Ready to have a real look

[Stephi]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? There is no entity that is causing one's behaviour and thoughts. There is no controller or doer. There is no one to exercise free will. Life is happening, and its events and actions are then attributed to an "I", which doesn't exist. LU is helping to unsee this illusion.

What are you looking for at LU? I have been reading and doing some self-inquiry on my own. However, up to now, I have not really engaged with anyone who has an experiential understanding of this. That is what I am looking for: to speak with someone who has recognised "no self" and can guide me from where I am.
Ultimately, it would obviously be amazing to then see this as well, to not "loose it" (or fall for the illusion of losing it), and to suffer less.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I don't have many expectations. I guess there will be questions and pointers, and I will do my best to look and answer. Perhaps there are some pitfalls or unhelpful assumptions that I am not aware of that the guide may detect.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I did some meditation a few years ago, but I wasn't seeking anything and eventually stopped because I couldn't find any enjoyment in it.

Most of my background comes from reading. About a year ago, I stumbled upon non-dual literature and was amazed. It suddenly seemed that the experiential realisation of no-self was possible (the belief was there before), even without meditating for many years or being chosen by the universe. I read quite a lot and resonated most with John Wheeler, John Greven, Paul Hedderman, and Ramana.

About nine months ago, while reading, there was a brief experiential insight. I alternated between crying and laughing while seeing that there was only awareness and some thoughts and sensations—nobody home. It felt intense and exciting. There was a conviction that this was easy to see. About a day and a half later, I woke up with the sense that I had lost it. Shortly afterwards, I took a long break because I was starting a new job.

Now I am back to reading and occasionally looking at my direct experience. Noticing awareness seems easier now that I recognise it is simply ordinary awareness. However, even though I understand conceptually that awareness does not come and go, it certainly feels as though it does, and the identification with a "me" is in full force. Looking for the "I" only seems somewhat fruitful when the presence of awareness has been receiving some appreciation, but even then the investigation often fells very evasive.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

9

[ashton]

Hi Stephi, My name is Ashton and I'll be your guide.
I think we'll have a good time.
You can call me Ash or Ashton. Whatever works. Lmk what you want me to call you.

Anyways, the way this is going to work is I am going to put things that you say in quotes by copying a sentence or paragraph of yours that strikes me by placing that copied text inside of the quote function up above this textbox. It'll appear as [ quote ] (copied text here) [ /quote ] except there won't be spaces. You'll do the same when answering my questions. Simple enough, right?!

When I ask you these questions, I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought (reasoning). Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

To clarify, you CAN tell me "Ash, thought is/was coming up and it was saying xyz thing". But that is drastically different than forming your answer FROM thought. See how that example is different? That statement would have been formed through experience being seen directly and/or memory.

What you said here hit me and this will be the first thing we examine:

About nine months ago, while reading, there was a brief experiential insight.

We are going to make a chain of events together.
1. Insight arose

I alternated between crying and laughing while seeing that there was only awareness and some thoughts and sensations—nobody home.

2. Crying accompanied by laughter arose
3. Noticing of awareness, thoughts, and sensations arose
4. (Simultaneously a sense of self had NOT arisen, and this was seen)

It felt intense and exciting.

5. Excitement and intensity arose

There was a conviction that this was easy to see.

6. Sense of easiness to it arose

I woke up with the sense that I had lost it.

7. Sense of having lost it arose



..

Okay.
And so it happened like that.
And so it was.

Did you say, "Hey, experience! Make it so insight arises! Then after that, make it so crying and laughter arises! Then after that, make it so thoughts, awareness, and sensations all get noticed! Then after that, make it so I can't even find a sense of self in my experience! Then after that, make it so excitement and intensity arise! Then after that... then after that... then after that... then after that..."

Did you say all of that before it all happened?
Or did it all just happen that way?
Surely you didn't have to prompt experience like that for it to unfold that way, now did you?

Look back.
Reflect.
Observe what took place in those moments.

They all just arose on their own, yeah?
Each and every one of those, yeah?
Huh.
Wild.

Take a look.
Really look at it.

"Hey, Experience! Make it so spontaneous insight arises!"

My ass.

Hahahaha.
It just happened, yeah?


And what about clarity?
May there be the case that sometimes 100% clarity is there?
And other times 50% clarity?
And other times 0% clarity?

What gives? (Rhetorical - don't answer)
And so when that clarity vanished..
Oh my!

Did you say "Hey, experience! Make this clarity vanish!"
Or did it just vanish?

Smh.

Hahaha.
Look back on it.
Reflect.
Report your findings.

Ash.

