It's not too late

[Kassis]

Okay, you can:

1. Ghost this thread & leave without a word.

2. Post that you don't wish to continue
3. Change guides (we will all instruct you to LOOK)
4. Pick up where you left & continue with me.

Thank you Stacy for your time and effort, I didn't ghost you, I had nothing to report. But I think this exchange has become a little testy, so: I don't wish to continue.
Best Ingrid

[Anastacia42]

As you wish.

[Kassis]

As you wish.

no worries! it's just a thought.

[Anastacia42]

I know.

I would recommend www.thework.com for dealing with thoughts.

[Kassis]

I know.

did I catch you being a little reactive ?Don't answer that, we dont want to LOOK into that bin, right?

[ashton]

Hi Kassis, I'll just start from the top as if all I had seen was your initial post of:

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I think it means that everything about me is dependent on other things. My memories of my own life change over time, everything about me changes too, my likes and dislikes, my opinions, my body, my understanding, the way I relate to others, it all changes depending on what's happening around me.

What are you looking for at LU?
A community of people who , like me, question the separate self, and, hopefully some pointers to untangle this gordian knot of thoughts that I have been artfully tying together all of my life. And, since the intro says: "no enlightenment" OK, no big bang, but maybe a little candlelight?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Hoping to get some good advice and the company of other humans who want to know what this whole joyful and/or miserable mess all around us is really all about. Some digital handholding, and the opportunity to be honest, human, and alive with no agenda.
What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? Starting as a Lutheran in a catholic country and finding all answers I was soliciting unsatisfactory I moved on to years of Zen - with the same result, and now I'm a student of Hareesh Wallis, the first tradition I encountered that states clearly that awakening is an actual possibility. I'm old, I dont's have much time to waste . Happy to have found you.

Here's what I normally copy and paste haha:

Hi Kassis. My name is Ashton and I'll be your guide.
I think we'll have a fun time.
You can call me Ash or Ashton. Whatever works. Lmk what you want me to call you.

Anyways, the way this is going to work is I am going to put things that you say in quotes by copying a sentence or paragraph of yours that strikes me by placing that copied text inside of the quote function up above this textbox. It'll appear as [ quote ] (copied text here) [ /quote ] except there won't be spaces. You'll do the same when answering my questions. Simple enough, right?!

When I ask you these questions, I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought. Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

To clarify, you CAN tell me "Ash, thought is/was coming up and it was saying xyz thing". But that is drastically different than forming your answer FROM thought. See how that example is different? That statement would have been formed through experience being seen directly and/or memory.

What you said here hit me and this will be the first thing we examine:

everything about me changes too, my likes and dislikes

Interesting.

I want you to bring up via memory...

Is it the case that sometimes you are in your car (if you still drive) and the chain of experience goes:
1. Driving is happening
2. Hunger arises
3. Thought arises of "hmm what do I want to eat"
4. Waiting for thought to arise that meshes with what 'the body' could go for
5. Thought arises "I want chinese"
6. Agreeability occurs

And other times it may go:
1. Driving is happening
2. Hunger arises
3. Thought arises of "hmm what do I want to eat"
4. Waiting for thought to arise that meshes with what 'the body' could go for
5. Thought arises "chinese?"
6. Disagreeability occurs accompanied by thought of "noo"
7. Waiting arises for other ethnic options to present themselves
8. Thought arises "chicken wings!" accompanied by aroused bodily sensations + agreeability

I'm sure both have happened.
Can you see that both are just chains of events?

Look back at those moments.

In either of those moments, did you say "Hey, experience! Make there arise feelings of hunger! Then after that, make it so pondering of what I should eat shall occur! Then after that, pop up a thought of what I should eat! Then after that, make it so disagreeability arises! Then after that, make it so waiting occurs for a new idea to pop up! Then after that, have this idea of chicken wings pop up! Then after that, make it so the body loves that idea and agrees with it!"

Did you do that?
Or did it all just happen like that, on its own?
Actually reflect back to scenarios of that. Or whenever hunger may have arisen, really.

Does it just arise on its own? Without ever asking for your permission or consent?

