jennifermaurice

[jeffbuckley]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I guess I have limited understanding from a few perspectives. Energetically, we are all particals, or electrons - nothing is 'solid' and we are all part of the same energy. Then spiritually, consciousness or awarness goes beyond the ego (think dreams, the awarness in meditation), which is seperate to the 'self' - but still aware of it? I'm not sure.

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm interested in the ideas of Allan Watts, Michael Singer, Jesus - all the mystics who lead me to belive (and sometimes experience) a state beyond my 'self' or ego as they call it. There is so much absurdity in every day life and society at large, the only thing worth persuing and understnaidng of, or experience of is a global or universal truth - somthing beyond what we've constructed to help us get by really, find meaning. But ultimately - it's all perspective right? It changes. I'm a truth seeker and curious explorer - I'm not looking for escapism, just an understnaind of who, what, where, why - how it all works. If that's at all possible?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm not sure. Maybe somethign like The Course in Miracles - which I sampled. Maybe that feeling when you leave your mind - your thought stops? I have felt that once or twice when my mind couldn't compute what was in front of me. I've also once felt a feeling of 'playfullness' when I finished reading a Ram Dass book - I had accepted that we're all just 'playing' and idea settled in. Alas, not for very long.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
A hell of a lot of reading. I belive in The Sutras or Sant Mat where there is a way to leave body conciousness. I have had some experiences with meditation - vibrations, even starting to exit the body - but I've never given it my all in terms of a practice.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[ashton]

Hi Jeff Buckley. My name is Ashton and I'll be your guide.
I think we'll have a good time.
You can call me Ash or Ashton. Whatever works. Lmk what you want me to call you.

Anyways, the way this is going to work is I am going to put things that you say in quotes by copying a sentence or paragraph of yours that strikes me by placing that copied text inside of the quote function up above this textbox. It'll appear as [ quote ] (copied text here) [ /quote ] except there won't be spaces. You'll do the same when answering my questions. Simple enough, right?!

When I ask you these questions, I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought. Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

To clarify, you CAN tell me "Ash, thought is/was coming up and it was saying xyz thing". But that is drastically different than forming your answer FROM thought. See how that example is different? That statement would have been formed through experience being seen directly and/or memory.

What you said here hit me and this will be the first thing we examine:

Maybe that feeling when you leave your mind - your thought stops?

What is what you said right here?

Maybe that feeling when you leave your mind - your thought stops? I have felt that once or twice when my mind couldn't compute what was in front of me.

You said you had one or two experiences that you can recall via memory where thoughtlessness occurred. Using a verb or adjective, what was there in your experience? (Since that may be too esoteric of a question for you, what was there? Sprinting like a runner? Physical Pain? Emotional upheaval? Uncertainty? What was the focal point? Or was the focal point that there was no focal point? [Or something else, lol]) No intrinsically correct answer. Just the answer that was true at the time during that experience.

Ash

[jeffbuckley]

Hi Ash, you can call me Jenny. Thank you for offering to be my guide. I really appreciate your work.
I'm hoping this is what you mean by using quotes:

Your question was:

Using a verb or adjective, what was there in your experience?

And my answer from memory:

I remember it felt like void or emptiness in my mind (read:head). It also felt powerful or like a lot of energy was caught within the emptiness. Perhaps that energy was my thoughts trying to find a way to make sens of what had happened? And htey couldn't find a pathway out of that moment?

[ashton]

Good morning Jenny,

You said you had one or two experiences that you can recall via memory where thoughtlessness occurred. Using a verb or adjective, what was there in your experience?

I remember it felt like void or emptiness in my mind (read:head). It also felt powerful or like a lot of energy was caught within the emptiness.

Notice how you clearly described experience as it was. As it occurred. That is what I am all about. That is exactly the type of response I always want from you. Clear, concise descriptions of any and every event/experience I will ever ask you about.

Perhaps that energy was my thoughts trying to find a way to make sens of what had happened?

Was thought even there? Or was that energy just energy?

Perhaps that energy was my thoughts trying to find a way to make sens of what had happened?

As you read what I have quoted from you right now... can you see what you wrote was/is? And how it is fundamentally different from the first quote? If you can see the difference, tell me how it is different if you can spot it.

Ash

[jeffbuckley]

Good morning Ash!

I'm not sure about the pace of this, but I will try to reply to your threads as soon as I get a quiet minute.

I am a slow-ish learner but when it clicks, it clicks - and I think it clicked so here goes:

You asked: Was thought even there? Or was that energy just energy?

No, there was no thought.

You asked: As you read what I have quoted from you right now... can you see what you wrote was/is? And how it is fundamentally different from the first quote? If you can see the difference, tell me how it is different if you can spot it.