[Stephi]

Hi Ash,
Thank you for doing this. I really appreciate it. You can call me Stephi.

Did you say, "Hey, experience! Make it so insight arises! Then after that, make it so crying and laughter arises! Then after that, make it so thoughts, awareness, and sensations all get noticed! Then after that, make it so I can't even find a sense of self in my experience! Then after that, make it so excitement and intensity arise! Then after that... then after that... then after that... then after that..."

Did you say all of that before it all happened?
Or did it all just happen that way?
Surely you didn't have to prompt experience like that for it to unfold that way, now did you?

Look back.
Reflect.
Observe what took place in those moments.

They all just arose on their own, yeah?

All these things happened without any premeditation or any idea that they would happen. Later, some thoughts along the lines of “what self-inquiry question/looking preceded that insight?” and so on came up. But in my momentary experience these things simply arose.
(If it were possible to dictate experience in the way you sketched, we would all have a grandiose time, hahah.)

And what about clarity?
May there be the case that sometimes 100% clarity is there?
And other times 50% clarity?
And other times 0% clarity?

What gives? (Rhetorical - don't answer)
And so when that clarity vanished..
Oh my!

Did you say "Hey, experience! Make this clarity vanish!"
Or did it just vanish?

The clarity vanished on its own. No doubt about it.

[ashton]

Hi Stephi,

All these things happened without any premeditation or any idea that they would happen. Later, some thoughts along the lines of “what self-inquiry question/looking preceded that insight?” and so on came up.

And what about those thoughts that arose of "what self inquiry question / looking preceeded that insight?"

Did those thoughts also arise on their own as well?
Did those thoughts enter your experience without ever having asked your permission to enter your experience?

You didn't ask those thoughts that came after to come up, now did you?

Look back on those as well.
See.
How'd it unfold?

Did even that arise on its own?

If it were possible to dictate experience in the way you sketched, we would all have a grandiose time, hahah

Hehehe 😜

The clarity vanished on its own. No doubt about it.

And so it was, yeah?

Some might say "Omg! Oh no! My clarity went away!"

It all just went away on its own, yeah?
You didn't tell it to vanish, did you?
It just vanished all on its own, yeah?

Even if physical feelings began arising of feeling bad about it arose... or mental... or even if attachment arose to it now being gone...

Did even those things just arise on their own, too?
Surely you didn't call those things into your experience, did you?

Look back at all of this.
Reflect.
See what happened.
Report your findings.

Ash

[Stephi]

Hi Ash,

And what about those thoughts that arose of "what self inquiry question / looking preceeded that insight?"

Did those thoughts also arise on their own as well?
Did those thoughts enter your experience without ever having asked your permission to enter your experience?

No permission was asked for. These thoughts also arose on their own.

Some might say "Omg! Oh no! My clarity went away!"

It all just went away on its own, yeah?
You didn't tell it to vanish, did you?
It just vanished all on its own, yeah?

Even if physical feelings began arising of feeling bad about it arose... or mental... or even if attachment arose to it now being gone...

Did even those things just arise on their own, too?
Surely you didn't call those things into your experience, did you?

The vanishing happened on its own, and the sense of despair afterward arose on its own as well.

[ashton]

Hi Stephi,

Do you have anything that to you seems like a "hangup" in your experience?

So far everything seems like it's being seen clearly.

Ash

[Stephi]

Hi Ash,

Hi Stephi,

Do you have anything that to you seems like a "hangup" in your experience?

So far everything seems like it's being seen clearly.

If I look at what my experience has been like in certain moments, I can see that experiences happen on their own and that no one is asked for permission. If I look at what my current experience is like, I can also somewhat see this. I can't tell what my next thought will be. But in my day-to-day life, this is not clear. I am generally fully identified as an "I" or self that is causing actions, suffers, and so on.

[ashton]

Good morning Stephi,

If I look at what my experience has been like in certain moments, I can see that experiences happen on their own and that no one is asked for permission.

Notice how you said that?

Now apply that to what you said here:

But in my day-to-day life, this is not clear. I am generally fully identified as an "I" or self that is causing actions, suffers, and so on.

Can you see that in your day-to-day life, sometimes lack of clarity arises? Sometimes sense of self arises? Sometimes identification arises?

Look at those as events too.

Did you say, "Hey, experience! Make it so sense of self arises! Then after that, make it so it gets felt as though there's a causer of actions! Then after that, make it so this all gets taken up as being wrong! Make it also be accompanied by a total lack of clarity!"

Did you say that?
Or do even those things arise on their own?
Did those things ask your permission to arise in your experience?
Or did even those just simply appear in your experience?

