Nezinau

[Vytas2222]

Hi Rali


Good. You noticed that movement may begin before the thought “I am moving” appears.
Now let’s look carefully at what you call: “emptiness,” “liveness,” and “the experience before movement.”

Are emptiness and liveness directly found?

No.

Or are these words added afterward to describe something?

I can't answer as the sensation vanished ....

When movement begins, can a separate moment called “before the movement” actually be observed?
No

Or is the movement noticed, and then thought says: “There was emptiness before it.”

I can't answer it from sensation. Yes, probably as I can't feel this sensation at the moment. So my answer would be from the story. If I look now there is just movement happening and after that the thought comes i lifted the arm.

Look during one simple movement. Do not wait for emptiness. Do not try to catch a special gap.
Just notice:

Lifting hand

Was there a sensation?

Yes , arms move

Was there an intention?

Could you elaborate what is intention ? i have read to lift the hand and then lifting the hand ? If in this case i Have read the text the thought came I will use excercise lifting ar because i can move it quickly and slowly. But when the lifting comes there is no specific intention its pure sensation the arm is lifting and then the thought.

Was there movement?

Yes

Was there thought?

YEs

What was directly present, and what was added afterward as a description?

The arm started to lift , the thoughts go after that. like typing no the text on the keyboard , the thought attention moves to the keyboard and the thoughts come I am typing. The pure sensation on the touching the keyboard... So its all labels just wanted to share. The other example would be while I am sitting I am moving my legs without any thought an intention ,, only after some time the focus thought comes and says why I am moving the leg...

Also notice whether looking for the “moment before” creates tension or expectation.

I dont know , you cant look for it it just happening , as the thoughts come with delay ... ITs like sorry for the expression like catching your shadow.

So if there are no sensations and there is nothingness, that's often a subtle thought that is trying to create something.
This could also be called aliveness, presence or I AM, but even that is a label, is it not?

Yes its label.

Is there anything here that is not the senses?

only senses and thoughts about those senses


Those would be “physical”, but there are also sensations when you close your eyes that don't have a location (unless they are mapped onto an mental image of the body).
The way I look at sensations is that they include anything that is sensed, such as touching a cup or a feeling of nothingness/emptiness. It's good to remember that we can only experience see, hear, feel, taste, smell and thought. Anything not in the first five is thought.

Without the label emptiness, do you notice that these are also sensations?

I can't tell from direct experience , but recalling memory yes it's a senstaion

One important clarification:
This inquiry is not about creating a special state. It is not about becoming more empty, more present, or more aware. It is not about changing experience. Experience is already happening, and you cannot control it in the way thought claims.
We are only looking at what is actually present, and what is added by thought.
So when “emptiness,” “liveness,” or a gap before movement appears, do not try to keep it or repeat it.

Just check:
Is this directly present?
Or is thought describing what happened?
The aim is not a different experience.
The aim is to see clearly what is real in direct experience, and what exists only as a label, image, interpretation, or story.

as I mentioned before I can't recall and see as different sensations come and go. The thought rise after sensation i can see it in different patterns if you can call it.


Thanks Rali , for your time :) and have a great day....

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas
It’s my pleasure guiding you! :)

I can't answer as the sensation vanished ....

Good. It is completely correct to say, “I cannot answer from direct experience now.”
Do not use memory to complete an answer. When the sensation is gone, only the memory and story about it are present. Look next time when it happens

Could you elaborate what is intention ?

An intention may appear as: a thought such as “I will lift the hand,” an urge to move, a feeling of readiness, or a movement beginning without any clear thought. We are not assuming that intention must be present. Let’s look during ordinary actions rather than repeating the hand exercise. Notice one spontaneous action during the day: scratching an itch, reaching for a drink, changing sitting position, turning toward a sound. At that moment, check:
Was there an urge or thought before the movement?
If an intention appeared, did you create it?
Did the intention itself move the body?
Was there a separate doer between the intention and the movement?
Or were there an urge, movement, sensations, and thoughts describing what happened?
Do not try to catch a special moment. Do not rely on memory. When a clear example happens naturally, describe the order as simply as possible.

