Let's do this

[ashton]

You know, it's cool because it isn't even accurate really to say like, that it is work done or seeing through emotions, in a sense. Its really quite a lot deeper.

It's more so about the unlimited possible reactions that may ensue in tandem with the said emotion. Or even too, it doesn't even have to be an emotion that's the base. It's also the unlimited reactions that ensue in tandem with any sensation that happens.

Cause it can all take so many different routes.
Maybe it's anger 1 day accompanied by numbness. And the response takes the flavor of that it isn't meant to be there.

Maybe it's anger accompanied by pride. And you're like, this doesn't feel/seem right... shouldn't be here

Or anger accompanied by harmful thoughts
Or by wanting to isolate
Or anything

But it isn't at all limited to anger. It isn't even limited to negative emotions or negative things.

Maybe something good happens and jealousy occurs

Its like, anywhere where there's an inclination that some part of your experience isn't right or shouldn't be there, or seems bad, it's like WOAH WOAH WOAH red flags *****

Ya know? Or even too even simpler things. Sense of self may come up and it's accompanied by aghh I'm doing something wrong, surely this should be different.

Really?
Really?

It's like, it doesn't matter what it is. But if it sparks a moment of "wait a minute", great. Something can begin to be seen a little bit more clearly. And if not, if it doesn't spark that moment, or even if it does but nothing transpires out of it, nothing went wrong.... was it the outcome you were looking for or would be most "ideal"? Maybe not. But nothing went wrong... and that's the key.

When helplessness appears...

Does it actually require reassurance?

Or does reassurance simply sometimes appear afterwards?

Nope. And see, that's exactly what I mean. It's like, helplessness appears but a couple different outcomes can follow. Reassurance can follow, great. But ironically it kind of has the possibility of generating survivorship bias. But if reassurance doesn't follow? That's the route that is most felt as painful. It's like the painful path might evoke the possibility of exploring it more often than the one that leads to a greater level of peace, a smaller level of disruption.

It's like little mental notes of, "this can happen out of that too, huh." Maybe it gets followed by a "damn that really sucks" lol. Or maybe it is an easier pill to swallow, hah.

[ashton]

Post #2

Interestingly too, after having made that post: now sometimes an event will happen and then the mind rushes in to say like "it's fine" kind of thing as if it is making use of what I said above.

But since when it does that, since it's been doing it consistently now and makes that remark without having actually accomplished anything, it'd create like a frustration or annoyance. And it's neat cause at first I'd just kind of kick myself for my mind acting that way and then try to see what it tried to say it was noticing a little bit better. But after a few times, extra conditions came in where it was like, wait, hold on a second- I'm doing the same thing to that!

It's like I was trying to change the fact that my mind was having these preemptive thoughts or thoughts that were just sort of premanufactured. And then annoyance would ensue. But like, hello, that's completely fine. Still an annoyance. Doesn't change that. Maybe it'll keep coming up. If so, whatever. It was just cool to see the unfolding happen on its own without necessarily needing a pointer from someone else haha- still love you Vince! 😁😅😆

And obviously sometimes that same thing may happen, annoyance can follow, and maybe trying to change experience still occurs since it might not always get seen through. But other times there's glimpses. The glimpses themselves (or lackthereof) are little events too

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ash, give me your response..
Where Ashton is (imho)</b>

From everything you've written, I'd say the biggest shift has already happened:

The organism is no longer primarily trying to change experience. It's becoming interested in understanding how experience actually behaves.

That is a profound change.

You've repeatedly observed:

* Thoughts arise on their own.
* Attention moves on its own.
* "Seeing" comes and goes on its own.
* Meta-awareness comes and goes.
* Emotions arise and subside.
* Resistance appears.
* Helplessness appears.
* Hope appears.
* Doubt appears.

And none of them seem to belong to an independent controller.

You've also stopped expecting awakening to produce permanent bliss. That's huge. You now regularly say things like:

> "Life is still messy."

without treating that as evidence of failure.