The first answer I described the experience. The second, I described my thoughts about the experience.
I also want to add that when I realised the difference, I felt so intrigued and interested in the process. Or should I say, I'm experiencing some subtle excitement ;) I started finding the differences in my morning shower - my thoughts about things are 90% of my waking life! Shifting them is so fun but bewildering. Ok I'll go back to the process now, I jsut watned to share that :)

[ashton]

Hi Jenny,

Was thought even there? Or was that energy just energy?

No, there was no thought.

Is that always the case? Can it happen where thought comes before/during/or after energy occurs in your experience? See if it is the case.

Do you tell your experience "Hey, Experience! Make me feel a lot of energy in this emptiness!". Or did the energy just arrive on its own? Look and see.

And conversely: does anger or unpleasant sensations ever arise and you say "Hey, Experience! Swap out this shitty anger and these unpleasant sensations for bliss and joy!" And if you do have that thought, does bliss and joy come? Look. Find out. Tell me your findings. Try and see. Does your experience care? Even when you call it out and list your desires?

The first answer I described the experience. The second, I described my thoughts about the experience.

Yes, great noticing!

I also want to add that when I realised the difference, I felt so intrigued and interested in the process. Or should I say, I'm experiencing some subtle excitement ;)

So what occurred was something like this:
1. looking happened
2. difference got noticed
3. intrigue and interest arose accompanied by sensations of excitement

Something like that, yeah?
The chain of events got seen as they happened, yeah?
Then writing happened, yeah?
Maybe sense of self arose, the thought of "(I) noticed!"

But what was that, if it happened? Just another link of the chain? Did you actually do anything? Or did noticing the difference just happen on its own?

Look. Reflect back. See. It happened. Did you say "Hey, experience! Notice the difference!" Or did it just happen...?

Give me the details.

I started finding the differences in my morning shower - my thoughts about things are 90% of my waking life! Shifting them is so fun but bewildering.

Is shifting them happening on its own? Is it proceeded by a choice to shift them? What about that choice to shift them? Did that too happen on it's....

Look.
Notice.
Observe.
Report back.

Ash.

[jeffbuckley]

Hi Ash,

You asked:

Can it happen where thought comes before/during/or after energy occurs in your experience? See if it is the case.

Thought is before, not during and always after the experience.

You asked:

does anger or unpleasant sensations ever arise and you say "Hey, Experience! Swap out this shitty anger and these unpleasant sensations for bliss and joy!" And if you do have that thought, does bliss and joy come? Look. Find out. Tell me your findings. Try and see. Does your experience care? Even when you call it out and list your desires?

This morning my electric bike was stolen and I watched what was arising. Sadness and shame arose. I watched it. I didn't ask for a swap - that feels like to big of a jump for me. But I watched my sister's same experience when I told her about it. Each time I spoke of it, the same feelings returned. In fact, I don't think I can change my experience by asking - I don't think it cares. Ironically, I arose this morning and went for a walk - I had a great sense of wellbeing. Then I returned to see my bike had been stolen and experienced the sadness and shame - I don't think my experience cares.

You asked:

Is shifting them happening on its own? Is it proceeded by a choice to shift them? What about that choice to shift them? Did that too happen on it's....

It is proceeded by a choice to shift them. An awarness of my thinking, and then a shift to refocus - where am I, what am I doing - breathe, watch my hands soap my arms - I am soaping my arms. It was my will that shifted the focus to what was happening instead of the thoughts in my head and thus reduced the thoughts in my head to the a narration on what was happening.

[ashton]

Good morning Jenny!

does anger or unpleasant sensations ever arise and you say "Hey, Experience! Swap out this shitty anger and these unpleasant sensations for bliss and joy!" And if you do have that thought, does bliss and joy come? Look. Find out. Tell me your findings. Try and see. Does your experience care? Even when you call it out and list your desires?

This morning my electric bike was stolen and I watched what was arising. Sadness and shame arose. I watched it. I didn't ask for a swap - that feels like to big of a jump for me

The point isn't about asking for a swap necessarily. Maybe sometimes there's a thought of wanting a swap so to speak. I really meant it more so rhetorically, as in, of course you probably didn't ask your experience to bring you shame and sadness. Did you? Or did the shame and sadness just come? And even if a wishful thought did occur of wanting part of your experience to be different, be less edgy, be less shitty, did your experience do that? Or did it just keep unfolding according to its own will so to speak, irrespective of yours if you will?

This morning my electric bike was stolen

That is really shitty, I hope you'll end up getting it back. I'd probably feel shame and sadness too if that happened to me.

Each time I spoke of it, the same feelings returned. In fact, I don't think I can change my experience by asking - I don't think it cares. Ironically, I arose this morning and went for a walk - I had a great sense of wellbeing. Then I returned to see my bike had been stolen and experienced the sadness and shame - I don't think my experience cares.

