What am i?

[Noro]

Hi Idk,

To whom or to what does this thought belong to?

Thoughts don’t belong to anyone. They simply appear and disappear.

Yes

Who or what is aware of those experiences? Is there anything, any "thing" that can be found as a separate 'entity' or personal
"I" that is aware?

Thoughts don’t belong to anyone. They simply appear and disappear.

You did not answer this question from your direct experience. There was no mention of thoughts here, and you just repeated your previous answer. I would like you to LOOK again.

What remains when there is no separate "you" to be found that is aware of thoughts, or body, or other appearances other than a thought "I"? Please BE WITH this question, don't answer it with your mind. What remains?

Is there some tension in the body or face as you look? It is important to look at this.

I noticed a sensation in my chest that seems to extend into my stomach, and there is also some tension in my face that is a little harder to clearly identify. This is what I have noticed so far.

Very good, please keep looking into body sensations including the face. Also no need to clearly identify, just FEEL. Identifying is mental overlay, interpretation by the mind. Fine for analysis, but not for investigating what is actually happening.

First thoughts that came to mind:
I haven't reached what I was hoping for, which was disidentification and this makes me feel uncomfortable.

When I reach disidentification that will mean "I" will no longer exist

And then I will have happiness.

Can you see the overload of expectations here?

During our inquiry together, you have been looking to prove the existence of an independent, separate "I". And, as far as I have seen from your responses you haven't found one, other than as a thought trying to pin down a bundle of thoughts or sensations in the body by a thought "I".

So a thought label "I" wants to reach disidentifcation so that "it" (thought label "I" ) will no longer exist.
How can something that cannot be located anywhere, i.e. be objectively seen to exist, no longer exist?

And then "I" will have happiness?
Look at this thought. It is a thought about the future.
In your direct experience, can such a thought be found anywhere other than Here Now?
So now, the next step is to ask:
What is this thought "....and then "I" will have happiness" pointing to?
Are there visual images of imagined happy times?
Are there body sensations communicating unhappiness now? And if so,
Can a sensation talk?
Sensations are here to be received and felt.

How does this "illusion of "self" show itself other than a thought?

I can’t find anything else. It looks like the “me” is in the thoughts. Although I do notice the illusion of “me” in the face and in the tension of the face (specifically in the eyes) when I do the exercise you suggested, it becomes more obvious that the illusion is actually built more around thoughts.

This is really good work. All the exercises/meditations working with direct experience are to help with clarity, and also to slow down the way we have learned to short-cut 'noticing' so that experience isn't just through interpretation, but lived more fully with all the senses active, including body sensations.

It is not that thoughts are not useful, of course they are, the intellect is a wonderful tool, but it is not to be relied upon regarding 'personal' thoughts, perspectives, feelings, especially with 'self-talk'.

Take a look at these sentences, repeat them quietly to yourself and notice the responses in your body when you say them, gently alternate between them:

- I haven't reached what I was hoping for.
- There is no "I" that can reach for anything, there is just this.

Please get quiet when you do this, allow your body time to respond, the body is constantly responding to the environment, that's what bodies automatically do, it is inbuilt as survival instinct.

Let me know what you find.

Warmly,

Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

You did not answer this question from your direct experience. There was no mention of thoughts here, and you just repeated your previous answer. I would like you to LOOK again.

While I was copying the question, I forgot that I had already answered it, and it looks like I answered the wrong question.

Who or what is aware of those experiences? Is there anything, any "thing" that can be found as a separate 'entity' or personal
"I" that is aware?

There is no separate observer or anyone who is aware

[Noro]

Ok, I will wait to hear back regarding the other question and the exploration with the two sentences. Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

How can something that cannot be located anywhere, i.e. be objectively seen to exist, no longer exist?

I know it’s more of a rhetorical question, but if I were to answer, I’d say it’s like a tangled bundle of wires that needs to be untangled. I think what you said really points to it: the key is to fully see that no separate “I” is actually there, even when it still appears to be. There is already some seeing, but not yet a 100% recognition that there has never been a separate “I” to find.

In your direct experience, can such a thought be found anywhere other than Here Now?

No

What is this thought "
'....and then "I" will have happiness"
pointing to?
Are there visual images of imagined happy times?

Yes

Are there body sensations communicating unhappiness now?
And if so,
Can a sensation talk?

No, absolutely not

Sensations are here to be received and felt.

Yes

1. I haven't reached what I was hoping for.
2. There is no "'" that can reach for anything, there is just this.

In the first case, I noticed a stronger heartbeat and more shallow breathing. In the second, my breathing was calmer and deeper, and there was an overall more relaxed state.

[Noro]

Hi Idk,

I know it’s more of a rhetorical question, but if I were to answer, I’d say it’s like a tangled bundle of wires that needs to be untangled. I think what you said really points to it: the key is to fully see that no separate “I” is actually there, even when it still appears to be. There is already some seeing, but not yet a 100% recognition that there has never been a separate “I” to find.

Yes, very well put. Also, the expectation of 100% recognition is also a bit tricky. Most of the time there are no thoughts about whether there is an "I" or no "I", except when they arise and are not recognized as simply thoughts appearing. Everyday conventional reality continues as it always has. So it is more a matter of continued looking if some doubt arises and when there is self-talk like "I'm not sure that I've fully recognized that there has never been a separate "I" to find." To see that as just another thought belonging to no one in particular. Eventually, the need to keep looking fades away. It is like the example of the lost keys, going round and round in circles looking for them in the same place and thinking that they must be there. Eventually it is accepted once and for all that they are not there!

What is this thought "....and then "I" will have happiness", pointing to?
Are there visual images of imagined happy times?