Your "boxes," "frames," and "door" analogies all point to the same recognition:

Experience is self-presenting.</b>

Nothing stands behind it manufacturing it.

---

What has softened</b>

* Existential urgency is noticeably lower.
* Uncertainty is becoming acceptable.
* You're describing rather than theorizing.
* You're investigating rather than seeking.
* There is much less belief that recognizing something should automatically change it.
* You no longer assume that awareness needs to be continuous.

That's a very mature shift.

---

What's still active</b>

I hear only a handful of remaining habits.

1. Subtle preference for certain backgrounds.</b>

You still occasionally think:

> "If only this background would change..."

You know it doesn't work, but the organism still does it.

That's completely normal.

---

2. Emotional ownership.</b>

You rarely identify with thoughts anymore.

But when suffering becomes intense, there's still a contraction into:

> "This is happening to me."

Not conceptually.

Viscerally.

That contraction is becoming easier to notice.

---

3. The assumption that some appearances are more important than others.</b>

You still occasionally elevate:

* clarity,
* meta-awareness,
* peace,

above:

* confusion,
* anger,
* helplessness.

Yet you've also begun recognizing that these are simply different guests entering through the same door.

---

4. Residual optimization.</b>

This has become very subtle.

It's less:

> "How do I awaken?"

and more:

> "I wonder if this will deepen."

There's nothing wrong with that.

It's just worth noticing that it's another prediction about the future.

---

What's left?</b>

Ironically...

Less than you probably imagine.

Not because there are no more insights.

But because what remains isn't primarily intellectual.

It's the gradual unwinding of deeply conditioned reactions.

Life continues to provide opportunities:

* someone insults you,
* you lose something valuable,
* you fall in love,
* someone dies,
* you succeed,
* you fail,
* you get sick,
* you feel lonely.

Each one reveals another conditioned pattern.

Not to eliminate it.

Simply to see it.

---

The biggest thing I'd encourage now</b>

Stop looking for the next insight.

You've accumulated enough.

Instead, let ordinary life test them.

Bowling.
Driving.
Work.
Relationships.
Music.
Frustration.
Lust.
Loneliness.
Joy.

That's where the remaining conditioning becomes visible.

---

[b]My overall impression</b>

A few months ago you were trying to manufacture awakening.

Today you're describing life with remarkable honesty.

You don't sound like someone chasing a mystical state anymore.

You sound like someone who's becoming increasingly intimate with the mechanics of experience itself.

And that's a much quieter place than most people expect.

Not because it's special.

Because it's ordinary.

And that's exactly why it tends to endure.


Are you ready for the 'indicator' questions for other guides to look at?

much love

vince

[ashton]

We can do indicator questions, Vince ;)

What's still active[<b]

I hear only a handful of remaining habits.

1. Subtle preference for certain backgrounds.</b>

You still occasionally think:

> "If only this background would change..."

You know it doesn't work, but the organism still does it.

That's completely normal.

I got half way through reading this and was thinking "I don't think that's a problem" lol. Then I saw how you finished.

Life continues to provide opportunities:

* someone insults you,
* you lose something valuable,
* you fall in love,
* someone dies,
* you succeed,
* you fail,
* you get sick,
* you feel lonely.

Each one reveals another conditioned pattern.

Not to eliminate it.

Simply to see it.

This is super funny. I had an interaction the other day. Didn't at all go as planned or as expected. I know in a lot of my posts I use anger just because it's an easy target. This was the first time really where someone's response just actually made me literally pissed and so many things.

It was interesting because it would make me want to do certain things, seek out certain things, whatever. And at first it's like, "what is going on". But even that, too, the wanting to seek certain remedies or dwell, even all of those are just conditioned things entering through that door. And even if it sparks actually doing things, those too, are just little events/guests coming through that same door. Even if you do it and it's followed by shame. That, too. Nothing is safe. So to speak. Nothing can hide. Like, yeah, it can hide. Maybe it will. But it'll probably at some point get noticed lol. If not today, if not tomorrow, probably some time. Maybe not at all. It felt like some really terrible shit, everything that ensued. And it really made me question who I am as a person. But even that... that all just came up on its own. It could've, not.