The arm started to lift

Notice that “arm” and “lifting” are useful descriptions. In direct experience there may be changing colours and sensations, followed by thought naming them.
There is no need to remove those labels. Just recognise that they are descriptions, not separate things performing the action.
Love
Rali
Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hi Rali :)

An intention may appear as: a thought such as “I will lift the hand,” an urge to move, a feeling of readiness, or a movement beginning without any clear thought. We are not assuming that intention must be present. Let’s look during ordinary actions rather than repeating the hand exercise. Notice one spontaneous action during the day: scratching an itch, reaching for a drink, changing sitting position, turning toward a sound. At that moment, check:

Was there an urge or thought before the movement?

"Itching "- sensation appeared ,urge for scratching appeared

If an intention appeared, did you create it?

No

Did the intention itself move the body?

I experience two ways, one time itching appears - hand moves to scratch ,,, Other itching appears , thought appears its itching urge to scratch .

Was there a separate doer between the intention and the movement?
Or were there an urge, movement, sensations, and thoughts describing what happened?

So their is sensation , itching , so as I mentioned some time you already scratching it and the thought comes I am scratching it. Other type of formation sensation - itching , urge creates , thought comes its itching , I dont see this part itching is going the thought you can scratch or you can not scratch... This is not clear to me when you think you decide to scratch or not but its just thought itching is a sensation ...

Do not try to catch a special moment. Do not rely on memory. When a clear example happens naturally, describe the order as simply as possible.

Sensation appears - movenvement happens , thought comes I am scratching
Sensation appears - Thought says oi its itching - but movement is delayed now feeling it it looks like you can scratch or not at the moment i feel sensation of itching pulse near my stomach.

Good day .. Rali :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)
Good. This is exactly the part to look at now.

I experience two ways, one time itching appears - hand moves to scratch ,,, Other itching appears , thought appears its itching urge to scratch .

Great! You noticed two different patterns:
sensation → movement → thought “I am scratching”
sensation → urge → thought “it is itching” → then it seems there is a choice to scratch or not.

This is not clear to me when you think you decide to scratch or not but its just thought itching is a sensation ...

Let’s have a look at the idea of choice, control, and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.

Let’s not just wait for another itch but do the hand again…
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)
Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions. The uncertainty is useful — stay there and look.

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Let’s not just wait for another itch but do the hand again…
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?

Hand is moving

Does a thought control it?

no

Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?

no

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
I don't know :)
1. If you turn over and over - their is no decider to turn it - after that the thought comes i am turning the hand
2. know over way , i hold the hand and the thought comes turn the hand and stop - and the hand turns - after that the thought i have turned the hand
But still they are not connected clearly , it seems that the impuls to turn the hand is before even the the thought then the thought turn the hand and it turns - its like separate things but looks connected just another thought :)

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2.

Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Took water and tea

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

Step2. Count to 5.

Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1

when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They appeared by them selves. No I didn't choose them they just popped up.

In step 2

when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

The counting just started , I didn't choose this sequence / Just the counting appeared it muted the preferences / No .

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

The impuls or the choosing was already moving , only after the thought came and the thought came , how it was chosen. Its like to disconnected things thought and the thing that happens .

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Going to the lake for all day to friends house and sauna yesterday .
First we have to take children from the other place 1 hour journey , I was talking with the friend and the thought popped in my head maybe also visiting him , but we had to be back earlier. The friends said they are going, my wife said that we can take the children and also go there after taking the children ... I was analysing this situation yesterday , as i thought my wife wont go there 100% , also children and other causes as we had to get back early .. Being honest nothing had influence from my side of course I wanted to go ,but the decision was not depending on me ...

Have a greta Monday :)
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)
Good looking. With the hand and the drinks, you noticed something interesting: an impulse appears, a movement (sensation) happens. Thought may say “turn the hand” or “choose this.” Then another thought says “I chose” or “I did it.” But when you look for the actual chooser, nothing separate can be found. So thought is nothing but a commentary over what is already happening.

Now let’s look once more at the bigger decision.

Going to the lake for all day to friends house and sauna yesterday .
First we have to take children from the other place 1 hour journey , I was talking with the friend and the thought popped in my head maybe also visiting him , but we had to be back earlier. The friends said they are going, my wife said that we can take the children and also go there after taking the children ... I was analysing this situation yesterday , as i thought my wife wont go there 100% , also children and other causes as we had to get back early .. Being honest nothing had influence from my side of course I wanted to go ,but the decision was not depending on me ...

