Wandering here and there

[Noro]

Suppose if there are two of us sitting on dinner table, and he/she asks me to hand over that apple in bowl, we would be referring to the same color and shape which is already present in our direct experience. So I can not say what thought says is not found in direct experience. Instead it IS there in direct experience before he/she called it an apple.

This is tricky to answer. Especially as we haven't taken the inquiry very far yet. This question relates to CE (conventional experience.

Just consider this along the same lines as the Apple investigation:

In your direct experience, taking in the visual field in front of you. Prior to any interpretation, labels, etc. Is there an experience of people, trees, houses, animals, apples, oranges, grass, flowers to be found?

We will do a full inquiry with the visual field next.

[Howigothere]

Hi Rowena,

Where does it feel that the sound is?

I closed my eyes during this inquiry. Sound is just here. Only thought says different sounds are coming from different locations. Like sound of car from road, dog barking far away, sound of tv from inside the room. But in reality all sound are just here, there loudness varies.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

I am is nowhere or it could be referred as 'here' where the sound arises. It somehow becomes the sound.

Can any boundary that can be found anywhere between what seems to be hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

There seems to be no boundry. There is nothing then this nothing becomes the sound and again goes back to being nothing. Like waiting for sound to arise.

Can location or distance be known from simply hearing?

An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can any of these be found doing hearing?

There is no I or body, just the sound. 'Here' can not be located. Because for location there needs to be a point of reference. And there isn't any in this 'here'.

Can a hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

No separate hearer is found. Just the sound. When I open my eyes, thought comes along and says oh yeah this body is hearing that sound.

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.

There was not any body sensations at first. But a thought arose "how will I work like this? How will I move if there is only mix of sounds and visual perceptions moving around?" Then a fear arose as sensation in middle of chest area. It was exactly where the sound was. Both got mixed together and I lost my attention on sound.

Thanks
Jay

[Howigothere]

In your direct experience, taking in the visual field in front of you. Prior to any interpretation, labels, etc. Is there an experience of people, trees, houses, animals, apples, oranges, grass, flowers to be found?

When there are no labels, there are only colors(dark,light) and shapes and movement of these. A cars coming toward me on the road are seen as shapes getting bigger and bigger until they seem to pass through 'here'. Colors of these shapes get more vivid and shiny too. I feel like all my visual field is mushy like cloud and I could run my finger though it. Ofcourse my hand and fingers are part of the cloud and I literally would not be able to do it.😄

[Noro]

Hi Jay,

There was not any body sensations at first. But a thought arose "how will I work like this? How will I move if there is only mix of sounds and visual perceptions moving around?" Then a fear arose as sensation in middle of chest area. It was exactly where the sound was. Both got mixed together and I lost my attention on sound.

Im not sure that I understood what you meant when you said that you lost your attention on sound. Was it that the sensation labelled 'fear' became absorbed into the sound? Or, that the sensation labelled "fear" became all absorbing? Either way, it is a good practice to notice what is being felt in the body when working with the other senses. So often we have learned to place all our attention externally and have neglected our interior or kinesthetic experience.

When there are no labels, there are only colors(dark,light) and shapes and movement of these. A cars coming toward me on the road are seen as shapes getting bigger and bigger until they seem to pass through 'here'. Colors of these shapes get more vivid and shiny too. I feel like all my visual field is mushy like cloud and I could run my finger though it. Ofcourse my hand and fingers are part of the cloud and I literally would not be able to do it.

And as the visual field became mushy like a cloud, where were you?

If you repeat this 'meditation' is there a boundary to be found between the 'see-er' and what is seen?
Can an actual 'see-er' be found?
When attention is placed on body sensation, What is the kinesthetic experience


VISUAL FIELD

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and:

Look to your right.
Then look to your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, CLOSE YOUR EYES and look forward.

Okay, so when you look to the right, the view (visual experience) on the right is seen (whatever that is).

When you look to the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).

And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the visual experience in front is seen.

So, when the view on the right is seen, with eyes open, do you have the ‘choice’ to see or not to see? Y/N

I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘blank space’ if you close your eyes.
The question is:

Can you turn seeing off? Y/N
Can you NOT see what is seen? Y/N

Same thing when you are facing to your left, can there be a choice to NOT see the view on the left? Y/N
Same thing when you are facing forward with closed eyes, can you NOT see the what is seen? Y/N

Is there an independent self or 'doer' that can choose to turn seeing off or on? Y/N


Warmly,
Rowena

[Howigothere]

Was it that the sensation labelled 'fear' became absorbed into the sound? Or, that the sensation labelled "fear" became all absorbing?

Its like sound and fear get mixed into each other and I don't know what to focus my attention on. Then there are more thoughts fuelling the fear.

And as the visual field became mushy like a cloud, where were you?

