Ready to pull back the curtains on 'I'.

[Mogie]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this to mean what I take for granted as 'I' is actually an illusion, another thought.

What are you looking for at LU?
About 20 years ago I read 'I Am That - talks with Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj' and it resonated deeply with me. Since then I've read a lot on advaita vedanta and non-duality. It' left me with the feeling that 'something is up'. In the past few years I've done a lot of bodywork with a therapist and experienced moments of deep peace and clarity. It's like I've directly experienced the thought/sense of 'I' on physical level. The books I've read were always thought-provoking more than anything but these felt experiences were profound. I felt a sense of witnessing and non-attachment that felt like a coming home. I'm here because something powerful is compelling me to go further into that.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I've always been fiercely independent and reluctant to accept help from others but in recent years, having met an incredible bodywork therapist, I'm opening-up to the possibilities of dialogue and how speaking directly to another can reveal blind spots and facilitate seeing things as they really are. Maybe I've had a degree of arrogance that has softened and brought me to this moment.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I meditate from time to time and have a read a lot on advaita vedanta/non-duality over the past 20 years. My father was the one who first introduced me to the idea of 'no-self' when I was quite young so the idea has always been there behind everything else.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Mogie]

update...

Since posting this I’ve nearly finished reading Gateless Gatecrashers and have felt an undeniable shift.

I can’t pinpoint it to a specific moment.

It slowly became more and more apparent that there is no ‘I’ and there never was.

My own situation resonated more acutely with certain cases in the book to the point where I felt like ‘That guy sounds just like where I’m at - getting this on an intellectual level but not really feeling it.’

As others have written, the whole thing seems obvious and trivial now but at the same time I feel a sense of relief, like I’m loosening my grip on life.

As I mentioned above, I have done a lot of bodywork which has really helped bring a lovely sense of clarity to my experience - both pasts ones and this one. It feels like sensing how this ‘I’ though manifests in the body has prepared my well for this breakthrough.

But, like Ilona and Elena say so often in the book this does feel like a beginning and certainly not some transcending of all the suffering of life. What it feels like now is that there is more space, I can see the wood from the trees more.

For years meditation was something I did because it was somehow ‘good for me’. Now it feels easier. Like I’m fighting myself less.

The ‘I’ thought does come back a lot throughout the day but I feel more now like I can release it at will although I’m sure life’s challenges will put that to the real test!

[graceabounds]

Hello dear,

Thanks for your patience in waiting for a guide. It appears to have been a fruitful time :)

Yes, what we are looking at/for here is not intellectual at all. It just is. Cannot be otherwise. And I would agree that working with the body was the entry point in this case.

Is there anything missing now?
Any trace of seeking remaining?

With love,
Becca

[Mogie]

Hi Becca,

Thank you for your time.

As I write this now I feel less clear than in my last post.

When I wrote that I had experienced space and an undeniable recognising of the lack of "I", but if you asked me today how I felt I would have to say I feel like I've been pulled back into the game.

So yes there is now frustration at what I felt I had and now have sort of lost. It's like the "I" sense has doubled down and asserted itself in a big way. I even feel like it's manifesting in boredom, like it's saying 'right, done with this non-duality stuff, let's look elsewhere for something else more interesting'. I even feel resistance to typing these words now, like it's a waste of time given that what I experienced last week didn't last.

Maybe I was deluded?

[graceabounds]

I see.

Well then, let’s take a look and see what is true.

First of all what name would you like for me to call you by here? Mogie or something else?

So is ‘boredom’ like avoidance? An escape hatch?

it's a waste of time given that what I experienced last week didn't last.

Is this true?
Who owns this thought?

-Becca

[Mogie]

Thank you Becca. You can call me Liam.

That's exactly what boredom - and the things I use to distract myself from it - feels like. I was diagnosed with ADHD as an adult a few years ago but it really feels like a coping mechanism to me; a seeking distractions from pain.

In my heart I don't feel like this inquiring it's a waste of time, no.

'Who owns this thought?'

Well, if I'm to be as honest as I can right now, the owner of the thought is my sense of 'me'. It's the same sense that lights up when my wife says 'I love you' or a friend says 'I've missed you'. The same sense that took the decision to sit down and write this reply this morning or to give my dog her medication to relieve her pain. The sense of 'where the buck stops', if you like. It's a sense of responsibility that is felt.

Thanks.

[graceabounds]

Hi Liam,

Where is the sense of responsibility felt? How is it known experientially (not cognitively)?

And here are some other questions, related to expectations:

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing? :)

In gratitude,
Becca

[Mogie]

Hi Becca,

Where is the sense of responsibility felt? How is it known experientially (not cognitively)?