Look at “ from my side of course I wanted to go”.
Did you choose the wanting?
Could you have decided, at that exact moment, to genuinely want the opposite? Did you choose your wife’s response? The children’s situation? The timing? Your friend’s invitation?
The thoughts that appeared while considering it? The preference to go?
The “decision” was simply the name thought gives to the outcome when all the conditions come together.

I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before.
But look even deeper…
Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language.
What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”.
So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?
Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE "things" are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for "things" to happen?

Now, among all of the supposed conditions, can you find one separate thing called “Vytas” that stands outside the conditions and makes the decision?
Do not answer from logic. LOOK!
Take another recent decision (one that feels entirely your decision, not your wife's) and watch:
What appeared first?
What preferences appeared?
What thoughts appeared?
What finally happened?
At what exact point can a chooser be found?
And if a thought says, “I decided,” did that thought itself make the decision—or is it describing what has already happened?

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hi Rali ,

Thanks for taking your time to guide me :)

Look at “ from my side of course I wanted to go”.

Did you choose the wanting?

No — the wanting arose by itself

Could you have decided, at that exact moment, to genuinely want the opposite?

No

Did you choose your wife’s response? The children’s situation? The timing? Your friend’s invitation?
The thoughts that appeared while considering it? The preference to go?

No — none of them. Every condition arrived on its own; being honest, nothing depended on me.

The “decision” was simply the name thought gives to the outcome when all the conditions come together.

But look even deeper…
Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language.
What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”.

So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear?

they just appear. No maker is found in the appearing; because is added afterward by thought.

Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

No , in direct experience there are only events, one after another, and the thought because after that.

Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE "things" are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for "things" to happen?

No , thoughts just describe what already happened. Its like i lightning you see it and only after some time you hear it ...

Now, among all of the supposed conditions, can you find one separate thing called “Vytas” that stands outside the conditions and makes the decision?
No , just looking for Vytas is happening but not found.

Do not answer from logic. LOOK!

Take another recent decision (one that feels entirely your decision, not your wife's) and watch:
What appeared first?
What preferences appeared?
What thoughts appeared?
What finally happened?
At what exact point can a chooser be found?

go home after work - First appeared tiredness and the clock, then the thought "go home" — then an email with a meeting link arrived and staying happened. The whole chain ran itself; one uninvited email flipped the "decision." No chooser found anywhere.

And if a thought says, “I decided,” did that thought itself make the decision—or is it describing what has already happened?

NO , the thought just descirbed waht already happened its past event - It's a commentator with delay — describing a match it never played.

Happy Tuesday :)
Vytas - not found :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)
It’s my pleasure guiding you! :)

The whole chain ran itself; one uninvited email flipped the "decision." No chooser found anywhere.

Good. This is becoming much clearer.
Now let’s look at responsibility.
If no separate chooser can be found, what does “I am responsible” mean in direct experience?
Take one simple real-life example. For example… You forget something important / You say something that hurts someone. / You finish a task well. / You make a mistake at work.
What actually happens?
Are there actions?
Are there consequences?
Are there thoughts such as: “I should not have done that.”/ “I did well.” / “This is my fault.” / “I am responsible.”?
Can an entity that owns the action be found?
Does seeing no separate chooser mean that consequences disappear?
Does learning disappear?
Does apologising disappear?
Does correcting a mistake disappear?
Look carefully:
What is actually responsible for what happens next?
And when thought says, “Vytas did this,” what does the word “Vytas” point to in direct experience?
Please use one recent real-life example, not a general answer.

I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But is the icon of email really a box with a letter in it?
An icon called ‘Documents’ is useful. You click it and something happens. But the little picture itself is not the files. In the same way, labels such as: ‘hand’ / ‘children’/ ‘responsibility’ /‘decision’ / ‘Vytas’ are useful for functioning/flow.
But does the label ‘hand’ exist inside the colours and sensations?
Does the label ‘children’ contain the actual living experience?
Does ‘responsibility’ exist as a thing somewhere, or is it a useful concept describing actions, consequences, learning, correcting, apologising, etc.?
The icon is useful without being the actuality. Can the same be said about these labels?
Do they need to disappear?
Or is it enough to see that they are useful descriptions, not separate entities?

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali :)

Take one simple real-life example. For example… You forget something important / You say something that hurts someone. / You finish a task well. / You make a mistake at work.

I have made mistake at work with calculations

Now let’s look at responsibility.