And the food that gets chosen...
Sure...
It's a choice...

But did the choice just present itself, all on its own?
And the choice that got made... did that too just happen on its own?

And even if while the choice and making of the decision occurred, maybe it was accompanied by sensations of "it feels so 'me' when the decision is being made" or "it feels like I'm personally making that decision"

Okay.
So it is.
Did that feeling just arise on its own, too?
The feeling of personalness?

Look back.
Reflect.
Maybe watch it happen when it happens.

And when you do, is even the watching it arising on its own?
Sometimes watching may not occur.
Maybe thoughts arise of "ugh! I keep forgetting!"
Maybe that thought gets bought into.

If that was the chain, so it was.
It arose.
Can you see that, too?

That there isn't even control over when watching arises?

Ash.

[Kassis]

HI Ash,

I'm sure both have happened.
Can you see that both are just chains of events?

Look back at those moments.

In either of those moments, did you say "Hey, experience! Make there arise feelings of hunger!

the two chains of events you posted seem pretty much identical to me, did I miss some important difference? Either way: Yes, I see that these are series of thoughts, on leading to the next, and I dont really have much choice about which one arises, I'm sure they are all conditioned by previous events and circumstances, I won't come up with a story line in a language I don't speak, wait, I guess I should say " "there won't be a story line in a language I don't speak" But I also know that even my memories are very unreliable, so an interpretation can come up today, and in a different version next week.

I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought. Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

Im not really clear on the difference here: so: I experience confusion ! Ha! When you say "from thought" do you mean "interpretation"? And "via memory" isn't that the only way I could possibly talk about something that happened yesterday?

is even the watching it arising on its own?

yes, it is prompted by , in this case, your question, but how or what I answer isn't really a decision I make. This really boggles my mind, because it makes total sense, and my experience supports it, but somehow the implications seem enormous, and I can practically hear the gears grinding

That there isn't even control over when watching arises?

there isn't control, and this fear is arising together with this whole inquiry and endless argument about free will, and who the hell am I if I can't even make a decision?

[ashton]

Hi Kassis,

Also I want to let you know, I encourage the people I guide to read my reply and then take a day or several days to look and reflect in your experience the things I am pointing towards. Don't feel pressured to have to read what I write and come up with stuff right away.

Let the things I'm saying marinate a little bit. Maybe come back to my post a couple times if you feel compelled and then keep looking at what I'm pointing at in regular life, and see for yourself if what I'm pointing towards is found to be true or false or a hangup in your experience.

the two chains of events you posted seem pretty much identical to me, did I miss some important difference?

Yes! Lol.
Here it is again, reread it:

Is it the case that sometimes you are in your car (if you still drive) and the chain of experience goes:
1. Driving is happening
2. Hunger arises
3. Thought arises of "hmm what do I want to eat"
4. Waiting for thought to arise that meshes with what 'the body' could go for
5. Thought arises "I want chinese"
6. Agreeability occurs

And other times it may go:
1. Driving is happening
2. Hunger arises
3. Thought arises of "hmm what do I want to eat"
4. Waiting for thought to arise that meshes with what 'the body' could go for
5. Thought arises "chinese?"
6. Disagreeability occurs accompanied by thought of "noo"
7. Waiting arises for other ethnic options to present themselves
8. Thought arises "chicken wings!" accompanied by aroused bodily sensations + agreeability

You said:

Either way: Yes, I see that these are series of thoughts, one leading to the next

But actually look at those 2 chains up above. Were each of those events thoughts? Or only some of them?

Some of them might be bodily sensations.
Or maybe general inclinations without necessarily being a thought.
Or even the waiting for a thought to pop up of what you want to eat...
Just a waiting, yeah?

Look back on that chain.

But I also know that even my memories are very unreliable, so an interpretation can come up today, and in a different version next week.

Hah! Interesting!

So I could ask for you to recall event A right now...
And a memory of event A might arise.

And then a week later ask you to recall event A again...
And the memory that pops up may still be event A, but the memory itself would be a little bit different than the one that popped up from a week ago, yeah?

You can clearly see that there is no control over the accuracy of the memory, the recalling ability!

