Nezinau

[Vytas2222]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The 'I' is just a story we create about ourselves. After seeing through identification, 'I' is being, presence, attention — yet even attention can be noticed, so I'm not that either. There's no past or future, only stories that pull me from now. I'm not Vytas, not a father, not a son. Asking 'Who am I?' shows what I'm not. I don't know what I am.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking to find a guide or a person that could lead me through the process of shadow work or find what is still holding and letting back - but especially working on the seeker inside me, I had an experience you can call it a bliss about a 1,5 years when I detached form the thoughts - If you are talking in your head who is listening and my journey started .... So to be honest I am looking for the real conversation with people who have gone through that journey or still are .....

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Identifying couple of things - finding my shadows, I can identify them the old programs that I see also main idea is by sharing my experience understanding from other point what holds me , I understand that it is just another seeking , but talking to real person would help that understands what I am talking about...

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
The main practices I use is daily writing for self inquiry , asking and analysing situations - that is my main practices ... I meditate but not on daily basis , asking question who I am and I am ...... I dont have strict practices except daily writing and observing and noticing in everyday life... At the moment I am already exhausted reading different spiritual books and adapting different practices.... So only writing in the mornings for analysing my self and the actions ....

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas2222
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

HI nice to meet you Rali ,

What time zone are you in? - Time zone in Vilnius, Vilnius City Municipality (GMT+3)

[Vytas2222]

Also calm me Vytas , I am still new here ;) so will have to figure out how this forum works from the technical side . Also my english language skill are good but I am not a native speaker just wanted to mention.

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

Time zone in Vilnius, Vilnius City Municipality (GMT+3)

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

my English language skill are good but I am not a native speaker just wanted to mention.

Great! Please let me know if you struggle to understand something.

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali , thanks , I have checked everything it's subscribed. I am just not the biggest user of email as communication :) but I will check it ... Answering the questions bellow

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I don't know if their will be any difference in what is happening in case of living a daily life. Its a future event , being honest I dont know.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

You mean guiding and talking ? Just maybe identifying parts in me that still runs on autopilot and also the things that brought me here. If you mean the process it self I don't know.

3. What do you want not to happen?

To leave everything and go to India , just joking. I never thought about it what will happen will happen in case I want o r I dont want.

4. What are you hoping for?

I am hoping just to talk with real persons who already are in the journey and share my own experiencie,,, maybe to understanda what it is ... I am not a meditator o a person who was looking for the bliss being honest as an end result , the shift just happened ....

5. What is missing?

I just need with whom to talk , reagarding , looking for seeker in me is very strong as I see it ,,, seeker to reach the same bliss that was achieved, seeking to share my experience with others, after the bliss , seeking for diferent practices and so on ... S

thanks for the questiions

[poppyseed]

Hey Vytas

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I don't know if their will be any difference in what is happening in case of living a daily life.

And you are right! Why would the absence of something (the self) that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?! :)
Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.
But now let see…
… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali ,

maybe I will share the full story of me first to understand my journey and give a little bit of background , I am 43 , from early days I thought something is not right , not right with me and so on. Till 26 I was heavy abuser on alcohol and stimulant drugs and any drugs except opioids ... I had shifts in energy and big clashes after that ,,,, Then I was at 26 I was at the bottom and went to 12 steps program I excluded stimulants and alco from my life till now. I learned my life from bottom started lots of sports , cold plunges 10 years , wim hof breathing , and other practices that could just change my energy levels ... At 35/37 I started to be interested in philosophy (as still understand that still nothing is changing as I was always living in huge mental suffering.... Also i was not a daily but till now marihuana smoker , as it would always calm my mind..... Just to get the contest , also i tripped with different psychodellics dmt 40+ trips , 5 me dmt 5+ , mushroom heroic trips 15 + ,,,, I had bad trips , seeing in an out other worlds and lots of things... But being honest i understood that psychodelics only can show emotions or some fixable parts of my character or states taht you can reach being sober.

At 39 I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder 2 , they tried to cure me but at the end of the process (I was cured with lythium) I understood that everything is good with me and its super power not a thing I have to change ........