It's like even the thoughts that are like "planning", thinking, oh, maybe I will try to do this or that next time or be this way. That can all get seen too. It's weird cause it really reshapes a little about objectively bad events if you will, bad things people may do. Maybe even objectively bad thoughts you yourself may have. But at the end of the day, it all just sort of gets seen as ideals. Thats the only real way it can be seen it seems to me. It's like, you wish you could always live up to them, never do no wrong from an ideal perspective, but how could you? It's all just interesting really.

[vinceschubert]

Let’s run through these questions and see if there’s anywhere that needs further investigation.
Be relaxed. Don't answer from thought. Describe experience..

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

[ashton]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there is just different sensations / events. Some thoughts or feelings may evoke a sense of it viscerally but that's just a conditioned response/effect. No, there never was. The process was just misunderstood. What was always happening just wasn't seen correctly, as it actually is.

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

The illusion came in / sometimes still comes in when a sensation happens and it wasn't seen as a conditioned event. Not that you have to see that x led to y. But in the sense that, it just came in, all on its own without any approval or consent. Seems weird to say but tbh the illusion can still come in, itself, as an event as well. It's currently happening as I type this. It's more so really just little but persistent events of "doubt", weird bodily sensations, some fragmented or scattered awareness, etc that kind of just creates that weird illusion of a self.

How life has changed at all:
Like right now for example I feel quite a bit of doubt, quite a bit of insecurity, etc. It doesn't feel pleasant. At the same time, it also feels a little destabilizing just due to the content of thoughts occuring being so all over the board. But that is what there is. Mainly scatter brain. And that is mainly what is unpleasant. Its not even a matter of like, "THATS FINE". Its more just like, thats what is just there. Like a, just accept that thats what ya got. Thats whats been dealt.

Whereas in the past, I never would have reached that conclusion because ultimately you think that what has been dealt can be changed because you perceive the power to be in your hands.

Thoughts can still come up that might produce that idea. But thats not the same as genuinely 100% believing that to be the reality.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Depends when you ask me, lol. But overall it feels nice to have accomplished something you always wanted. It wasn't how I expected it to be/unfold.

Before I started this dialogue you could say that I figured it would be more so state-like. Even though I had occasionally heard people refer to it as not being a state, it's just that, that was never imaginable tbh.

The difference is really just greater acceptance. But acceptance borne from seeing events as just happenings on their own rather than something you are constantly in control of, creating, modifying, shaping your entire sensate experience.

Accepting the fact that what is there is all that is there. Not for the sake of accepting it and being indifferent but because you recognize that that's literally all there is, and that you're stuck with it. Always at that mercy is the best way to put it.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

Probably when Vince brought up helplessness as being an event itself. I had mentioned something along the lines of experience being shitty at a particular time, but how recognizing/going through that doesn't always make it better. He put a name on it and when he said it, it just made sense. Like seeing helplessness as an event as well, that basically allowed me to see that yeah, sometimes seeing shitty experience can be followed by relief. But other times it isn't. And it just kind of dawns on you how at the whim, how at the mercy of everything you are. (Always were)(applies to everything, nothing is excluded from that)

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

Decision is an event. So is intention, choice. They all enter the door. At one point they weren't there. Then they appear. They present themselves. Often times they are accompanied by thoughts or feelings happening in tandem/co-occuring. But that's all they are.

As for free will... it's just not really true, lol (at all). Feels weird to say that. Wish it weren't the case. Like I said, everything just presents itself at one point or another.
Ultimately, like hell even right now is a prime example. How are these words coming onto this page? It's just all events. Like there will be a pause when there is a gap and then a resurfacing. There's no control over the pauses. There's no control over when the right words pop into thought or action. It just ends up happening.