There is no observable location for where the sense of responsibility is felt. All I can say is that I am aware of it. It’s actually fear; the fear of the consequences of not taking responsibility.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I imagine myself loosening my ‘grip’ on life. Relaxing into each moment more.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Less chatter in the mind. More openness and less guardedness.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I’m not sure what my answer to this is. I’ve never imagined negative consequences to this.

 4. What are you hoping for?

To be less self-interested and more available to others and the world around me. To feel less separate. To see the game I’m playing for what it is. To figure the whole thing out once and for all! (I’m laughing at that last one and how childish it looks but it’s true).

5. What is missing?

Clarity. A road map. I think I’ve always been drawn to non-duality because deep down I’ve always felt experiencing life as a limited persona can’t be ‘it’.

Thank you.

[graceabounds]

Your expectations are reasonable, and of course it is impossible to not have expectations after 20 years of reading about non duality :)

It’s actually fear; the fear of the consequences of not taking responsibility

What is here that is not a thought?

Is there an observable location for fear, Liam?

[Mogie]

'It’s actually fear; the fear of the consequences of not taking responsibility'

What is here that is not a thought?

Nothing, it is a thought. From the thought comes a reaction that is more acutely felt than with other thoughts like 'that tree over there is nice' so there is an inclination to give it more weight. To identify with it. I see this yet I still sense a reluctance to REALLY see it as a thought just like any other.

Is there an observable location for fear, Liam?

When I look I can't find one. Thoughts arise, like 'What if my wife left me or my dog died?' and they are noticed. Nestled in those thoughts is the 'I' thought which registers thoughts as more or less important.

[graceabounds]

Hi Liam,

There is a formula we use here:
Thought + Sensation = Emotion

So working on the sensation side of the equation can help to ‘solve’ the equation. This is why I keep asking about what is happening in the body. For those who are highly mind identified it can take some time to unlock this. But for now when there is a strong emotion like fear, take a LOOK at what is felt in direct experience.

Meanwhile let’s work on the thought side.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

And here is a quick tutorial on how to use the quote function on the forum to respond to inquiries.

https://youtu.be/-fAToDNh9hQ?si=cG9t2N_jRMMprcIz

In gratitude,
Becca

[Mogie]

Thanks for this Becca, it’s been very interesting.

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Of course when I sat I struggled to completely ignore the thoughts that came up and frustration followed. After some time things settled a bit and I was able to stay with the questions you posed.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

From my years of reading non-duality I expected the answers to all of them to be ‘No’, ‘Nowhere’ etc. but I really looked to directly experience what they brought up in me.

I noticed a real awareness of just how much energy I seem to spend on claiming doership of thoughts. Like the feeling that ‘I chose to think that thought’ was felt on a physical level as a tensing or even clenching all around the body.

I noticed too a resistance to the simplicity of what you’re pointing to. My mind protested and said things like ‘surely there is a doer here?’ Who just chose to have toast instead of cereal for breakfast? Surely there was an agent behind that?’

I feel there’s a lot here so I will sit with it more today. As I said earlier my mind has a tendency to seek distraction so I’m going to deliberately make more time and space for this.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

No, there is no organised sequence to thoughts.

Thank you for the tutorial link and your generosity.

[graceabounds]

Great, Liam,

For some, this line of inquiry is the entire game… am I in any way responsible for all of these thoughts?

As you sit with this more today, pay special attention to when the clenching appears and if it has a center point.

Much love,
Becca

[Mogie]

Hi Becca,

I just want to say firstly that it's feeling very helpful to have a guide in all of this. My mind wants to jump around and read another book or watch another video but having clear instructions and 'accountability' has been something I think I've needed.

So there's a lot coming up for me when I sit. I'm sitting with the question about whether I have any control over thoughts and it's clear to me I don't. But I'm noticing a felt response to this. A resistance.
You know how a child might tense up and hold its breath when it doesn't get its way until it turns blue? Well what I experience feels like a very mild version of that.

You asked me to notice when this happens and honestly it just feels like it's always there. Just this low energy sort of stubbornness that I feel around my eyes and at the back of my head. Even down into my neck. The intensity of it varies. Like first thing in the morning as I sit to meditate I can be very aware of it but soon the act of noticing it seems to soften it and create some space.

I would ever go so far as to say this sensation has intensified since I started this process. In my second post where I felt like I'd had a breakthrough it was noticeably softer but it was almost like it came back with a vengeance soon after!

Thank you,
Liam

[graceabounds]

Great, Liam.

Now this sensation. What happens if you read and say to yourself several times “there is no separate self at all, never has been, never will be”. What is noticed in the area around the eyes and at the back of the head, if anything?

Also (and this would certainly happen outside of thought) the next time you notice the stubbornness is present, please take a LOOK behind the sensation at what it is protecting. What do you find?

Sitting in a room, curtains closed, you wonder what the weather is like outside. You can think about it, look it up on the internet, watch the forecast on TV, call your mother and ask her - or you can simply open the curtains and have a look.

:)

Becca