River of thought

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,

Thankyou for Friday's gentle guiding.
Last 3 days enjoying holiday and time out with son and grandson.
Beautiful to be here , with lovely beings.


Yes, quite frivolous/crazy wanting "thinking" for any real understanding of "this". Similarly, "seeking" an answer in words.

Wonder and curiosity the guiding.
Inquiring into What is this?

Visually : seeing without distance , immediately here. Aware of seeing just happening.
Though, noticing dropping out and into a well practiced "labelled scene of objects".

Warm regards
Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

It was lovely to read your last post and Im so happy you've been having a beautiful time.

Visually : seeing without distance , immediately here. Aware of seeing just happening.

Perfect!

Though, noticing dropping out and into a well practiced "labelled scene of objects".

Of course! Thoughts and more thoughts!! And...... it is not about the thoughts:
It is about reacting to or identification with thoughts!
Is there any resistance to thoughts arising?
Is identification with thoughts happening?
And if that is happening, how is this known to be happening?
Who is this happening to?
In direct experience, is there such a thing as resistance?

And now look at this: (trigger warning!)

In your direct experience, as you look at the visual field:
Is there anything at all to be found that can be separated out from the whole field, including other people? Yes/No?

If there is a reaction to this, stay with the reaction, notice any objection thoughts that might arise and then be with any contracting sensations and allow them to be fully felt.

Take your time, and keep me posted.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Good morning Rowena,


Is there any resistance to thoughts arising?

No - not with thoughts rising.
This ( thoughts] is happening: seems most of the time - as noticing this when distracted in DE. Yes, finding identified in thinking streams.

Is identification with thoughts happening?
Yes.
And if that is happening, how is this known to be happening?
Noticing distractions ( contractions) " movements out of DE".


Who is this happening to?

CE concept of a self ( mind) stuck in thoughts.
Noticing tendency to want some event/revelation/recognition out of the "dropping of self identification". Wanting the freeing of no self - thinking what's that.
Catching/noticing this self talk and "pushing away" these thoughts. Resistance to being in/consumed as these thought streams of wanting to be free.


In direct experience, is there such a thing as resistance?
No.

And now look at this: (trigger warning!)

In your direct experience, as you look at the visual field:
Is there anything at all to be found that can be separated out from the whole field, including other people? Yes/No?
No. Just the seeing of visual field.
Context: Experiencing unease in relating with my adult son, who is dealing with substantial stress(es) in life.
Noticing the energetics of that, and contraction ( even helplessness feeling.



If there is a reaction to this, stay with the reaction, notice any objection thoughts that might arise and then: be with any contracting sensations and allow them to be fully felt.

Noticing the "objection thinking" .
Being with contraction sensations and feeling this brings or calmness happens.
Most often (non meditative) found ping ponging between "objection thinking" and feeling into contractions.

Challenging exercise , finding dropping into "pushing" in difficult experiences

.
Warm regards,
Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Is identification with thoughts happening?
Yes.
And if that is happening, how is this known to be happening?
Noticing distractions ( contractions) " movements out of DE".


Who is this happening to?

CE concept of a self ( mind) stuck in thoughts.
Noticing tendency to want some event/revelation/recognition out of the "dropping of self identification". Wanting the freeing of no self - thinking what's that.
Catching/noticing this self talk and "pushing away" these thoughts. Resistance to being in/consumed as these thought streams of wanting to be free.

Are any of the above appearances divided from the whole immediate happening of any one split second?
What says that distractions / contractions / movements away from the immediacy of direct experience is identification?
Identification with what? Does that "what" exist as anything more than a thought/psychosomatic arising?
Is that anything more than a thought arising, and perhaps leading to more thoughts telling a similar story?
How does "pushing away" these thoughts appear in your direct experience?
Is that too not part of the overall appearance, constantly arising and then falling away?

Context: Experiencing unease in relating with my adult son, who is dealing with substantial stress(es) in life.
Noticing the energetics of that, and contraction ( even helplessness feeling.