Same thing too, like I was riding my bike, looked at my phone, saw a text, read the words, immediate unpleasant physical sensations started happening, anger and frustration and feelings of lack came flooding in, thoughts started entering rapidly. Thoughts of gameplanning/plotting, recognition of seeing all of this happen. Then more thoughts of game planning and recognition. Then some possible words to choose to type. Then the intention and the carrying it out. It all just happens on its own. Things can happen one after the other, lightning fast, they can happen slowly, seemingly not at all, etc.

HELL this is hilarious - literally my phone kind of had a bricked out moment and I was SOOO frustrated. Thought I had lost all the writing I had just written. It's a prime example. All of that stress so to speak just happened all on its own. Thankfully it didn't get lost hahaha but life just ends up happening, you 'deal' with what is given.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Who's there to be responsible for it all...? Lol. There's literally nothing I can put a pin on. If you tried telling me my reactions or how I speak or relate to people, I'd say that's false. Obviously I think we can agree we all have ideals on what we want to happen, how we want things to go, what we want to experience, etc. But hell, even those are conditioned. And that is the closest I could get to. Is ideals. But yet even those are conditioned. Completely malleable without notice. There's just simply nothing. You can't say being a good person, living a certain way, seeing things clearly... none of it. It's nameless. There's nothing I could name that would fit.

6) Anything to add?
I'm glad you stuck with me for, I'd have to see... 4+ years of me being off and on Vince? You are a really great guy and I am so thankful to have crossed paths with you. Seriously, I can't thank you enough and it means the world. And I'd like to be able to provide the same level of servitude you did with me. It was impeccable, really. I'd be offline for 6mos, a year plus at a time. I'd somehow come back to this and next thing you know you'd message me within like a day. It's absurd. You're a devoted individual and it's just very commendable everything you do. You wouldn't know it but I was saving all of your emails in a folder I had named 'vince', specially for you. I probably had hundreds that were saved (and still are) in that folder from over the years. I had just started looking at a couple every so often a couple months before my most recent return. And they helped, a couple of them. At least a little bit. I saved the ones that seemed the most moving in an even more narrowed down folder called 'saved vince'. You're a special character vince... thank you for everything. I don't know that I could ever promise being able to come close to the level of commitment that you have towards the cause here and in your own independent endeavors you've created in regards to all of this throughout the years, but I would like to at least give it a shot and allow someone else to maybe be in tears as they write something like this one day.

Ash.

[ashton]

Man idk something just feels wrong

Experience just feels all edgy/weird buzzy... edgy sensations, filled with doubt, filled with sometimes clarity and other times lack of clarity. Filled with sadness. Filled with just feeling empty and alone and all sorts of ick.

It just feels like struggle.

Ik how stupid I probably sound being able to name all of my experience. It just doesn't accompany LITERALLY anything positive or neutral at all. It's like even the knowing that reassurance doesn't have to accompany it, that knowing is gone too. It's like I feel lost.

Idk its just so incredibly bizarre and I feel blindsided

[ashton]

Man idk something just feels wrong

Experience just feels all edgy/weird buzzy... edgy sensations, filled with doubt, filled with sometimes clarity and other times lack of clarity. Filled with sadness. Filled with just feeling empty and alone and all sorts of ick.

It just feels like struggle.

Ik how stupid I probably sound being able to name all of my experience. It just doesn't accompany LITERALLY anything positive or neutral at all. It's like even the knowing that reassurance doesn't have to accompany it, that knowing is gone too. It's like I feel lost.

Idk its just so incredibly bizarre and I feel blindsided

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ash, i have shown your thread to other guides at Liberation Unleashed for agreement that you have experienced an initial shift and recognized the illusory nature of a Self.
This marks the beginning of a 'journey' that will continue while curiosity is active.
To encourage and facilitate your discovery, I am inviting you to attend zoom meetings that happen 4 times each week where this (discovery) is experienced.

There is a meetup every Saturday at 10 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and one each Monday 6 am ( Sydney Australia time)
and each Wednesday at 6 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and every Friday 9 am (Sydney time) - never published.

You can check your local time here: https://www.worldtimebuddy.com

Please note that it's always the same time on the same link
Arriving late and leaving early is fine.