If you repeat this 'meditation' is there a boundary to be found between the 'see-er' and what is seen?
Can an actual 'see-er' be found?
When attention is placed on body sensation, What is the kinesthetic experience

I can't say for sure where I am. But my body as visual object, bodily sensations(touch against seat, air hitting skin), sounds all are appearing here in the same place together and they are being known. Not sure where the knower is.

So, when the view on the right is seen, with eyes open, do you have the ‘choice’ to see or not to see? Y/N

No there is no choice of seeing or not seeing. View is there, I may like it or not like it and try to change the view but I can not unsee the seeing.

Can you turn seeing off? Y/N
Can you NOT see what is seen? Y/N

Same thing when you are facing to your left, can there be a choice to NOT see the view on the left? Y/N
Same thing when you are facing forward with closed eyes, can you NOT see the what is seen? Y/N

No I can not turn off the seeing. I may close my eyes and see mix of red and white dots/lines moving around against black background but I can not turn seeing off. Object just change appearance when I open or close my eyes.
This is interesting. I feel like I am always seeing. I am always here. Object just replace each other in the view.
Had an another insight while contemplating this. There is no time in deep sleep because there is no objects, sensations, sounds in deep sleep. This morning just before when I woke up, random thoughts started appearing first, then sounds and sensations of body rubbing against the bed, then view of my roof came in. I picked up my phone and saw 6:30 on the screen and realized my view of it just changed from 11:22pm to 6:30am. Only thought tells me I slept for these many hours or my family members could have seen my body laying down(thats a thought as well).
But question still remains-what or where was I during this? Or is this what we call timeless being? But what is it? Is it me?
I think I am just talking to myself now.

[Howigothere]

Is there an independent self or 'doer' that can choose to turn seeing off or on? Y/N

No there is no independent self who can turn off the seeing. This makes me feel like I am loosing control over my day to day life. Who would manage my life, take care of my family or better yet how is it being already done if there is no doer to turn on or turn off any type of experience.

[Noro]

Hi Jay,

Its like sound and fear get mixed into each other and I don't know what to focus my attention on. Then there are more thoughts fuelling the fear.

Generally, when there are strong feeling sensations, these are arising in order to be felt. Emotion = Energy in motion!
When you can be fully present with the sensations this will allow them to be processed. Other 'fearful' thoughts can arise too, but the thought loop can be disrupted by being fully present with the body sensations. And, not only the feeling sensations, I would suggest alternating with feeling the connection with the chair, the feet on the floor, etc. and allowing a kind of overall space for the feelings to flow into, and watch/feel them move around. I hope this is helpful.

This is interesting. I feel like I am always seeing.

A suggested rephrasing of the above: Seeing is always happening!

I am always here.

Yes, and what do you take yourself to be?


LOOKING OUT AT THE WORLD

Sit quietly, take a few deep breaths, look around you and take in the visual field (the world around you).
Ask yourself: "What do I see in front of my face" and let any thoughts/labels be there..
Now, let go of all thoughts and labels and keep looking out at the visual field,

Without interpreting by thought, are there actual objects out there? Yes/No
If yes, how is those objects known other than through thought?
Is there actual distance? Yes/No
If yes, how is distance known?
Can distance be found through the visual field alone?
Does the visual field describe itself?

Now bring your focus onto particular object in the visual field. Let go of all thoughts about the object, simply keep your attention on the object.
Can a division or boundary be found to separate 'you' (observing) and the object? Yes/No?
Now, look for an actual 'you' or "I" that is seeing?
Can a separate "I" be found?
Is a separate "I" necessary in order for seeing to happen, Or, can seeing happen without an "I" that sees?

Object just replace each other in the view.

Yes.


Had an another insight while contemplating this. There is no time in deep sleep because there is no objects, sensations, sounds in deep sleep. This morning just before when I woke up, random thoughts started appearing first, then sounds and sensations of body rubbing against the bed, then view of my roof came in. I picked up my phone and saw 6:30 on the screen and realized my view of it just changed from 11:22pm to 6:30am. Only thought tells me I slept for these many hours or my family members could have seen my body laying down(thats a thought as well).
But question still remains-what or where was I during this? Or is this what we call timeless being? But what is it? Is it me?
I think I am just talking to myself now.

Yes, thinking happening!!

Warmly regards,
Rowena

[Noro]

Is there an independent self or 'doer' that can choose to turn seeing off or on? Y/N

No there is no independent self who can turn off the seeing. This makes me feel like I am loosing control over my day to day life. Who would manage my life, take care of my family or better yet how is it being already done if there is no doer to turn on or turn off any type of experience.

Jay, let's take a look in your direct experience.
Thoughts are arising :"This makes me feel like I am loosing control over my day to day life."
What does that feel like? Please go to the body and feel the sensations.
Please report back

Who would manage my life, take care of my family or better yet how is it being already done if there is no doer to turn on or turn off any type of experience.

