What/Who Am I

[LovingLezle3]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I realized many years ago it would be impossible to die as the essence of who I am is intangible. When I look for this ME I do not find but the mind continues to dominate my experience. Though I think I understand there is no me I seem unable to directly experience this truth. I cannot seem to know without doubt that my thoughts are not ME

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for truth, for unmistakable knowing for unshakeable seeing through the illusion of the separate self. To finally directly experience the falling away of this mind identification into truth.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance, challenge, questions and prompting that take me deeper into truth. The encouragement of a tenacious insistence that I keep looking until I see clearly and to challenge the doubts and fears that restrict my practice. To push through these to the other side of illusion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have followed several non dual teachers over the years. I have been on this path one way or another for decades I am now in my 60s. I have a deep desire to know the truth of who I am and I struggle with doubt and fear.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[ashton]

I cannot seem to know without doubt that my thoughts are not ME

Maybe because thoughts are...
And maybe because sense of self is...
🤔

And you are seeing them as different than they are?


That was probably too esoteric. It's just my hopefulness that hopes what I said may have pierced right on through.

But we will inspect it.

Anyways, welcone aboard, LovingLezle3. My name is Ashton and I'll be your guide.
I think we'll have a good and interesting time.
You can call me Ash or Ashton. Whatever works. Lmk if there's an easier name I can call you.

The way this is going to work is I am going to put things that you say in quotes by copying a sentence or paragraph of yours that strikes me by placing that copied text inside of the quote function up above this textbox. It'll appear as [ quote ] (copied text here) [ /quote ] except there won't be spaces. You'll do the same when answering my questions. Simple enough, right?!

When I ask you these questions, I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought. Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

To clarify, you CAN tell me "Ash, thought is/was coming up and it was saying xyz thing". But that is drastically different than forming your answer FROM thought. See how that example is different? That statement would have been formed through experience being seen directly and/or memory.

You can respond to the above quote but here is another thing we will look at:

When I look for this ME I do not find but the mind continues to dominate my experience.

Are you saying that whenever 'looking' is part of your experience, that thought continues to arise during the 'looking?

And what about 'looking' itself? Are you suggesting that when 'looking' is there, somehow it isn't actually there? Or that maybe when 'looking' is there, it fluxes in and out of experience with a lot of 'thoughts'/'thinking' as your experience? As if 'looking' and 'thinking' keep trading focal points?

Remember, if looking is happening right now, that's a great time to see what is happening. If it is happening. If it isn't, you'll have to use memory from when looking was happening. Or you'll have to wait until looking happens in your experience. What I don't want is for you to tell me your answer from thinking. I want you to tell me your answer from witnessing.

Ash.

[LovingLezle3]

Hi Ash
Call me Lesley. Thank you for being my guide.

Maybe because thoughts are...
And maybe because sense of self is"


I can't work out the colour thing but anyway. My response when I read this; 'what I am (because I have read it or been told maybe) is all of this, everything, everywhere, everyone'. But this mind won't let up on consuming my attention at all times. When I seek a direct experience by noticing what is around the body in between the objects etc the mind seems to want to just draw me away and bring in pernicious doubt?

"Are you saying that whenever 'looking' is part of your experience, that thought continues to arise during the 'looking? ' I think so yes'

And what about 'looking' itself? Are you suggesting that when 'looking' is there, somehow it isn't actually there? Or that maybe when 'looking' is there, it fluxes in and out of experience with a lot of 'thoughts'/'thinking' as your experience? As if 'looking' and 'thinking' keep trading focal points? Again I think this is an accurate description

Remember, if looking is happening right now, that's a great time to see what is happening. If it is happening. If it isn't, you'll have to use memory from when looking was happening. Or you'll have to wait until looking happens in your experience. What I don't want is for you to tell me your answer from thinking. I want you to tell me your answer from witnessing."

The mind immediately says on reading the above - overwhelm. I try to slow it down and read through again. Something here does not like that so I have to steady the reins which takes effort. How do I know when looking is happening. Mind keeps saying I am doing the looking for you? I cannot ever be sure where looking is coming from.