I am so sorry to hear that Doug, it is hard when our adult children are challenged with the stresses of life.
My suggestion is to fully be with / be present with how this is arising within you. A really good way to explore is to make a statement about a stressful situation and then dive in deeper by asking: "and if that were to happen, what then......?" and fill in the gap and keep going until you can fully BE WITH the feelings of helplessness and beyond.

Let me know how you get on with that.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
A difficult day.

Is identification with thoughts happening?
Yes.

And if that is happening, how is this known to be happening?

Noticing distractions ( contractions) " movements out of DE".


Who is this happening to?

CE concept of a self ( mind) stuck in thoughts.
Noticing tendency to want some event/revelation/recognition out of the "dropping of self identification". Wanting the freeing of no self - thinking what's that.
Catching/noticing this self talk and "pushing away" these thoughts. Resistance to being in/consumed as these thought streams of wanting to be free.

Are any of the above appearances divided from the whole immediate happening of any one split second?
No.
What says that distractions / contractions / movements away from the immediacy of direct experience is identification?
Identification with what?

Self - especially the controller, trying to make less suffering both for son, and for ( me self) in dealing with what comes up.

Does that "what" exist as anything more than a thought/psychosomatic arising?
No.
Thoughts arising : CE content and reaction.

Is that anything more than a thought arising, and perhaps leading to more thoughts telling a similar story?

Reflective thoughts of me wanting to be safe. Yes: thoughts and story.


How does "pushing away" these thoughts appear in your direct experience?

Feelings of suppression, holding back and in, disassociating from the helplessness.


Is that too not part of the overall appearance, constantly arising and then falling away?

Yes: thoughts arising and floating away.
Suffering in CE wanting to change experience.


Warm regards Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

First of all, I do recognize that your son, and therefore by default, you are going through a difficult time at the moment. The challenges that life presents can be hard to navigate and there is inevitable suffering, especially when deep seated fears are triggered. Life is a roller coaster when the experience is viewed from the conventional perspective. But the conventional perspective is full of assumptions based on what we have learned or been told how life is and expectations about how we want life to go so that we can feel safe and at peace. Anything that rocks the boat can send us into survival mode.

"Awakening is seeing that all the old patterns run by themselves, and healing is releasing the old patterns so that the system can come back to its natural state, which is health." Ilona Ciunate

In spite of what is going on regarding the situation that your son is facing, there is a way to meet what is happening by directly meeting the elements that taken together create resistance and suffering to what is happening. Meeting the situation directly means allowing the space to meet what is going on, RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. It means noticing the tendency to distract away from THIS MOMENT by getting into thinking, planning etc. and to escape the full energetic experience of what is going on in the body.

Noticing tendency to want some event/revelation/recognition out of the "dropping of self identification". Wanting the freeing of no self - thinking what's that.

You have been looking at this for a while now. What do you think this is all about?
What does the concept of a self mean to you now that you have seen that there is no actual independent entity running the show?
Can you accept that this idea of a 'self' was an un-investigated assumption that you took on at an early age following other people's directions with this assumption that they had never got down to investigating?
Can you see now that the reason that no actual self can be found is because there are so many 'moving parts' in the human system that it is impossible to say which one is THE part that operates, controls, directs the whole? And that the whole cannot be separated out from the larger whole?

It is all one great happening. The only thing is that this has been an untenable situation for the mind to consider since it has never been trained to see things other than the way it was 'programmed' or conditioned to see things. From the materialistic world view, the world is full of things, i.e. nouns. But in the un-investigated reality of our direct experience there are no nouns, no things, only verbs. Everything is in constant movement. That is why no self (noun) can be found. But we can say that 'selfing' happens.

Catching/noticing this self talk and "pushing away" these thoughts. Resistance to being in/consumed as these thought streams of wanting to be free.

Your resistance to resistance is where you need to look. Resistance is natural, sometimes it takes time to 'digest' what is happening. We can grasp situations intellectually, but the emotional body moves at a much slower pace, and this is where attention needs to be placed. How can you make plans when your body and feelings are calling out for attention?