Take a look.
Watch it.
Reflect on it.
Report your findings.

Ash.

[Stephi]

Hi Ash,

Look at those as events too.

Did you say, "Hey, experience! Make it so sense of self arises! Then after that, make it so it gets felt as though there's a causer of actions! Then after that, make it so this all gets taken up as being wrong! Make it also be accompanied by a total lack of clarity!"

Did you say that?
Or do even those things arise on their own?

Again, if I look, all these things arise on their own as well. If I NOW look, it makes sense that everything (including the doubts, questions, unclarity, and so on) will always appear on its own. But 10 minutes from now there is no looking, and there will be no appreciation of the fact that everything appears on its own.

So a few thoughts come up that say, "No clarity is only not an issue if it is seen as something that arises on its own (which would be clarity); but it isn't seen most of the time, therefore there can be clarity and no clarity; no clarity needs to be resolved somehow".

Now, if you ask me whether these thoughts also simply appeared, I can look and see that. But a bit later there is no seeing again.

[ashton]

Hi Stephi,

But 10 minutes from now there is no looking, and there will be no appreciation of the fact that everything appears on its own.

And so the chain of events 10 minutes from now may be:
1. Just living / experiencing arises (without seeing that as a chain in the moment)
2. A memory to chain 1 occurs at some point that chain 1 arose
3. Lack of appreciation arises accompanied by thoughts of "But I didn't see chain 1 in the moment as chain 1 occurred"

If a chain of events happens EVEN THAT WAY TOO, can you see that Even That is also just a chain of events?

That there was no control behind even the arising of all of that?

You didn't say "Hey, experience! Make it so just living and experiencing arises without any form of clear seeing present! Then after that, make it so either 5min later, a day later, a week later, a month, a year lager, etc, make it so a memory pops up with the realization that chain 1 occurred without any sort of noticing present while it arose! Then after that, make it so feeling bad arises for having not seen it in the moment along with a lack of appreciation along with negative thoughts!"

Did you say all of that to make it so those chain of events would happen?
Or did they just arise that way on their own?

Did the lack of clear seeing arise on its own?
Look!

Did the "just living"... without any clarity... without any noticing...
Did EVEN THAT just arise on its own?
It didn't ask your permission to happen that way, did it?
It just unfolded that way on its own time, on its own accord, yeah?

Maybe there is a slight or strong desire or thought to try to maintain clear seeing throughout the day...

Did that slight or strong desire or thought also just arise on its own?
You didn't prompt experience and say "Hey, experience! Make it so that I wish/expect clarity and clear seeing to be present more often in my experience!"

And even if you did sort of prompt it... even the prompting it...

Did that too, just arise on its own?
You surely wouldn't have had to prompt experience to prompt experience of an experience? Lol. Did you?

Take a look back at all of this.
Reflect.

I'm gonna say something that may be a little bit of a slippery slope, which is why I'm also going to say that it's rhetorical and don't answer it, so don't answer it:
Is it okay? At the end of the day, isn't it okay? Even if there's no seeing 10min after? At the end of the day... if no seeing is there... isn't there just no seeing? And on some level, that's fine? Even if there arises resistance or a feeling of not fine... isn't that all there is? And so on that ground layer, sure, it isn't fine. But on some level, on some layer, you can see that That is all there truly is... and so it ends up on Some sort of layer, even if not the immediate one... it ends up being Okay, because at the end of the day, that is all there is?

I want you to look:
Even in the not seeing...
Isn't that all that there is?

Maybe the not seeing gets noticed.
Feeling bad about the fact that not seeing was your experience 5min ago arises.
Beating yourself up arises.

Maybe that is currently where you are at.
All I'm asking of you is...
At some point... maybe not in the present moment when those chains are unfolding... but just at some point...
Are you able to see those chains of events as just chains of events, that just arose on their own?

You didn't ask experience to bring into your experience that you'd beat yourself up over it.
It just arose... yeah?

Did you know that you're a human, and not a robot?
And that sometimes humans feel exactly how you feel sometimes?
And that, that just arises.. all on its own?

That us humans, we may go out and live our life 10min after participating on some random internet forum, and forget all about it and just live life and be absorbed in life?
An that, that just arises all on its own too?

So yeah...
Reflect back on those moments in particular in which you describe living life 10min after you go away from the forum.
Living life without "perfect clear seeing" or any seeing for that matter.

Is even that.. just an arising of its own?

With grace,
Ashton.

[Stephi]

Hi Ash,
I'll need a bit of time to look into this and get back to you. I hope that's okay.

Best wishes!

[ashton]

Of course :)