If no separate chooser can be found, what does “I am responsible” mean in direct experience?

Mistake happened , then the thought comes "I have made a mistake"

What actually happens?

Mistake happened , then the thought comes "I have made a mistake" , i can't see it in direct exxperience as it is past event but sensation happens - thought mistake was made - thought I have made a mistake

Are there actions?

In direct experience no as I understand the question, only thoughts about thoughts

Are there consequences?

Yes but consequences is also ongoing thing , everything happens as happens. Consequences are separate events but consequences is also a thought ....

Are there thoughts such as: “I should not have done that.”/ “I did well.” / “This is my fault.” / “I am responsible.”?

yes thoughts come , This is my fault ,why I have done it , how it happened / I am responsible for it.

Can an entity that owns the action be found?

No

Does seeing no separate chooser mean that consequences disappear?

No , consequences just happen or not ... They are separate events nad the thought only unites them and say they are consequences.

Does learning disappear?

What is ment by learning ? learning is also a process , but the thought " I have learned and will not do such mistake " is just a thought , happens what happens.

Does apologising disappear?

apologising to whom ? If my own apologising is just another thought , that takes the past event and another thought to tell why I am not guilty.

Does correcting a mistake disappear?

No . But correcting mistake is another event ... Just the mind label separate events to one event ....

Look carefully:

What is actually responsible for what happens next? And when thought says, “Vytas did this,” what does the word “Vytas” point to in direct experience?

Mistake happened , mistake was made ... responsible is just a label. This mistake could not be undone o corrected as it mistake happened. Correcting mistake is just another thought combining to separate events ... There is no responsible for what happens next , things happen in this case new calculations where made but its another event. In direct experience Vytas points to me , when you look for Vytas you cant find it. It points to fictional character thought ...

I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But is the icon of email really a box with a letter in it?

no

An icon called ‘Documents’ is useful. You click it and something happens. But the little picture itself is not the files. In the same way, labels such as: ‘hand’ / ‘children’/ ‘responsibility’ /‘decision’ / ‘Vytas’ are useful for functioning/flow.

But does the label ‘hand’ exist inside the colours and sensations?

No

Does the label ‘children’ contain the actual living experience?

No

Does ‘responsibility’ exist as a thing somewhere, or is it a useful concept describing actions, consequences, learning, correcting, apologising, etc.?

Its a concept floating concept that describing thought about thoughts and events gathering justifying them in one label (like a festival name )

The icon is useful without being the actuality. Can the same be said about these labels?

Yes they are useful as words to communicate with others in language.

Do they need to disappear?

No but I am writing also from thoughts :) no they don't need to disappear .... just they need to be seen.

Or is it enough to see that they are useful descriptions, not separate entities?

Yes .

One more thing as yesterday was answering questions with different type of events regarding the responsibility , but what was seen more is the guilt ....

Then looked at guilt. Saw guilt is the same structure - sensation plus 'I did wrong' plus 'I'm not enough' — no guilty one behind it. Guilt runs under almost every thought — family, money, 'should be different.' Its core is always 'I'm not enough,' always about a past or future me. Looked now: that not-enough one is never found in the present moment. Only ever a thought about before or after.

have a good day Rali :) waiting for your responce

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)

One thing to watch for now is a subtle bypass that can happen after seeing there is no separate self.
The bypassing can sound like: “no me, no problem” / “no one did it” / “nothing matters”/ “it’s all just events” /“there is nobody to apologise” / “there is nobody responsible”. That can become another thought strategy for moving away from uncomfortable feelings.
The fact that no separate self can be found does not remove pain, guilt, consequences, care, learning from mistakes, apology, or correction. I’m not saying that the story is where we should be looking, but labels are useful not just for communication but also for flow. They are like shortcuts. Seeing that “responsibility,” “mistake,” “consequence,” and “Vytas” are labels does not mean that nothing matters, that actions do not happen, or that correcting and apologising become meaningless. The labels are like the icons we discussed. They are not the actuality, but they are useful for functioning. If words hurt someone, an apology may happen. If a child needs care, care still happens. That is how "responsibility" happens without a doer
Before we go further let me make some distinctions, which will helps deal with the “guilt”.