Yes

It is good that you've seen this, because it is an important finding. We have many associations that arise as mental images that are not always picked up. They are more subtle than direct verbal thinking, and can play a huge part in keeping the illusion going. So, now you have another thing to look out for! Inquiry will continue, on a more subtle level as there will be things that arise that will cause reaction as long as there is conditioning to look at!

1. I haven't reached what I was hoping for.
2. There is no "I" that can reach for anything, there is just this.

In the first case, I noticed a stronger heartbeat and more shallow breathing. In the second, my breathing was calmer and deeper, and there was an overall more relaxed state.

Excellent! So now you have the confirmation you need. The illusion of self is created from a movement of tension, stronger heartbeat, more shallow breathing etc. as the bodymind goes into a more alert state.


Now please look carefully, replying from the evidence that you have found from your direct experience:

Do you control thoughts?

Do you control movements?

Do you control sensations?

Do you control attention?

Can you remove yourself from where you are?

Can you separate yourself from the space around you?

Even if the answers seem obvious, please look openly and freshly to see what is true. The crux is not to think about it but be still and see in real time.

Warmly,

Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

Do you control thoughts?

No

Do you control movements?

No

Do you control sensations?

No

Do you control attention?

No

Can you remove yourself from where you are?

No

Can you separate yourself from the space around you?

No

[Noro]

Hello Idk,

Is it clear to you now that there is no actual separate 'self' to be found anywhere?

If it is clear, then the next step would be to send you some 'final' questions for you to answer and then I would share your answers with other guides for review and any further questions. But before I do that, here are some questions for you.

What is the situation now concerning thoughts about disidentification?
Are these thoughts still a concern? If so, please say more about how this is so?
Are there any other expectations that haven't been met?
What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on, or any other activity pertaining to doubt of some kind?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, that it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Warmly,

Rowena

[Idk]

Hi Rowena,

Is it clear to you now that there is no actual separate 'self' to be found anywhere?

No, not completely. There is still a sense of “me”. I can’t always find it, but there is still an idea of myself. Sometimes it becomes weaker and more unclear, and sometimes it feels stronger again. But it still feels like it’s there, and I don’t see it disappearing or becoming less over time. I also don’t feel like I can clearly see 100% that there is no “me”. I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to do in this situation.

[Noro]

Hi Idk,

No, not completely. There is still a sense of “me”. I can’t always find it, but there is still an idea of myself. Sometimes it becomes weaker and more unclear, and sometimes it feels stronger again. But it still feels like it’s there, and I don’t see it disappearing or becoming less over time. I also don’t feel like I can clearly see 100% that there is no “me”. I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to do in this situation.

It is OK to have the feelings you are having, but take the believing about them with a pinch of salt. Always inquire when there are any personal beliefs or feelings arising. You know by now that they are never what they seem, even if we get carried away by them for a short while. Be a surfer and ride the wave.


Here is the perfect inquiry for you to take a look at again.

EXPLORE - SENSE OF SELF:
The difference in sensing something to be true and Seeing that it is or isn't.
A sense of "me" will continue, you cant get rid of sensations, but you can see through the labelling of them. An idea of myself is a thought overlay onto either a thought image or a body sensation. Each time there is doubt is an invitation to investigate. And yes, I get it, certainty is desired, but for whom, if no separate, independent self or "me" can be located?

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there.
At this point you can keep on believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit that even if they were, they are no longer there now.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys.

Now I'd like you to explore this "sense of self" very thoroughly, not by thinking about it but be LOOKING FOR IT. There might be a familiar sensation that we label a sense of self, but can an actual self be found? Keep the focus of attention on this sense of self and answer each question separately and feel free to answer with a simple yes or no when appropriate:

Does this sense of self have a specific location? Yes/No
If Yes, is it permanently fixed, or does it come and go?
And if it comes and goes, where does it go to?
Does this sense of self have a shape or a size? Yes/No
Does this sense of self say or communicate anything? Yes/No
If the answer is yes, how does it do this?
Does this sense of self have any specific characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?
What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?
Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No
In conclusion, is there any separate self to be found?

Remember, it is your direct experience, not whatever feelings and thoughts that come up about it, that we want to get clear about. Direct experience is not thinking about something, thinking about is mental overlay.

I also don’t feel like I can clearly see 100% that there is no “me”. I’m not really sure what I’m supposed to do in this situation.

You say you dont feel like you can clearly see.
How does it feel not to clearly see? Please let me know.
Feeling refers to body sensations.
Thinking refers to thoughts about seeing or not seeing.

If you were to say I dont think like I can clearly see 100% that there's no "me" then I would suggest that that was a thought appearing, and to go and look for the 'me' or thinker of that thought?

"I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do in this situation"!!

I don't know either, what can "you" do if there is no separate "I" or "you" to be found that can do, or not do, anything?
Please let me know what "you" can do?

PS, your answers from the previous questions to remind you:

Do you control thoughts?
No
Do you control movements?
No
Do you control sensations?
No
Do you control attention?
No
Can you remove yourself from where you are?
No
Can you separate yourself from the space around you?
No

Here are a couple of videos for you to watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
"Sometimes waking up goes back and forth a bit"

After awakening: Why the body still contracts. Ilona on Expectations
https://youtu.be/9KIpyc_yCTQ?si=bPF0aMlWORonXEuk

Finally: Please take a moment every day to sit quietly and repeat the following:
There is no "I" that can reach for anything, there is just this.
There is no "I" that can achieve anything, there is just this.
There is no "I" that can control anything, there is just this

And report back to me the effect that saying these words has on your state of being.

Take your time with these questions etc. there's no rush. No one is being put to the test, allow yourself to relax and not get stressed by your thoughts.

Warmly,

Rowena