So we are getting to the story as I want you to give as much context as I can ..... Somewhere 2 years ago the thought came to my mind as I think i got tired fighting this ongoing suffering from my mind and the first thing appear maybe everyone is suffering and their is no way out and lets live with it and stop trying to fix it or change it ,,, So it was a small sift as I see it now, after that I had a DMT trip with intension to go in the trip and asking what todo , instead and it was only one time after all my trips in life I came back from trip and instantly on my mobile wrote to questions - Who am I and What are you looking for. I eaven didn't new that those questions are asked in spiritual literature at that moment... so I have decided every morning to add it to my daily writing routine - as I was observing in it before that what 3 good or bad things happened to me (from emotional level) ,,, I tried to answer those questions for 2 months ,,, With who am I ? after to months i came to the answer - I dont know , with what I am looking for - it went to what I am looking today- to that I already found everything...

Still I had one friend who suggested me to read erchart tole - the new earth ,,,, I have only read it after month ,,, and it was audio book ... I was listening to it till the moment where he said if you are a the person that is talking (the inner voice) so who listens ? and then something sifted , I have started to see the thoughts as not my I dont know how to say it in words , but as I started to see my thoughts as not mine they started to vanish and my head for the first time in my life became quiet ,,, At first I thought i went crazy :) I was going to bed and as this day i had cannabis I thought its just the experience on the cannabis. in the morning I got up and the mind said you are exhausted , and i saw the thought and start laughing ,,, Then I had 2 weeks of true experience of presence , their is now words just feeling the world around you pulsing and so interesting from perspective of life... After the honey period as you can call it came also different dar episodes where ego wanted to take back I dont know how to express it.... I tried to atlk to people around me nobody could understand what I am talking about... almost no one... So during this time it has passed 1,5 years , I am going through the journey , i started listening to every book I can find , doing different practices ... and so on ,,, also some kind of the other thing sifted I can see in people their emotional situation very clear and it was a liitle bit disturbing for me...

I dont know why but now , I started to feel tired of all the books , all the teachings ,all the practices... what left is the daily writing who am I , to whom those thoughts rise and past day sitautions looking for the root o program inside of me ... Couple of days ago. i had a new shift were i saw the emotion saddnes but just the emotion and it changed,,,

So sorry for the long text jsut wanted to let you know more ... also during that time I had different understanding feelings and so on the present moments came and went somewhere back ....

No getting back to you questions

… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

If you look for the I, what is there? nothing I cant find the I in my body i close my eyes and cant find it ...
If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Nothing come up , emptiness
I jus close my eyes and look in the body
The first thing came to my mind I have already looked for them , no other thoughts ...

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas

Thank you for giving me the background. Usually this belongs in the “What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?” section in your introductory qyestions, but maybe you didn’t feel like sharing that early on. I have read it carefully, and you do not need to repeat or expand the story further.
From here, let us keep the replies focused and brief. This inquiry is not about your history, psychedelic experiences, spiritual states, books, diagnoses, or previous insights. It is also not about finding the right spiritual answer. We are looking only at what is happening directly, now.

Please answer from the exercise itself, in no more than a few sentences per question.

nothing I cant find the I in my body i close my eyes and cant find it ...

Nothing come up , emptiness

I jus close my eyes and look in the body
The first thing came to my mind I have already looked for them , no other thoughts ...

Great! That gives me an idea where “you” are. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you SEE. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, take a look and locate them. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience.

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Please report only what you actually observe while doing this—not what you already understand.
Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hi Rali ,

Thanks for the instructions , I will just answer the questions in short ....

I don't have an apple here in the office so I will use image.

I see the image of the red apple with leaves and water drops on it.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?)

Its known as I have tried it before, not particular one , but I have tasted an apple before and touched it,,,

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? C

Its an image of the apple. Apple in this image is a thought.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

This image can be seen in actual experience but not the apple

Best regards <

Vytas

[poppyseed]

Hey Vytas

I don't have an apple here in the office so I will use image.