Self

There is no self, only apparent 'selfing' made up of thoughts, (stories and memories) and body sensations, also labeled by thought as "my feelings."

- especially the controller, trying to make less suffering both for son, and for ( me self) in dealing with what comes up.

If there are no things, no nouns, then how can there be "the controller" where is it hiding?

Thoughts arising : CE content and reaction.

Doug, there is no CE, that was a useful term to adopt at the beginning of our inquiry, but it is time to let it go. All experience considered from the perspective of consensus reality is based on interpretation, unexplored beliefs, assumptions and expectations. It is all thought based, and when thought takes over we can no longer be present to what is actually being experienced fully here and now..... we are lulled away from NOW by our imaginings.

Please allow yourself the space to take moments of direct experience and inquiry.
Be the aware presence that can hold the space for fearful thoughts and keep asking "How does this feel in the body."
Emotion = Energy in Motion.
Fear in the body is a vibrational energy needing to find its way out. It is probably the most core vibration that we have constantly been trying to distract ourselves away from.
Give yourself the time and space to meet and allow this energy in.

Is that too not part of the overall appearance, constantly arising and then falling away?

Yes: thoughts arising and floating away.
Suffering in CE wanting to change experience.

Yes, and suffering can also arise in direct experience, but meeting the situation labelled suffering directly and using direct inquiry, the actual direct experiencen of it can be seen and understood.


Sending you and your son my very best wishes,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
Thankyou for understanding and empathy.

Some intersection of feelings in my awareness of this 1. my son's sufferings in challenging situations ( which I cannot "fix" only listen and empathise and secondly my challenges here ( which I cannot "fix" yet accept and let be).

Noticing tendency to want some event/revelation recognition out of the "dropping of self identification". Wanting the freeing of no self - thinking what's that.
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You have been looking at this for a while now. What do you think this is all about?

Very good question, Rowena.

OK - after being with this un-ease and feeling into this , the following seems to resonate most strongly in my gut.
Feeling the unease of "wanting" and "pulling" the "future imaginary event" of awakening into this. The reactivity to thoughts of impactience "when will this happen" "am I doing this wrong" "am I not seeing something" "why I see this in DE and quickly drop way into mind identified"???

The impatient wanting "no separate self" realisation to be stable [ rather than accepting and allowing this as happening , not a doing] as a freedom from the matrix of unhappiness : pressures of illusions of time, objects, form and conceptual beliefs
.

What does the concept of a self mean to you now that you have seen that there is no actual independent entity running the show?
A familiar safety mechanism to distract from feelings of unease, a coping response to mental pressure ( like thought gymnastics as avoidance to letting go, noticing voice/self thinking of wanting recognition of achievement.

Knowing the peace in DE, the opposition in selfing.

Can you accept that this idea of a 'self' was an un-investigated assumption that you took on at an early age following other people's directions with this assumption that they had never got down to investigating?

Yes.
Can you see now that the reason that no actual self can be found is because there are so many 'moving parts' in the human system that it is impossible to say which one is THE part that operates, controls, directs the whole?

Yes : Seeing that as reasonable.

And that the whole cannot be separated out from the larger whole?
Yes.

It is all one great happening. The only thing is that this has been an untenable situation for the mind to consider since it has never been trained to see things other than the way it was 'programmed' or conditioned to see things. From the materialistic world view, the world is full of things, i.e. nouns. But in the un-investigated reality of our direct experience there are no nouns, no things, only verbs.
Everything is in constant movement. That is why no self (noun) can [cannot] be found. But we can say that 'selfing' happens.

Catching/noticing this self talk and "pushing away" these thoughts. Resistance to being in/consumed as these thought streams of wanting to be free.
Your resistance to resistance is where you need to look.
Yes.
Resistance is natural, sometimes it takes time to 'digest' what is happening. We can grasp situations intellectually, but the emotional body moves at a much slower pace, and this is where attention needs to be placed. How can you make plans when your body and feelings are calling out for attention?
Yes, meditating practice before sleeping and feeling/looking into body sensations is helping.