You described experience perfectly right there.

Maybe sometimes it may happen where I ask you to recall event B right now, and again a week later. And maybe it happens where both recollections result in the same exact memory.

And so it is!
Can you see that in either scenario, no matter if the recollections across a week in time result in the same or different recollection of the same event...

That there was/is no control over which scenario presents itself?

That whichever scenario happens, it just happens...
All on its own?

You didn't say, did you: "Hey, experience! Right now I want you to recall event A, but only partially!"
And then a week later say: "Hey, experience! I want you to recall event A differently than what was recalled a week ago!"

Did you have to prompt experience to unfold that way?
Or did it just unfold that way on its own?
Without ever asking for your consent or permission to unfold that way?

I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought. Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

Im not really clear on the difference here: so: I experience confusion ! Ha! When you say "from thought" do you mean "interpretation"? And "via memory" isn't that the only way I could possibly talk about something that happened yesterday?

Let's switch out to "reasoning"

Don't tell me your answer from reasoning.

Example of answer that I don't want: "I think it happens this way because of xyz that happened in the past"

Can you see that That is reasoning? I don't want that.

Example of answers that I prefer:
"Xyz happened... ABC event happened after that... then thought arose that ABC event happened due to xyz"

See how that clearly describes experience as it happened?
It even describes the fact that the thought happened.
I like stuff like that!

is even the watching it arising on its own?

yes, it is prompted by , in this case, your question

Can you see what your reply was, here?
Was it a thought?
And did it get bought up?

(I'm not at all saying that experience should be thoughtless!)

But yes.
I asked if "watching it" also arose on its own
It got read
And then watching arose
And then agreeability arose
And then thought arose of "abc happened because of xyz"
And then that thought got bought into

All a chain of events.
The reading it arose on its own.
The watching arose on its own.
The agreeability arose on its own.
The thought of "but it happened because of x!" Arose on its own.
The buying into the thought arose on its own.

What if after all of those chains, what ended up arising was:
"Huh, all of those just arose on its own, even the thought. Even the buying into the thought. Even this noticing. Huh."

yes, it is prompted by , in this case, your question, but how or what I answer isn't really a decision I make. This really boggles my mind, because it makes total sense, and my experience supports it, but somehow the implications seem enormous, and I can practically hear the gears grinding

So a new chain of events happened:
1. Noticing that decision arose on its own occurred
2. Being boggled/puzzled arose
3. Something arose where the "implications seem enormous"
4. Gears grinding arose

And so it happened, again!
All on its own, yeah?
Wtf!

The puzzledness.... the being boggled...
That too!
Just arose all on its own, yeah?

The implications seeming enormous.
That too!
Also just arose on its own yeah? That feeling

The gears grinding! Ugh! Omg!
Also just arising on its own yeah?

You didn't have to call any of those things into experience, did you?
They all just began happening on their own, yeah?

Wow!
"How far does this rabbit hole go down, ash!"
:))

there isn't control, and this fear is arising together with this whole inquiry and endless argument about free will

What????!!!!
Fear arising?!?!

Omg!

Did that, too, just begin arising all on its own?
Surely you didn't ask or tell experience to bring you fear, now did you?

Huh.


Look back on all of this.
Reflect.
Let it all marinate.
Maybe more fear will come.
Maybe angst.
Maybe anxiety.
Maybe uncomfortableness .
Maybe stress.
Maybe acceptance.

I have no idea what will come up.
But whatever does come up...
It'll have just....
Arisen on its own, too, yeah?

Ash.

[Kassis]

You can clearly see that there is no control over the accuracy of the memory, the recalling ability!

Yes, I see that pretty clearly.

Can you see that in either scenario, no matter if the recollections across a week in time result in the same or different recollection of the same event...

Yes, I see that

That there was/is no control over which scenario presents itself?

That whichever scenario happens, it just happens...
All on its own?

yes, its a relief and also effing irritating!

You didn't say, did you: "Hey, experience! Right now I want you to recall event A, but only partially!"
And then a week later say: "Hey, experience! I want you to recall event A differently than what was recalled a week ago!"