[LovingLezle3]

Hi Ash
Just to say once I submitted the reply I then saw how the color spread works so from now on I will know how to do that in the way you suggested. Apologies if you struggle to see my responses clearly in this first send.

[ashton]

Good morning Lesley,

Thank you for being my guide.

Of course!

Remember, if looking is happening right now, that's a great time to see what is happening. If it is happening. If it isn't, you'll have to use memory from when looking was happening. Or you'll have to wait until looking happens in your experience. What I don't want is for you to tell me your answer from thinking. I want you to tell me your answer from witnessing."

The mind immediately says on reading the above - overwhelm. I try to slow it down and read through again. Something here does not like that so I have to steady the reins which takes effort. How do I know when looking is happening. Mind keeps saying I am doing the looking for you? I cannot ever be sure where looking is coming from.

Great description. So experience for you flowed like this:
1. You Read the above
2. Thoughts came in saying 'overwhelm'
3. 'Trying' as an event occurred to slow down the overwhelm
4. Rereading occurred
5. Effort got noticed of trying to steady the reins
6. You probably start writing

Is that how it happened?

My questions:
1. Did any of those events overlap or were they all standalones from one another? The only correct answer is whatever actually took place.
2. Is there anything wrong with that flowing of events? It moved from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6. So what?
3. Assuming you think there is something wrong with that flow of events, you're gonna write me what you perceive as being wrong about it or not great about it or what you wish was inherently different about it if there was any wish for it to be different or less of something or more of something.

But this mind won't let up on consuming my attention at all times.

Are you suggesting that 'clarity' or 'meta-awareness' is in your experience as an event 24/7? Look. See if it actually is there 24/7. Look and see. Is it there while you are sleeping? Don't tell me from thought. Sleep. Report your findings. Maybe it is there. Maybe not. I don't know. Only you know, but only to the extent that you actually look or try to. That is... if remembering to look in and of itself is even there 24/7... see if that is the case too while you're at it. Report your findings with real life experiences so I know that your findings are from looking and not from thought.

Ash

[LovingLezle3]

Is that how it happened?

Pretty much yes

Did any of those events overlap or were they all standalones from one another? The only correct answer is whatever actually took place.

[m/color]

I am not sure and this mind hates uncertainty. I think there was overlap but I cannot be sure (of anything)

Is there anything wrong with that flowing of events? It moved from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6. So what?
Inherently no but I wish the doubting would cease and more allowing of a true experience of what I really am

Are you suggesting that 'clarity' or 'meta-awareness' is in your experience as an event 24/7? Look. See if it actually is there 24/7. Look and see. Is it there while you are sleeping? Don't tell me from thought. Sleep. Report your findings. Maybe it is there. Maybe not. I don't know. Only you know, but only to the extent that you actually look or try to. That is... if remembering to look in and of itself is even there 24/7... see if that is the case too while you're at it. Report your findings with real life experiences so I know that your findings are from looking and not from thought.

I will investigate and get back to you on this

[LovingLezle3]

Oops messed up the colour text again. Will get the hang of it

[ashton]

Hi Lesley,

Are you suggesting that 'clarity' or 'meta-awareness' is in your experience as an event 24/7? Look. See if it actually is there 24/7. Look and see. Is it there while you are sleeping? Don't tell me from thought. Sleep. Report your findings. Maybe it is there. Maybe not. I don't know. Only you know, but only to the extent that you actually look or try to. That is... if remembering to look in and of itself is even there 24/7... see if that is the case too while you're at it. Report your findings with real life experiences so I know that your findings are from looking and not from thought.

I will investigate and get back to you on this

👍

I am not sure and this mind hates uncertainty.

Okay. So uncertainty arose. That got noticed. Hate or distaste towards said uncertainty arose after that. That got noticed.

What if when uncertainty arose, that was all that could possibly be there? What if when the hate/distaste that came after, was all that could possibly be there?

I'm not asking you to like uncertainty. I'm not asking anything from you actually. I'm just asking you to look: when uncertainty and hatred towards it arose, was there any consent for it to arise? Or did it just arise? Without asking for your permission, for anyone's permission..?

