Wanting to wakeup feels like its what's stopping awakening

[mayafreedom]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I feel like I *know* in my "heart" that there is no individual anything. That all things in the whole universe *are* the fabric of the universe, that we can't be anything else, any separate stuff. It makes no sense to me for anything to be a separate, real, individual self. Examining the aggregates, including thought, I can't find any self-thing.

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel so close in a certain way, like things are changing rapidly, and I feel this urgency and this pressure for the "penny to drop." There is this really strong wanting. I hope that a guide can help that break through from "wanting" to just "being" it. I'm already working with 2 different guides, I read a lot of books and YouTube videos. I know I probably have to give all that up to work with a guide here (or at least it seems that way from the book) and that's fine. I'm really at "I'll do anything (short of anything immoral).

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I've been reading The Gateless Gatecrashers, and that kind of conversation just seems so helpful for where I'm at. I want help really inquiring with honesty. I feel like I can give honest answers, but then there's still something stuck. I hope that a guide would be able to see where I'm stuck and ask another poignant question to help me break through.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
tl;dr daily practice in Theravada, with intensity for the past 7 years since spontaneous heart-opening.

My earliest memory is seeing myself in footed pajamas with the glow of the TV behind my body--I was outside my body, probably no more than 3 years old. Another powerful memory at 7 years old I asked my dad something about "nothingness" and he asked me something like "how can the universe be out of no-thing" and I had this really powerful brain-stop moment where I just couldn't comprehend it but could feel the paradox of it, like my brain broke. I guess it was my first accidental koan!

I grew up in TM (learned at age 4, stopped by 14 or so) and did a lot of spiritual dabbling in my teens (various books and gurus). Then I became completely atheist when going to college (science being its own religion), but my interest in the neuroscience of consciousness, ha! I gave up all apparent spiritual seeking and went through various depressive episodes with a lot of anxiety and rumination in my 20s, soothing them with all the sensory pleasures and dissociations. That didn't work, and I came to understand that addiction/pleasure did not sooth this pain. I went through a gradual and spontaneous practice of getting rid of things--people, objects, substances, and becoming more embodied. I had tremendous physical pain at the time with a chronic illness, too, but shifted my attitude of escapism somehow...I had read Tara Brach's Radical Acceptance and also Kristin Neff's Self-Compassion and I think those both seeped in.

Then 7 years ago at age 33, I "randomly" picked up a Thích Nhất Hạnh book that was on my husband's shelf and started reading it. TNH was discussing "inter-being." Suddenly, out of nowhere, my heart burst open with joy and tears streamed down my face, and the feeling was "I'm not alone." This joy and love was everything I had ever wanted, and here it just was. I had my husband read the passage and nothing happened and I was perplexed, lol, why couldn't he feel it? I became completely obsessed with figuring out how to "get more" of that feeling. I learned Buddhist meditation through lay groups and read probably no fewer than 50 books in 6 months. I went on retreats and meditated, with lots of processing and light happening right away.

Then I found "my" teachers--Theravada nuns--in earl 2020. I've been practicing very diligently with them since, improving my sila/morality, learning the Buddha's teachings, and doing retreats 2-4x/year + trips to monasteries. It all feels very, very good. I love the practice and my teachers. I also listen to a ton of talks on youtube. I've had a lot of visions/experiences/insights in this time, including insights into the nature of craving, the body, letting go, how to practice...

Then, 3 months ago I had this intense dream where my teacher was pointing to all the things, my feelings, my thoughts, and saying "That's not it! That's not it!" I explained this dream to a dhamma friend and she told me about Angelo Dilullo and non-duality. That seems to be a big shifting point. I've been practicing more and more with turning back around to find the self, feel the space between thoughts, etc. It's really powerful. I feel more and more clear about what "I'm not." but yet there still seems to be a "what I am."

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

You're right

Here is something Vince Shubert wrote about that:

The main impediment, as it shows up here, is the felt need to make something happen.

More specifically:
the seeker-pattern that keeps trying to reproduce, control, or get back to peace.