One more thing as yesterday was answering questions with different type of events regarding the responsibility , but what was seen more is the guilt ....
Then looked at guilt. Saw guilt is the same structure - sensation plus 'I did wrong' plus 'I'm not enough' — no guilty one behind it. Guilt runs under almost every thought — family, money, 'should be different.' Its core is always 'I'm not enough,' always about a past or future me. Looked now: that not-enough one is never found in the present moment. Only ever a thought about before or after.

Psychoanalysis or therapy may address the narrative surrounding the situation (the story - I'm not enough/I always fail because of that and that), but inquiry demands turning away from the story entirely to confront and create space for the resulting uncomfortable sensation in the body, while bypassing is the trick thoughts play to skip the uncomfortable confrontation altogether by relying on intellectual insights or deflection – no me, no problem. However, the pattern of avoidance is still here, until it’s seen properly. There is a possibility that the pattern continues even after no self is found. The conditioned response doesn’t have to vanish for its premise to be seen through.

So if guilt appears, do not use “there is no guilty one” to get away from it. Stay with what is actually here. Do not ask whether there is a guilty person – you’ve seen there are no entities. Do not tell yourself that guilt is only thought. Feel what is actually there.

What is the sensation? Where is the sensation? What is its texture? Does it have a boundary?
Stay with the sensation before the story “I’m not enough.” Then notice the thought.
What does thought add? Does the sensation itself say “wrong”? Does it say “not enough”? Does it contain a past? Does it contain a future? Or are those added by thought?
What happens if neither the guilt story nor the “no-self” story is used?
Does seeing that there is no separate guilty self make the sensation disappear?
Can the sensation be fully felt without turning it into “my guilt”?
And can practical responsibility still happen without finding a separate controller?
That keeps “no-self” from becoming a new defence, or an emotional anaesthesia.

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali ,

So if guilt appears, do not use “there is no guilty one” to get away from it. Stay with what is actually here. Do not ask whether there is a guilty person – you’ve seen there are no entities. Do not tell yourself that guilt is only thought. Feel what is actually there.

What is the sensation? Where is the sensation? What is its texture? Does it have a boundary?

It's the sensation , "heaviness" in "legs" ... First look it feels liek in legs , then looked it desolves

Stay with the sensation before the story “I’m not enough.” Then notice the thought.

What does thought add? Does the sensation itself say “wrong”? Does it say “not enough”? Does it contain a past? Does it contain a future? Or are those added by thought?

It sensation , then thought , the sensation is just a sensation, It doesn't contain past or future. Everything is added on to by thoughts

What happens if neither the guilt story nor the “no-self” story is used?

Just the "pure" sensation

Does seeing that there is no separate guilty self make the sensation disappear?

No , but it's becoming less intense.

Can the sensation be fully felt without turning it into “my guilt”?

yes

And can practical responsibility still happen without finding a separate controller?

Yes.
That keeps “no-self” from becoming a new defence, or an emotional anaesthesia.

Have a wonderful day :)
Vytas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)
Good. One thing to notice now…

First look it feels liek in legs , then looked it desolves

No , but it's becoming less intense.

When you say the sensation “dissolves,” be careful not to turn this into a method for getting rid of guilt. The point is not: “Feel the sensation so it disappears.” The point is simply to see what is actually there. Sometimes the sensation may soften. Sometimes it may stay. Sometimes it may become stronger. None of those outcomes means the looking is better or worse. Sensations come, stay and eventually go, but is that dependent on anything? So next time guilt appears, check:
Can the sensation be allowed exactly as it is, even if it does not change?
Is there any urge to make it disappear?
If there is, what is that urge in direct experience?
Does the sensation itself ask to be removed?
Or does thought say: “This should go.” / “I want this gone.” / “I will feel better when this disappears.”
Then look at the practical side too. If a mistake was made, can correction happen while guilt is still present?
Can apology happen?
Can learning happen?
Can responsibility function without using guilt as punishment?

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hi Rali ,

Sensations come, stay and eventually go, but is that dependent on anything? So next time guilt appears, check:

Can the sensation be allowed exactly as it is, even if it does not change?

yes

Is there any urge to make it disappear?

So in steps , guilt appears for not making enough at work for example , Looking in sensation , there is no urge in direct experience , but the urge is the thought (i need to change it , i dont like it , you should.. ) so in direct experience there is no urge found.

If there is, what is that urge in direct experience?