There is no self, only apparent 'selfing' made up of thoughts, (stories and memories) and body sensations, also labeled by thought as "my feelings."

- especially the controller, trying to make less suffering both for son, and for ( me self) in dealing with what comes up.
If there are no things, no nouns, then how can there be "the controller" where is it hiding?
No controller.

Doug, there is no CE, that was a useful term to adopt at the beginning of our inquiry, but it is time to let it go.

All experience considered from the perspective of consensus reality is based on interpretation, unexplored beliefs, assumptions and expectations. It is all thought based, and when thought takes over we can no longer be present to what is actually being experienced fully here and now..... we are lulled away from NOW by our imaginings.

Yes, that's my experience : unconsciously lulled away from NOW into thoughts. Then noticing/aware of the unease of not being: peace of here and present.


Please allow yourself the space to take moments of direct experience and inquiry.
Be the aware presence that can hold the space for fearful thoughts and keep asking "How does this feel in the body."
Emotion = Energy in Motion.

Fear in the body is a vibrational energy needing to find its way out. It is probably the most core vibration that we have constantly been trying to distract ourselves away from.
Give yourself the time and space to meet and allow this energy in.

Is that too not part of the overall appearance, constantly arising and then falling away?
Yes: thoughts arising and floating away.

Warm regards
Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

OK - after being with this un-ease and feeling into this , the following seems to resonate most strongly in my gut.
Feeling the unease of "wanting" and "pulling" the "future imaginary event" of awakening into this. The reactivity to thoughts of impactience "when will this happen" "am I doing this wrong" "am I not seeing something" "why I see this in DE and quickly drop way into mind identified"???

Yes, isn't it maddening!!! And that's what's happening. There is no where to land, nothing to see although there are appearances of apparent seeing and then they are apparently unseen. Grasping to get, to understand, to land somewhere and there is no where to land and no one that can land or not land. Simply maddening, frustrating, despairing, and sometimes glimpses of hilarious! All happening and nothing separate from the whole, including the selfing.

The impatient wanting "no separate self" realization to be stable [ rather than accepting and allowing this as happening , not a doing] as a freedom from the matrix of unhappiness : pressures of illusions of time, objects, form and conceptual beliefs

Yes, and noticing non accepting and allowing (i.e. resistance to what is happening). Feeling is key to all of this. There can be an intellectual knowing, but the psychosomatic letting go of frozen energy patterns is where the real juice is, because that is where the apparent grasping (seeking) takes place.

What does the concept of a self mean to you now that you have seen that there is no actual independent entity running the show?
A familiar safety mechanism to distract from feelings of unease, a coping response to mental pressure ( like thought gymnastics as avoidance to letting go, noticing voice/self thinking of wanting recognition of achievement.

Knowing the peace in DE, the opposition in selfing.

Yes, there is a knowing of peace that arises in direct experience when thoughts subside, and when selfing appears, there is contraction, a sense of being pulled into thought loops etc. thoughts about suffering, sadness, etc. can appear.
But is there any separate 'you' or person, or, "me here now" to be found in direct experience or when apparent selfing happens?

Keep sharing, I am happy to keep this conversation going! And CE can happen as an appearance too!!

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Good morning Rowena,
Thankyou for guiding back into the difficult inquiry here.


But is there any separate 'you' or person, or, "me here now" to be found in direct experience or when apparent selfing happens?

No. [now , DE]
There's doubt appearing (fear/contraction feelings). Like "be careful here" don't let go, so easily" of a this entrenched belief of self (trained way of understanding life history) that has apparently served "me "well, for such a long time now.
In this moment, there is seeking. Seeking the truth. Knowing the peaceful nature found here.


Recalling some sensations of previous intense fear situations and the real contraction of energy in the body sensations. There was definitely a knowing (awareness) available in the background of these sensations. That was not fearful or contracted - just there - aware.

Similar, to these recent DE experiences : in noticing sensations in body. Not a separate self!
Yes, evidence of awareness.