This is exactly what we are looking at together during this inquiry.

If there is any anxiety about this, please know that this is quite natural as long standing assumptions have been in place and these are now being questioned, and so thoughts are arising in alarm, and there will be body sensations also. The thought loops will be dismantled when you go into the body and allow the sensations to be felt.

Here is an analogy: Have you ever been in a self-driving car? I have not, but I imagine that when I do get in one I am going to want to grab the steering wheel - an old ingrained habit pattern!

[Howigothere]

Hi Rowena

I will report to your questions in next post.

Can not seem to shake off a thought "It's me, everything is me. But why do I still take it seriously(my life circumstances), if its just a play. I want to play. Why so serious?" A lot of this kind of thinking. The reason I am stuck is I seem to believe this thinking even though i see these are just thoughts. Where am I in thinking? Or there is no I and just space where thinking is coming out of. I have heard(now I regret listening to Osho or Rupert spira)this space is me but I do not seem to make contact with it. And before you know it, I am back to more thinking.
This the loop I am currently in. Just wanted to share with someone.
Back to the inquiry.
Thanks
Jay

[Noro]

Hi Jay,

Can not seem to shake off a thought "It's me, everything is me. But why do I still take it seriously(my life circumstances), if its just a play. I want to play. Why so serious?"

This is good Jay. You are seeing the play of apparent contradiction going on.
Look at all these thoughts! WHAT knows these thoughts? Look there without trying to get an answer.
Is there any 'one' or "I" or "knower" or is there simply "knowing' of thoughts?
What is objecting to the label serious?
What wants things to be other than they are?
Maybe 'serious' needs to be felt, after all it is present and will likely not go away until it is fully allowed to be felt.
How does 'serious' feel in the body?
And when attention is placed on the feelings labelled 'serious' what comes up?
This last question is the one to stay with.
Please report back what you find regarding "serious". It is there for a reason.

Warm wishes,
Rowena

[Howigothere]

Hi Rowena

What does that feel like?

This feels like I have lost all my knowledge but all the experience is still 'here'. That feels frightening(to not know anything). That sensation of fear in the body brings me back to Jay's world. Where I know things and kind of feel like I can control things. Which is not true in the ultimate sense. When I stay with the sensation of fear, it passes, but I am still back in Jay's world. Manytimes I get distracted in thought or one of experience gets my attention and I forget fear.

Maybe 'serious' needs to be felt, after all it is present and will likely not go away until it is fully allowed to be felt.
How does 'serious' feel in the body?
And when attention is placed on the feelings labelled 'serious' what comes up?

It feels like a ball of tension, frustration, anger and helplessness which when comes, sits in middle of the body. My body sometimes wants to curl up in a ball due to this feeling. Feels like minor panic attack. I try to keep remembering it is going to pass. But when its in full flow I just feel helpless.

Thanks
Jay

[Noro]

Hello Jay,

This feels like I have lost all my knowledge but all the experience is still 'here'. That feels frightening(to not know anything). That sensation of fear in the body brings me back to Jay's world. Where I know things and kind of feel like I can control things. Which is not true in the ultimate sense. When I stay with the sensation of fear, it passes, but I am still back in Jay's world. Manytimes I get distracted in thought or one of experience gets my attention and I forget fear.

Yes, this is what it feels like for a while. Remember, thinking is simply happening, sensations are arising:
"This feels like I have lost all my knowledge................ "
Is there a 'you' or "I" that can be found separate from your immediate experience?
Or, is it an assumption that you have never investigated, just taken as fact?
Yes, we can continue to use personal pronouns in communicating with each other, in exactly the same way as before,
but do the personal words "I", "Me", "You" "We" actually refer to any separate, independent personal entity or entities?
And, for sure, it certainly feels like there is an "I" subject here and an object over there, but when the subject starts looking within the field of the body and its sensations, that too becomes an object doesn't it!
So what is this subject?
Can a separate subject be found?
Feeling something to be so does not provide the proof of it being so.
Go to the feeling, to the body sensations, and stay there.
Don't forget fear, stay with it, become curious, watch the movement of body sensations, and then watch as thought comes in and grabs attention.

Maybe 'serious' needs to be felt, after all it is present and will likely not go away until it is fully allowed to be felt.
How does 'serious' feel in the body?
And when attention is placed on the feelings labelled 'serious' what comes up?

It feels like a ball of tension, frustration, anger and helplessness which when comes, sits in middle of the body. My body sometimes wants to curl up in a ball due to this feeling. Feels like minor panic attack. I try to keep remembering it is going to pass. But when its in full flow I just feel helpless.