It shows up as:
wanting to know how the quiet happened
wanting to be able to do it again at will
turning calm into a result to be achieved
turning “letting go,” “surrender,” and “do nothing” into things a someone must do
looking for the right method, video, understanding, or inner move that will finally make awakening land

So if I isolate it as cleanly as possible:

Main impediment is the belief that awakening is something a “me” can produce, control, or attain in the future.

Underneath that, there’s a second layer feeding it:

The emotional flavour is the habitual orientation toward fixing discomfort and improving experience — the half-glass-empty reflex that interprets life as something that should be made different.

That is why even good pointers get turned into suffering:

“do nothing” becomes “how do I do do-nothing?”
“let go” becomes “I need to let go better”
“surrender” becomes “I must perform surrender”
a glimpse of peace becomes “how do I make that happen again?”

So the core obstacle is not lack of insight. It is not lack of practice. It is not lack of sincerity.

It is the selfing movement that immediately claims experience and tries to use it to get somewhere else.

Wanting peace is disturbing peace.
Wanting awakening is reinforcing the seeker.

The main impediment to “waking up” is the attempt to wake up.

What seems to most obstruct waking up is the deeply conditioned assumption that “I” can make it happen. You keep trying to reproduce peace, control insight, or perform surrender, and in doing so quietly reinforces the very self it longs to be free of. So the impediment is not lack of understanding, but the reflex to use every glimpse, practice, or pointer as a way to get somewhere else. In that sense, the obstacle is the effort itself — the movement of becoming, fixing, and attaining.

What if the one trying to wake up is the one being seen through?
What if the effort to arrive is what creates the sense of distance?
What if nothing is missing except the idea that something is missing?

much love

vince


I'll post my usual introduction in another reply below

Loving

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

heart burst open with joy and tears streamed down my face, and the feeling was "I'm not alone." This joy and love was everything

Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

I offer more practice than conversation. Conversation is just thinking


4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[mayafreedom]

Hi Stacy 😊 👋🏻

Thanks for your time and willingness to guide me! I'm stoked.

I can commit to no books or teachings, and I immediately realized that I have a crutch using them. I try not to be on the Internet and have replaced that with YouTube talks and books. I even use a Kindle in the middle of the night when I can't sleep. And I thought OMG what am I going to do without those? So haha spiritual teachings have definitely become to some degree a dissociation or self-soothing mechanism. That's ironic.

How will life change?

I imagine day-to-day life will not be that different, but I may have more clarity to make decisions. I might decide to do things or spend my time in ways that are more aligned with the truth or dhamma.

How will you change?

My hope is that I would spend much more time just in presence and relaxation and calm and peace rather than in thought and rumination and unnecessary emotion. I don't mind big emotion in general and have enjoyed deep process. I can imagine more of that happening with more spaciousness. I imagine feeling relieved somehow. Like I can let go and breathe.

What will be different?

From everything I hear about Awakening it sounds like what is different is a perspective shift that I can't really know until it's happening. I imagine that I would have more of a whole existence lens rather than a me focused lens, but I don't totally know what that would feel like except the small glimpses that I've gotten which felt really easeful.

What is missing?

From what? My life? I don't know. Maybe just some sense of assuredness or settledness. Like it's ok. Or from why I'm not awakened? I don't know. It seems I only need to lose/let go, not attain/gain, but what's missing is maybe just the knowing how.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?
"Maya" // US Pacific Time

~ with gratitude 🙏🏻~

[Anastacia42]

Hi Maya,

All good. Your expectations are pretty reasonable..

a perspective shift that I can't really know until it's happening

Yes. That is what we're going for here. First some basics.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving,

[mayafreedom]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

What comes up first is that I'm intellectually 100% onboard with anatta / self as illusion, as social construct, as idea/thought, and not a solid/real thing. Like yes there's a body here, a name, the arising of feelings, the arising of thoughts, sensory perceptions...we put those together and call it "me" or "you." Yet it can't be. The contemplation of what can you take out that's "you" does it for me--I'm clearly not the fingernails or liver or eyeballs. Just like a tree is not the leaves or bark it loses. Yet we still call it a tree, or call it "Maya" (that's not my real name btw so it does something funny and dysphoric to say that). Other anatta contemplations all point back to the same conclusion: yeah, nothing here.