Did you have to prompt experience to unfold that way?
Or did it just unfold that way on its own?

I've tried before. It does not work.



Without ever asking for your consent or permission to unfold that way?
I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought. Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.
Im not really clear on the difference here: so: I experience confusion ! Ha! When you say "from thought" do you mean "interpretation"? And "via memory" isn't that the only way I could possibly talk about something that happened yesterday?
Let's switch out to "reasoning"

Don't tell me your answer from reasoning.

yes, that makes sense to me, I mean , to use the word "reasoning, if by that you mean the constant word games that are going on...

Example of answer that I don't want: "I think it happens this way because of xyz that happened in the past"

Can you see that That is reasoning? I don't want that.

Example of answers that I prefer:
"Xyz happened... ABC event happened after that... then thought arose that ABC event happened due to xyz"

See how that clearly describes experience as it happened?

HM, yes, I see the first one is reasoning, are you saying: the first one presents the chain of events as facts and the second version does not present the events as facts, just as my thoughts? I kind of get it, but it sounds a bit like adding "in my opinion" after saying something offensive to someone, just to take the edge off.

It even describes the fact that the thought happened.
I like stuff like that!
is even the watching it arising on its own?
yes, it is prompted by , in this case, your question
Can you see what your reply was, here?
Was it a thought?
And did it get bought up?

it was a thought

(I'm not at all saying that experience should be thoughtless!)

But yes.
I asked if "watching it" also arose on its own
It got read
And then watching arose
And then agreeability arose
And then thought arose of "abc happened because of xyz"
And then that thought got bought into

All a chain of events.
The reading it arose on its own.
The watching arose on its own.
The agreeability arose on its own.
The thought of "but it happened because of x!" Arose on its own.
The buying into the thought arose on its own.

agreed

What if after all of those chains, what ended up arising was:
"Huh, all of those just arose on its own, even the thought. Even the buying into the thought. Even this noticing. Huh."
yes, it is prompted by , in this case, your question, but how or what I answer isn't really a decision I make. This really boggles my mind, because it makes total sense, and my experience supports it, but somehow the implications seem enormous, and I can practically hear the gears grinding
So a new chain of events happened:
1. Noticing that decision arose on its own occurred
2. Being boggled/puzzled arose
3. Something arose where the "implications seem enormous"
4. Gears grinding arose

And so it happened, again!
All on its own, yeah?
Wtf!

The puzzledness.... the being boggled...
That too!
Just arose all on its own, yeah?

The implications seeming enormous.
That too!
Also just arose on its own yeah? That feeling

The gears grinding! Ugh! Omg!
Also just arising on its own yeah?

You didn't have to call any of those things into experience, did you?
They all just began happening on their own, yeah?

yes all arising on its own.

Wow!
"How far does this rabbit hole go down, ash!"
:))

turtles all the way down. Sorry, rabbits...

there isn't control, and this fear is arising together with this whole inquiry and endless argument about free will
What????!!!!
Fear arising?!?!

Omg!

Did that, too, just begin arising all on its own?
Surely you didn't ask or tell experience to bring you fear, now did you?

definitely not! but here it is!

Look back on all of this.
Reflect.
Let it all marinate.
Maybe more fear will come.
Maybe angst.
Maybe anxiety.
Maybe uncomfortableness .
Maybe stress.
Maybe acceptance.

I have no idea what will come up.
But whatever does come up...
It'll have just....
Arisen on its own, too, yeah?

yes.

Ash.

[ashton]

Good evening Kassis,

You can clearly see that there is no control over the accuracy of the memory, the recalling ability!

Yes, I see that pretty clearly.

Good noticing :)

That there was/is no control over which scenario presents itself?

That whichever scenario happens, it just happens...
All on its own?

yes, its a relief and also effing irritating!

Haha.
And so it arose that way.

1. Reading took place
2. Reflecting occurred
3. It got seen + agreeability arose
4. Relief + irritation as a conclusion arose

And so it happened that way!
Even still...
Even in that chain right there...
You didn't call for relief or irritation over the fact of the matter to arise... did you?