Great noticing! Great Great stuff!

Ironically, I arose this morning and went for a walk - I had a great sense of wellbeing.

That waking up... did that happen on its own?
That going for a walk. The decision to go for a walk. The walking itself. Did that happen on its own?
That great sense of well being... did that, too, happen on its own?

Look back.
Reflect back.
Is even your reflecting back...
Is that, too...
Happening on its own?

An awarness of my thinking

What about this awareness? The awareness of your thinking.
Is that happening on its own?

watch my hands soap my arms - I am soaping my arms.

And this? The watching of your hands soap your arms?
Is even the watchfullness...
Happening on its own?

It was my will that shifted the focus to what was happening instead of the thoughts in my head

Was your will something that just arose as well?
Who's will?
Is it really your will?
Was it ever really your will?
Or is it just will?

Look.
Observe.
Take time.

Some of this might be a little frightening. Maybe unnerving. If it is...
Is that, too, arising on its own...?

Report back your findings.

Ash.

[jeffbuckley]

Or did the shame and sadness just come? And even if a wishful thought did occur of wanting part of your experience to be different, be less edgy, be less shitty, did your experience do that? Or did it just keep unfolding according to its own will so to speak, irrespective of yours if you will?

The shame and sadness just came. When I was thinking about the bike being stolen. So I would say the thought induced the feelings.

That waking up... did that happen on its own?
That going for a walk. The decision to go for a walk. The walking itself. Did that happen on its own?
That great sense of well being... did that, too, happen on its own?

The waking up happned on it's own.
The going for a walk - I thought I made that happen. I decided (or my thought) decided it was a good idea and I went.
The feeling of wellbeing happened on it's own. I noticed it and I was expeirncing it thorughout the morning.

the awarness, the watching my hands soap my arms, the will shifting my perspecitve - is it happening on it's own?

My head is breaking! I thought I was doing it, catching myself in thought, or being 'aware' I was thinking and then breaking it to breathe and focus on what was happening in that moment, without thought.

But now I'm confused, did it happen on it's own? Who is the 'I'? Is it me? What is the 'me' if the 'me' was doing the thinking?

You're right. This is fun!

[ashton]

Good morning Jenny, you are doing spectacular

The shame and sadness just came. When I was thinking about the bike being stolen. So I would say the thought induced the feelings.

You noticed the shame and sadness just came.
What about the thought, the thinking about the bike being stolen?
Did that, too, happen on its own?

So I would say the thought induced the feelings.

What's that? Just additional thought content appearing?
Did that appear on its own too? The commentary.
Maybe it was preceeded by a 'wanting to figure out what is causing what'
If so, did that, too, happen on its own?

The feeling of wellbeing happened on it's own. I noticed it and I was expeirncing it thorughout the morning.

What about the noticing?
Did noticing happen on its own?

My head is breaking!

What about this...?

Who is the 'I'? Is it me? What is the 'me' if the 'me' was doing the thinking?

Is doing happening?
Or if thinking is happening, is it just thinking...
Is that all it is...?
When thinking is there...
Theres just thinking...?
Is there even a self you can point to when all experience is, is just whatever it is... "thinking" if it is "thinking" as experience..

What is the 'me' if the 'me' was doing the thinking?

Are you holding on to something that isn't always there?
And is holding on happening... on its own?

What is the 'me' if the 'me' was doing the thinking?

Does a sense of self ever arise?
And if it does arise, does that, too, arise on its own?

This is a lot.
A lot to unpack.
But it really isn't.
What is there to unpack?
It is just clear seeing.
Was there anything to even unpack, or is it really just a matter of seeing reality as it actually truly was this entire time... (rhetorical- don't answer)
And even this clear seeing...
Is that, too, just happening on its own?

What if it goes away?
Oh my!
Would you have made it go away?
Or would it have gone away on its own?
🤭🤭

Look.
Observe.
Reflect back.
Report your findings.

Ash.

[jeffbuckley]

Hi Ash,

I have been looking, reflecting, thinking.

What about the thought, the thinking about the bike being stolen?
Did that, too, happen on its own?

Yes, as a matter of fact it did. But today, I realised all the thinking I do about my 'story', is the 'me'. So if thought happened on it's own, where is the 'me'? But, that leads me to wonder...

When I think of something I need to do in the future, if there was no ‘me’ then there wouldn’t be a future? And because I plan and scheme - and then action in that moment (referring back to my plan and scheme - or simply memory - there must be a time continuum so thus a point of reference to before or after? The point (or person) that references a before and an after. So there is a 'me' or 'self'...

Maybe it was preceeded by a 'wanting to figure out what is causing what'
If so, did that, too, happen on its own?