When the mind quiets enough in meditation or sometimes walking or driving or in my work or during deeper emotional processing, then there is spaciousness in experience and it's easy to see the thoughts and emotions arising and passing away seemingly out of and back into "nothing." There's no *thing* I can find called self / me. Even in vivid visions (in deep meditation) or in lucid dreaming, who is making the vision???? So weird, the perception is there, the experience is here, but can't find anyone who is making it.

If anything, at those times I feel like I am the watcher / perceiver / witness. Like I'm over here, somewhere in the back of the head, watching the movie. It doesn't say "I" but feels to be this position of knowing "I" am here, it's just self-evident that I'm conscious. It's not something I would question, it just is. That's maybe the most unmutable sense of self. I also hear this called the "I am sense" and that does seem distinctly different from ego/selfing, and that brings confusion in the mind.

But then day-to-day, there are all of these self-referential thoughts, like "look at me, I'm so good at meditating" or "damn I don't like how I look today” or "oh no I did the wrong thing, my teacher isn't going to approve." I get that these are *just thoughts* but the feeling that follows is real...this feeling that I'm bad or I'm good...I had written a big list of thoughts that seem the most to refer to " me" and they almost all were some kind of judgment, comparison, or should/shouldn't. I can't seem to shake that these are referring to something real ...

It gets fuzzy, it's like I can simultaneously see that they are just thoughts but I feel a believing there really is a me to protect, perfect, have a better/different experience, etc.

[mayafreedom]

Adding from my AE right now: I re-read this thread 2 or 3 times, evaluating, did I write truthfully? Was it clear? But also "am I being a good student/processor?" And I feel the compulsion to go through it all and this subtle muscle clenching and waiting for the evaluation that says "yes, good job." And then a thought "that's the selfing process, reinforcing itself, maybe don't do that so much ha". There's some tension and also some amusement in watching it all.

[Anastacia42]

Thank you. There's no need to write a book full of thoughts. Keep it simple. But that was very thorough


This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[mayafreedom]

Noted, I'll write more simply.

Yes, I am clear!

[Anastacia42]

Okay, please try this:

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[mayafreedom]

Right away experiencing that many things are compound of multiple senses. Do I write all of those? For example:

Feeling hungry, stomach gurgling = Sensation
Walking to kitchen = Sensation feet cold/pressure + sounds
Thought of what to eat = thoughts
Grabbing bread bag crinkle = sensation + sound
Sound of beep of toaster starting = sound
Drop knife startle = seeing + hearing+ sensation in stomach, sensation eyes widening
"Am I doing this right?" = Thought

[Anastacia42]

Nearly.

Description on the left.
One word for Direct Experience on the right. Yes, you may have 2 or more. Sound & Sensation for example.

Feet, cold & pressure & stomach are not DE

Fix those & reply again, please.

Loving

[mayafreedom]

This ok?:

Feeling hungry, stomach gurgling = sensation
Walking to kitchen, cold feet on bare floor = sensation + sound
Thought of what to eat = thoughts
Grabbing crinkly bread bag = sensation + sound
Beep of toaster starting = sound
Drop knife startle response/stomach drop/eyes widen = seeing + hearing + sensation
"Am I doing this right?" = thought

[mayafreedom]

oops, edited a little further ("sound" instead of "hearing")

Feeling hungry, stomach gurgling = sensation
Walking to kitchen, cold feet on bare floor = sensation + sound
Thought of what to eat = thoughts
Grabbing crinkly bread bag = sensation + sound
Beep of toaster starting = sound
Drop knife startle response/stomach drop/eyes widen = image + sound + sensation
"Am I doing this right?" = thought

[Anastacia42]

All good.

Here's the next one.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Look. There are some.

Loving