏻

[Anastacia42]

It is likely you're stuck in both doubt & expectations.

I've given you resources for these. Let me know if & when that shifts.

Loving

[mayafreedom]

if & when that shifts.

"If" -- oh no, I don't want to be here forever! Do people get stuck here for long?

[Anastacia42]

Only when they believe thinking. Here's a long one but usually it's only 4 or 5 pages. This one is over 30 pages. Read the last few to see what eventually happened.

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... #p334805

Loving,

[mayafreedom]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is nothing *separate* at all as far as I can see we're all in and made of the same stuff. If there's something "outside of the universe" I have no idea how that would work. How an entity or even a mind would be separate makes no sense.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is all of the beliefs, thoughts, and associated feelings that come from family, culture, and just being human that say I/me/mine/myself. I don't know when it started for me. I have fleeting memories from childhood more of not-that feeling. I see it now as just a process that results in thoughts and feelings which arise within awareness. I know I can't be it because I can see it working, see the results of it, but can't control it. There's no control.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Right now it doesn't feel very significant to see this, maybe even a little deflating as I've been striving so hard. But the flashes of more directly feeling into it all have felt joyous, light, awe-some. Then things just feel ordinary again. But my life has changed so dramatically over the last 7 years and even over the past 8 months, to some degree I've lost the perspective of "before I started" because it was way before this dialogue.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Most recently I was reading Todd and Vince discuss free will. I realized I've been trying to make it make sense but it doesn't. I had this really intense whoooooaaaa feeling...it's similar to the feeling I had at 7 years old trying to contemplate how something could appear out of nothing, how there could even be nothing, how the universe ever wasn't. It's a brain trip.

No-thing is "free" from everything else. If there is "free" will it still has a big asterisk as a process that simply exists within the universe. It can't truly be free, as it's always constrained and conditioned by all other conditions in the universe. Period.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Don't know how decision works, I just see the results of it. Have no idea how "I decided" to come out to my deck and lay here to meditate. But it happened. I can see the result of it.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention seems to be a conditioned kind of will that pushes actions in a certain direction but is also pushed against by all other habits, histories, conditions. For example, I "intended" to not eat sugar today but the desire from ice cream conditioned from my childhood was stronger than that intention and "won" ending in mint chocolate chip.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will doesn't exist. There is the will from conditions and all the constraints. Change still happens by new conditioning but it's not "free" from everything else.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

I can't choose. Choices happen, I'm witness to the result. I literally cannot think of anything I actually chose. Even "choosing" to get out of bed is just conditioned by various pressures like needing to pee, the impulse to stretch, the desire to see light...all of which are not chosen, they just happen.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is definitely an illusion lol. I can't even control something as simple as feeling itchy.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

No idea, and neither do neuroscientists really. We can point to prior causes and associations and that's about it.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Ultimately, there's no "I" independently responsible. Relatively, I take responsibility as a set of values to live by to continue to condition the mind for a more wholesome and happier life, but I recognize all of that is just based on prior conditions and no independent responsibilities truly exist.

6) Anything to add?

Naw

[Anastacia42]

Very good. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions. Stay tuned.

Loving