You can try this exercise with any object that you have at your disposal – a chair, a stapler, scissors…

Please do not report memories like

Its known as I have tried it before, not particular one , but I have tasted an apple before and touched it,,,

but direct observations. Hold again these questions in mind with the selected object (‘…’):

Taste labelled ‘…’ is known (if it is right now)
Sound labelled ‘…’ is known (if it is right now)
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘…’ is known (if it is right now)
Sensation labelled ‘…’ is known (if it is right now)
Smell labelled ‘…’ is known (if it is right now)
Thought about/of an ‘…’ is known

However, is a ' …’ actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘…’ here, or only colour/taste/smell/sound/sensation (whatever is present right now) and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘…’ be found in actual experience?
Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali ,,,

Had to use a little bit of translation :)



1 A lighter

but direct observations. Hold again these questions in mind with the selected object (“ lighter ’):

Taste labelled ‘lighter ’ is known (if it is right now) - no right now
Sound labelled ‘lighter ’ is known (if it is right now) - no right now
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘lighter ’ is known (if it is right now) - yes its known
Sensation labelled ‘lighter ’ is known (if it is right now) - is known when touched
Smell labelled ‘lighter ’ is known (if it is right now) - no right now
Thought about/of an ‘lighter ’ - is known



However, is a ' lighter’ actually known? (Or is it just a label?) - labeled
Is there really an ‘ lighter’ here, or only colour/taste/smell/sound/sensation (whatever is present right now) and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Only Colour , sensation and thought
Can ‘ lighter’ be found in actual experience? - no - only the thought

2 glass of green tea

but direct observations. Hold again these questions in mind with the selected object (“ glass of green tea ’):

Taste labelled ‘glass of green tea ’ is known (if it is right now) - is known when drinkable
Sound labelled ‘glass of green tea ’ is known (if it is right now) - no right now
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘glass of green tea ’ is known (if it is right now) - its known right now
Sensation labelled ‘glass of green tea ’ is known (if it is right now) - is known when the glass is touched
Smell labelled ‘glass of green tea’ is known (if it is right now) - is known when is smelled
Thought about/of an ‘glass of green tea ’ - is known



However, is a ' glass of green tea’’ actually known? (Or is it just a label?) - labeled
Is there really an ‘ glass of green tea’’ here, or only colour/taste/smell/sound/sensation (whatever is present right now) and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Only Colour , taste , smell , sensation and thought
Can ‘ glass of green tea’ be found in actual experience? - no - only the thought

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas

Wonderful!!

Is there really an ‘ glass of green tea’’ here, or only colour/taste/smell/sound/sensation (whatever is present right now) and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Only Colour , taste , smell , sensation and thought
Can ‘ glass of green tea’ be found in actual experience? - no - only the thought

Yes, ‘glass of green tea’ is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “glass”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label not just objects, but also daily activities and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the green tea example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hmmm... Just spotted a mistake in my reply :) which makes thisngs confusing:

Yes, ‘glass of green tea’ is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “glass”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

In stead:
Yes, ‘glass of green tea’ is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual glass as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?
I apologise :)

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali ,

I thinks its clear about direct experience , now i see collors in monitor , and sensation - by pressing keyboard. thought about writing a reply - simply a thought. Also will share some daily activities :

Going from work

Feeling the feet on the steps , simply = feeling sensation
Feeling the wind on my arms , simply = feeling sensation
Seeing the tree , simply seeing = colours (seeing)
Thought about the work , simply = thought (thinking)
Hearing the birds , simply = sound (hearing)


Eating lunch

Smelling the food , simply = feeling sensation
Feeling the taste , simply = feeling sensation
Seeing the tree , simply seeing = colours (seeing)
Thought about eating , simply = thought (thinking)
Hearing the surrounding , simply = sound (hearing)


Smoking the cigarette

Smelling the smoke , simply = feeling sensation
Inhaling the smoke, simply = feeling sensation
Seeing the cigarete , simply seeing = colours (seeing)
Thought about smoking , simply = thought (thinking)
Hearing the surrounding , simply = sound (hearing)


best regards Vytas :)