Look at your experience. Don't tell me from thought. Heck, I'm sure as you're reading my questions right now, even more might be coming up. Maybe even more unpleasant sensations. If that is in fact the case... same thing... did it just happen on its own? Did you tell your experience "Hey, bring me uncertainty! Bring me distaste towards that uncertainty! Bring me unpleasant sensations!" and then it did that? Or did it just do it on its own?

Is there anything wrong with that flowing of events? It moved from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6. So what?

Inherently no but I wish the doubting would cease and more allowing of a true experience of what I really am

Same thing. Doubt arose. Wishing it would cease came after. Thought content of those 2 links in the chain "somehow not being a true experience" arose. That's 3 links of a chain.

Notice how you noticed 2 links, but didn't notice the 3rd? Maybe you did notice the 3rd. But because the content of the thought is so "seemingly true", you bought into it. What if that thought is just a thought? What else is it? Tell me. What else is it other than a thought?

Ash.

[LovingLezle3]

[*]What if when uncertainty arose, that was all that could possibly be there? What if when the hate/distaste that came after, was all that could possibly be there?[/color]

Okay

[*]I'm not asking you to like uncertainty. I'm not asking anything from you actually. I'm just asking you to look: when uncertainty and hatred towards it arose, was there any consent for it to arise? Or did it just arise? Without asking for your permission, for anyone's permission..?



No permission asked and something here likes this. It is a relief there is not a ME doing anything

[*]Look at your experience. Don't tell me from thought. Heck, I'm sure as you're reading my questions right now, even more might be coming up. Maybe even more unpleasant sensations. If that is in fact the case... same thing... did it just happen on its own? Did you tell your experience "Hey, bring me uncertainty! Bring me distaste towards that uncertainty! Bring me unpleasant sensations!" and then it did that? Or did it just do it on its own?

You keep telling me not to tell you from thought but how can I know? I did not ask for any of these sensations or thoughts they came on their own. Good

S[*]ame thing. Doubt arose. Wishing it would cease came after. Thought content of those 2 links in the chain "somehow not being a true experience" arose. That's 3 links of a chain.

Notice how you noticed 2 links, but didn't notice the 3rd? Maybe you did notice the 3rd. But because the content of the thought is so "seemingly true", you bought into it. What if that thought is just a thought? What else is it? Tell me. What else is it other than a thought?

Wow I love this. This is so helpful it is all just thought but you are spot on I did not catch it. Smiley face

[LovingLezle3]

Okay I am not quite there with the formatting but getting closer Lol

[ashton]

No permission asked and something here likes this. It is a relief there is not a ME doing anything

Can you see the plausibility that relief may not arise just because you can see the links in the chain happen as they happen? What if you see events happening with good clarity and nothing but pain comes? And just because you see that pain, nothing changes. The pain may persist. It may get worse. Hopelessness may arise. Then what? Are you prepared for that? What if preparedness doesn't even arise when all that pain is there?

there is not a ME doing anything

Let's cut a bit deeper into this. Is there a sense of self? At all? Sometimes? Always? Never? Look. See.

You keep telling me not to tell you from thought but how can I know?

If I tell you to pay attention to your breath and I tell you to breathe in for 4 seconds, hold for 4 seconds, breathe out for 4 seconds, then go back to normal...

Your attention would probably naturally go there. Does it? Do the exercise. Then tell me, as you did that exercise, did you do it perfectly as I said? Or was there any hiccup that occurred? Maybe you did 1 part for 3 seconds by accident? Actually tell me what happened. Write it down in your response.

Now you wrote that down. How did that happen? Or did it just happen? Was thought even there? Or just writing? Or both?

Ash

[ashton]

Post #2

Maybe we are having a bit of a hiccup on the word 'thought'/'thinking'

Maybe it would be more precise for me to use the word 'reasoning'. I want your answers to come from you telling me your experience as it happens or happened or via memory. Not from reasoning faculties. Hopefully that clears up any confusion

[LovingLezle3]

I do understand what you are asking me I think I just experience so much uncertainty about what is mind and what is truth..

I will look at your other comments tomorrow and respond from there. Thanks so much Ash

[ashton]

Well?

(Sorry if you were waiting on me all this time- I was waiting on you lol)