This energy labelled "helplessness" has to be accompanied. It is the summation of all the pressures of life that have been conditioned into a bodymind system, to achieve, to succeed, to fit in, to be good; taken on since childhood. The 'useful' knowing learned from the conditioning will not leave, functioning will still happen, but it will be more free and easy without the layer of contracted energy of the "I" thought. Stay with it....what's in the way IS the way!

This poem by Rumi says it perfectly:
Translated by Coleman Barks

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.



When you share again Jay, please write as direct inquiry, be curious at what is arising:
Thinking: I feel ...................
Feeling: Body sensations of...............
More thinking:..........................
Different body sensations .............................

And finally,
LABEL- REALITY CORRELATION: GREEN-RED

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with reality, (i.e. direct experience). But they don't necessarily. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?
Is the color red experienced, or is the color green experienced as the label suggests?

Does the label GREEN have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label GREEN is replaced with the label GOOD or BAD , is the 'redness' affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Do the labels have an actual effect on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is actually SEEN?

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Howigothere]

Hi Rowena,

When you look at the word label GREEN, what is the actual experience?

The actual experience is of red letters. Word refers to a different color, so an image of something green comes up in thought(grass,trees). Seeing of red letters and image of grass seems to appear at the same place. But one seems to fade when other is given an attention. It feels like one of those gestalt cards I used to play with as a kid. I can see only one thing, red letters or image of green grass, while both are present at the same time 'here'.

Does the label GREEN have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

No. Green is just a word written in red letters. Direct experience here and now. It refers to something else though. As per the meaning given to it in language.

If the label GREEN is replaced with the label GOOD or BAD , is the 'redness' affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’? Do the labels have an actual effect on ‘reality’?

No these are just red letter words. Meanings of Good or bad has nothing to do with the redness of the letters. Letters could be of any color, meaning would be same. Meaning of the word and color of letters has no relation and does not affect each other. Direct experience of redness stays the same even if the meaning of the word changes. I feel seeing is only thing that remain constant in both experiences. There is seeing of red letter word, then there is seeing of the image of green grass that this word refers to.
I am not sure if I am responding to the questions in right way.

Is there a 'you' or "I" that can be found separate from your immediate experience?
Or, is it an assumption that you have never investigated, just taken as fact?

No there is no separate I to be found anywhere. Only constant thing is seeing/experiencing of/attending to current direct experience 'here'. Could be seeing of colors, feeling of sensations, hearing of sounds etc. These are all happening at the same time. Others seems to fade in background when attention is given to one particular thing. Like right now brown color of table is being seen and all body sensations,sound of traffic go into the background. Everything is there but only one thing can be attended to at a given moment.

When its seen that there is no separate I, There is no motivation to work or do anything except attending to the requirements of the body(eating, drinking water, going to the bathroom). I feel like of no use, just experience happening moment to moment. Only knowing of experience is here.

Thanks
Jay

[Noro]

Hello Jay,

When its seen that there is no separate I, There is no motivation to work or do anything except attending to the requirements of the body(eating, drinking water, going to the bathroom). I feel like of no use, just experience happening moment to moment. Only knowing of experience is here.

What's it that sees that there is no separate "I"? Where is it to be found?
What is motivation to work or do anything comprised of in direct experience?
Dont we say "I dont feel motivated....." = thought, + what is being felt when that is said?
What is this "I" that feels like of no use? Where is it found?
Can a feeling be of any use or not? Is this not simply a thought?

My sense is that when you have these moments when you see that there is no actual "I" to be found, this is a time to let the experience settle and BE WITH the felt sense of the whole body. There is perhaps some grieving that needs to be done and this is quite natural. Thoughts like the above might arise, but let them pass through and give them no serious attention. The "I" is a conditioned experience, now there is a period of de-conditioning and so some adjustment time must be allowed. I dont know if this is a good analogy but here goes: Imagine a small child that led to believe that it is going to have the star part in the school play, (an assumption not a fact) and then when the auditions came up that didnt happen, so there was a felt sense of deflation.... it is something like that.


CUP EXERCISE - TWO TYPES OF THOUGHTS
Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought. This can be done with eyes open or closed. There is no actual, physical cup in front of you.

There are two types of thoughts: a thought label "This is a cup", and a mental (visual) image of a 'cup'.

Think of a cup, get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. 
Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp or touch that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a "real' cup or just an image of a cup?
Is the imagined content of the mental image (the cup) 'real'?

Thoughts and mental images about a cup do not make the cup 'real', even when there is a 'real' physical cup in the kitchen relatively speaking. The direct experience of thinking cannot be denied. However the contents of thought, what the thoughts are about, are not 'real', they are interpretations overlaid onto the direct experience.
Can you see this?


Now try the same exercise with a bar of chocolate.
Imagine yourself opening the packaging and eating a piece of the chocolate?

Do either of the above two imaginings seem more 'real' than the other?
Was there a body response to one or both of the two imaginings?
Let me know how you get on.

Warm regards,
Rowena