It all just unfolded that way, yeah?
That whole clear seeing...
That whole recognizing...
That whole reaction towards that recognition...

Even all of that...
It all just unfolded that way, yeah?

Beautiful stuff here, Ingrid ;)

You didn't say, did you: "Hey, experience! Right now I want you to recall event A, but only partially!"
And then a week later say: "Hey, experience! I want you to recall event A differently than what was recalled a week ago!"
Did you have to prompt experience to unfold that way?
Or did it just unfold that way on its own?

I've tried before. It does not work.

But even deeper than that...
Even deeper than the fact that you've tried to prompt experience and it didn't listen...

Heck, we can even look at that as a chain of events, the time when you tried.
1. Desire to prompt experience arose
2. Prompting experience to try and tell it to conform arose
3. Waiting to see if it'd manifest arose
4. Noticing that experience wasn't conforming arose

Even in that situation too...
You didn't prompt a single event in that chain to unfold that way either, did you?

Sure, you prompted chain 2.
But did you prompt chain 1, 3, or 4 in that scenario to take place?
Look back on it.
Reflect on it.

All of those chains just happened on their own, exactly as they did, yeah?

How much control really is there...? (rhetorical- don't answer)
Just trying to get you to see first hand how, when we really begin to break down all of these chains... where is the control, Ingrid?
Was it ever there to begin with, when we really begin breaking it down like this?

We'll keep going. It's endless.

"I think it happens this way because of xyz that happened in the past"

That is all reasoning. Thought content. Hearsay. If we look at only this quote, we can't assume that the person that said it knows that this was thought content. Just that they bought into the thought content.

"xyz occurred. Abc occurred after that. Thought arose that maybe abc happened because of xyz"

Perfectly clear and concise description of how experience unfolded. It still mentions that thought content took place. But see how it is more of an outside perspective?

there isn't control, and this fear is arising together with this whole inquiry and endless argument about free will
What????!!!!
Fear arising?!?!

Omg!

Did that, too, just begin arising all on its own?
Surely you didn't ask or tell experience to bring you fear, now did you?

definitely not! but here it is!

Yikes!
And so when that fear arose...
What followed it?

A wanting it to go away?
A conglomeration of thoughts on how you could try and get it to go away?
Indifference?
Sadness?
Pain?
Helplessness?
Misery?
Something else?

The only correct answer is that which happened.
Whatever answer you provide...
Can you see that That too, just arose on its own as well?

Maybe there will arise the story... thought content...
Of "well pain arose after it because of the fear"
But even if a thought content like/similar to that arose...
Did even that just arise on its own, Too?

Look back.
Reflect.
Let it marinate.
We aren't in a time rush.
Just see exactly each chain that happened.
And see for yourself...
Did each of those chains just arise, all on their own?
Without ever asking for your consent.

Even those pesky thoughts that may come up saying that "x led to y which led to z"
Okay!
But that thought too!
You didn't tell that to arise either, now did you?

Ash.

[Kassis]

HI Ash !

Yikes!
And so when that fear arose...
What followed it?

after the fear: the wish to avoid it! a physical feeling of contracting, then this thought: go do something totally different, anything, a video, clean that kitchen counter. Not this!

Whatever answer you provide...
Can you see that That too, just arose on its own as well?

yes, I see that

But even if a thought content like/similar to that arose...
Did even that just arise on its own, Too?

yes it did.

Did each of those chains just arise, all on their own?
Without ever asking for your consent.

yes, and I'm actually crying, damn it!

Even those pesky thoughts that may come up saying that "x led to y which led to z"
Okay!
But that thought too!
You didn't tell that to arise either, now did you?

apparently Im not doing anything.

[ashton]

Morning Ingrid!

Did each of those chains just arise, all on their own?
Without ever asking for your consent.

yes, and I'm actually crying, damn it!

😊

Well Kassis, I think it's time. To me it seems like a shift has occurred in your experience. Just a guess.

I'm gonna ask you a series of questions if you're up for it. We'll see if there's anywhere you or I think could use some further investigation afterwards. Here it goes:

Be relaxed. Don't answer from thought. Describe experience..

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Ash 🙃