That's what I'm trying to figure out. There seems to be a 'will' before thought that can direct thought. So that must be 'me'. It doesn't just 'happen' - I make it happen - concentration or switching on my 'self' - another example - I know I don't like talking to my sister in the morning. I've had the expernecines (they 'happened') but the learning or stored memory of discomfort ensures I think twice before I call her. I may want to naturally call her, but then something stops me - I reference my past and learnings and don't call her. There is a 'me' in that for sure right?!

What about the noticing?
Did noticing happen on its own?

Well, yes, the noticing seemed to happen on it's own. Similar to the shower - an awareness of the feeling, a break in thought and a new thought, narration arising about the feeling of wellbeing. The 'notiicing' feels less 'me' because it's not related to a past or future.

A lot of today 'happened on it's own'. And it was a more delightful way to live. I let things 'happen' or at least I think I did! Maybe I just noticed things 'happening' more - like scratching, dressing, brushing my teeth, putthign the cheese back in the fridge. A lot of it just 'happened' to be sure. But now, right now, I know I need to get a glass of water, while I'm writing, while I'm thirsty, while I'm lazy - there's a lot to unpack there than just 'happenings'. It feels like something or someone has to be in charge no?

[ashton]

Hi Jenny,

I realised all the thinking I do about my 'story', is the 'me'

It isn't another story?
To me it seems like a thought.

Reflect back.

When I think of something I need to do in the future

Then "thinking of what needs to get done in the future" is what is currently happening in the present moment.
You are still in the present moment.
Your present moment is the present moment of "thinking about what needs to get done in the future"

Can't you see that THAT is all there is?
Even if it is thinking about some sort of future...
WHERE is that 'thinking of the future' taking place?
Can you find it in the future? Or is it only found to be in the present...

LOOK.

And because I plan and scheme - and then action in that moment (referring back to my plan and scheme - or simply memory - there must be a time continuum so thus a point of reference to before or after? The point (or person) that references a before and an after. So there is a 'me' or 'self'...

Thought content. Can you see all of this as thought content? A thought that arised.

So there is a 'me' or 'self'...

Only when it is your present experience.
But I'd change it to a 'sense of self'
Yes ofcs there is a body

If you are in thought, fully absorbed in thought, can a body even be found?
Yeah sure, objectively it is there.
But if you were fully absorbed in thought AND weren't looking for the body... is it even there? Or is only thought there?

^ That is a tricky one. Because you won't actually see it in the moment when you are trying to look. But you might have a memory pop up... an Aha moment... when you realized a time when you were fully absorbed in thought. Or anything for that matter.
That is all there was. That was the full experience.

So I'll say "Look" for that one. But it is kind of a misnomer. If you are looking for body, of course you'll find body. Or looking for body. Hah. But you know what you won't find? Anything that ISN'T body or looking for body...

Try it.
Because that is what will happen.
Look for anything. Look for pain. Look for pleasure.
Idc what it is you look for.
You'll pretty much find it, find the absence of it as well as disappointment typically, or find the looking itself.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. There seems to be a 'will' before thought that can direct thought.

But that Will you speak of. No matter how it *feeeels*... no matter if it *feeeels* "more real" or "more you", whatever that means... then that is what arose, yeah?

It means that
1. Will arose
2. Accompanied by sensations that you might describe as feeling "soooo real", "soooo you"
3. Thoughts that THAT will is you

But that is what arose.
Those were 3 chains.

What if your 3 chains of experience were:
1. You saw pink elephants
2. You laughed
3. And said "that is so stupid"

Both are 3 chains
Both don't contain anything inherent

They are just three, God damned chains, LOL.

What if

1. Will arose
2. Accompanied by sensations that you might describe as feeling "soooo real", "soooo you"
3. Thoughts that THAT will is you

Arose.
And the 4th chain that arose was:

"Ahhh, this is the chain of experience that came to be..."

Well, yes, the noticing seemed to happen on it's own. Similar to the shower - an awareness of the feeling, a break in thought and a new thought, narration arising about the feeling of wellbeing. The 'notiicing' feels less 'me' because it's not related to a past or future.

Interesting. So some things feel "less you" and other things feel "more you".
Both are just feelings that arise... yeah?
Ahh. This feels more me (as a sensation)
Ahh. This feels less me. (As a sensation)

Cool.
Then that is what happened.
That's what arose.
That is all there was.
Who said it'd be any different?
If thats what arose, that's what arose.
You are actually very detailed in your findings.
But can you see that, no matter what you find, they are just happenings...
The only inherent truth they contain is the simple fact that THEY HAPPENED. It happened. That is the truth. That is it. It happened. It felt a certain way. It had a certain flavor. It got taken up a certain way. It got perceived as leading to something else. Whatever it is. It just happened. And that is all that can be said.

It feels like something or someone has to be in charge no?

If that is how it feels, then that is how it feels...
Just a feeling...

Ash