Warm regards
Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

There's doubt appearing (fear/contraction feelings). Like "be careful here" don't let go, so easily" of a this entrenched belief of self (trained way of understanding life history) that has apparently served "me "well, for such a long time now.
In this moment, there is seeking. Seeking the truth. Knowing the peaceful nature found here.

So much activity being reported upon. This "me" mechanism seeks its own demise under its own terms! And it is all an appearance, there is no actual "me" BUT it continues to SEEM like there is one!
Can there be a "me" thought without a contraction?
Look into that contraction, what is it communicating that is a recognized repeating pattern?
When we get deeper into our 'self' investigation, there are subtle contractions that hold subtle thought, unexpressed thoughts, perhaps more like an attitude, or a mood, or a position. It can be very subtle and very gentle.
We have been trained to be careful about what we say and a lot goes on underneath our internal awareness.

Is seeking a problem?
Is it not what is happening?

Don't ask what seeking is looking for, rather ask
What is 'seeking' running from?
What stands to gain from 'seeking', a someone?
Can there even be seeking without a someone?

Recalling some sensations of previous intense fear situations and the real contraction of energy in the body sensations. There was definitely a knowing (awareness) available in the background of these sensations. That was not fearful or contracted - just there - aware.

This is really good. Stay with that. BE WITH the sensations, you are not the sensations, they are arising and falling in 'you'. Can 'you' be known as a thing separate from the appearance?

Similar, to these recent DE experiences : in noticing sensations in body. Not a separate self!
Yes, evidence of awareness.

YES! And quietly, in such a moment, without the chitter chatter of the mind starting up again....
Is anything missing?
Is anything lacking?
Is anything needed?
Is there anywhere to go?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hello Rowena,

Is seeking a problem? No.
Reactivity to unsatisfied seeking may need investigation.
Is it not what is happening?

Don't ask what seeking is looking for, rather ask

What is 'seeking' running from?
As in : what is being avoided? A: that this is not OK.

What stands to gain from 'seeking', a someone? Yep - a someone .
Can there even be seeking without a someone?
Nope.

Yes, evidence of awareness

.
YES! And quietly, in such a moment, without the chitter chatter of the mind starting up again....

Is anything missing? Not now.
Is anything lacking? Ditto.
Is anything needed? Ditto.
Is there anywhere to go? No. It is just being.

Warm regards
Doug

[Noro]

Hello Doug,

Is anything missing? Not now.
Is anything lacking? Ditto.
Is anything needed? Ditto.
Is there anywhere to go? No. It is just being.

And that too is an appearance, and appearance is in constant flux!

Until next time,

Best regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,
Just checking if expecting reply? Or as in last guidance received: this appearing is inconstant flux?

Warm regards Doug

[Noro]

Hi Doug,

How is it going with you with this constant flux of appearance?

Are you 100% clear that even with all the seeming selfing arising from thoughts and feelings there is no separate self, and that there never has been? If you are, then I can send you some questions that will be shared with other guides who might have some question of their own. Either way, I am here to continue to be there for you when you feel the need to share your experience when it feels very personal.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[NearClear101]

Hi Rowena,

How is it going with you with this constant flux of appearance?
Way more relaxation and lightness flowing into experiences. There is far less climging to a point of view and need for reactivity ( even find intense energy appearing). Thankyou.


Are you 100% clear that even with all the seeming selfing arising from thoughts and feelings there is no separate self, and that there never has been?

Honestly, not 100% settled in this recognition.

Still entertaining thoughts of doubt: but noticing as thinking that floats in and out.
Similarly, thought "am I really experiencing" the no separate self now? Given, noticing not much difference ( expected more if a loss and impact) to pre beliefs about me and my story illusion!
Asking " is that it?". Also asking/future thinking syndrome "when does the fear and wall hit my experiences "?

Some "feeling of will power" required to push away this thinking.
Still, no self here.

If you are, then I can send you some questions that will be shared with other guides who might have some question of their own.
OK.
Either way, I am here to continue to be there for you when you feel the need to share your experience when it feels very personal.
Thankyou

Kind regards
Doug