A thought

Does the sensation itself ask to be removed?

no

Or does thought say: “This should go.” / “I want this gone.” / “I will feel better when this disappears.”

yes it the thought that wants to change sensation

Then look at the practical side too. If a mistake was made, can correction happen while guilt is still present?

If we are talking in direct experience or present moment no as you start correcting the guilt goes away .... I am not sure. Tried to look .

Can apology happen?

Yes and no

Can learning happen?

Yes and no

Can responsibility function without using guilt as punishment?

Yes and no

I will try to go through lets take a time at work , going for a cigarete and coffe and the guilt shows up - you should be working , its not enough and so on ...
when action starts the guilt goes away or the thought . As I see.

Vytas
Best regards :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)
Let’s make this very precise.

guilt appears for not making enough at work for example , Looking in sensation , there is no urge in direct experience , but the urge is the thought (i need to change it , i dont like it , you should.. ) so in direct experience there is no urge found.

When action starts, the guilt goes away.

When you say “guilt appears,” what is actually present?
There may be a sensation. Then thoughts such as: “you should be working” / “you are not doing enough” / “you should change this”. The sensation itself does not say “guilt.” The word “guilt” is a label for the sensation + the story around it.
Now look at the thought itself.
Does the thought change the sensation?
Can you actually see the thought causing anything?
Does the thought make the action happen?
Or are there: sensation, thought, more sensation (movement/action), and then more thought explaining what happened?
For example: sensation appears, thought says “you should work,” then work starts.
Can you find an actual link where the thought makes the body work?
Or does thought simply comment on and describe the flow?

Next time guilt appears, watch very closely. There is the sensation, then thought about guilt, then some action begins.
At the exact moment action starts:
Does the sensation actually disappear?
Or is it simply no longer noticed because attention (commentary) is now on the action?
Can the guilt sensation still be found if you stop for a moment and look?
Also notice:
Did you choose the urge to act?
Did you choose the thought “I should do something”?
Does the action come to solve a practical situation?
Or does it also move away from an uncomfortable sensation?
Do not decide in advance. Just watch one real example.

And regarding:

Can apology happen?
Can learning happen?
Can responsibility happen?

yes and no.

That is fine for now. Do not answer these as philosophy or from a point of view of the story. Wait until one actually happens in daily life. Then report:
What happened?
What sensations appeared?
What thoughts appeared?
What action followed?
Was a separate controller needed for any of it?

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali ,

When you say “guilt appears,” what is actually present?

yes , sensation + guilt

Now look at the thought itself.

Does the thought change the sensation?

no

Can you actually see the thought causing anything?

no

Does the thought make the action happen?

no

Or are there: sensation, thought, more sensation (movement/action), and then more thought explaining what happened?

yes , they a separate events .

For example: sensation appears, thought says “you should work,” then work starts.

Can you find an actual link where the thought makes the body work?

No actual link , cant see it , maybe thge thought after that that the prior thought made an event to start.

Or does thought simply comment on and describe the flow?

Yes , the thought describes the flow.

Next time guilt appears, watch very closely. There is the sensation, then thought about guilt, then some action begins.
At the exact moment action starts:
Does the sensation actually disappear?
Or is it simply no longer noticed because attention (commentary) is now on the action?
Can the guilt sensation still be found if you stop for a moment and look?

- can't check the exact moment , as I am catching it with the thought
- just the focus/attention moves to action
- yes the sensation and guilt can be still found if you stop for a moment and look - but its also just a thought commenting on what happening that the action stopped and the looking was made its also commented after that.

Also notice:

Did you choose the urge to act?

no

Did you choose the thought “I should do something”?

no

Does the action come to solve a practical situation?
Or does it also move away from an uncomfortable sensation?

- action comes as it comes , I cant see is it move away from uncomfortable sensation but the actions switches the attention to action ... The moving away from uncomfortible sitaution is also a thought that comes after that.

That is fine for now. Do not answer these as philosophy or from a point of view of the story. Wait until one actually happens in daily life. Then report:

What happened?

The guilt appeared that during my work I am doing inquiry , the thought came you could work and be more productive.

What sensations appeared?

Sensation in upper legs appeared

What thoughts appeared?

Why you are doing inquiry , when you could go back to tasks , urge thought - lets finish this inquiry and get abck to work.

What action followed?

Reading and finishing inquiry , but without the urge ....

Was a separate controller needed for any of it?

No

best regards Vytas :)