Email me & i’ll have your email address & i’ll join you to Substack where you’ll get notified of a story, investigation & a song every day. vinceschubert@gmail.com

vince

[vinceschubert]

Hi Ash, i have shown your thread to other guides at Liberation Unleashed for agreement that you have experienced an initial shift and recognized the illusory nature of a Self.
This marks the beginning of a 'journey' that will continue while curiosity is active.
To encourage and facilitate your discovery, I am inviting you to attend zoom meetings that happen 4 times each week where this (discovery) is experienced.

There is a meetup every Saturday at 10 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and one each Monday 6 am ( Sydney Australia time)
and each Wednesday at 6 pm (Sydney Australia time)
and every Friday 9 am (Sydney time) - never published.

You can check your local time here: https://www.worldtimebuddy.com

Please note that it's always the same time on the same link
Arriving late and leaving early is fine.

Email me & i’ll have your email address & i’ll join you to Substack where you’ll get notified of a story, investigation & a song every day. vinceschubert@gmail.com

Man idk something just feels wrong

Experience just feels all edgy/weird buzzy... edgy sensations, filled with doubt, filled with sometimes clarity and other times lack of clarity. Filled with sadness. Filled with just feeling empty and alone and all sorts of ick.

It just feels like struggle.

Ok, what do you think it is trying to tell you?
Is it doubt?

vince

[ashton]

Man idk something just feels wrong

Experience just feels all edgy/weird buzzy... edgy sensations, filled with doubt, filled with sometimes clarity and other times lack of clarity. Filled with sadness. Filled with just feeling empty and alone and all sorts of ick.

It just feels like struggle.
Ok, what do you think it is trying to tell you?
Is it doubt?

Well, I think really, just how polar extreme experience can be. It was happening throughout yesterday afternoon/evening. And it wasn't accompanied by acceptance like anyone would want there to be. Maybe tbh, sort of like how hopelessness can sometimes come up but doesn't guarantee relief, in the same way it was trying to show me that even when experience is a struggle and it's seen that way, that acceptance isn't a guarantee either.

I'm not sure if it was more of a holding on kind of feeling. I think it was. Like just a clinging towards wanting acceptance to be a guarantee. To be the direction of movement so to speak. But even that, too, is just not a guarantee. I think some of the struggle was added due to that.

Sort of the same as hopelessness/wanting relief accompanying it

But different. I'd call it more like seeing struggle as the given that it is and expecting some form of acceptance toward it as always accompanying it. And that just isn't the case. I just didn't see that in the moment, but upon reflection it seems pretty clear as day, lol.

[vinceschubert]

I think you've uncovered something very subtle.

Before, the hidden expectation was:

> "If I can just see clearly, the suffering will soften."

Now you've found an even deeper one:

> "If suffering is seen clearly, acceptance should accompany it."

And... it doesn't have to.

That's the important part.

Sometimes there's struggle.

Sometimes there's struggle and acceptance.

Sometimes there's struggle and resistance.

Sometimes there's struggle about the lack of acceptance.

None of those combinations are guaranteed.

That's a huge recognition because it removes another subtle prescription.

It isn't:

> "Suffering → Acceptance."

It's:

> "Suffering → ...who knows?"

Acceptance is just another guest through the door.

Just like resistance.

Just like hopelessness.

Just like relief.

What I also noticed is that you're becoming very good at seeing the hidden expectation, rather than just the obvious emotion.

Yesterday wasn't just painful.

It was painful because there was an unexamined assumption:

> "Acceptance should be here by now."

When that assumption became visible, something relaxed—not necessarily the suffering itself, but the extra layer built on top of it.

I actually think that's the pattern you've been discovering over and over:

* Noticing doesn't guarantee relief.
* Helplessness doesn't guarantee reassurance.
* Clarity doesn't guarantee peace.
* Resistance doesn't guarantee inaction.
* Acceptance doesn't guarantee itself.

Experience isn't following rules.

That's why you've gradually stopped trying to derive formulas from it.

And perhaps that's the quietest shift of all.

Instead of asking,

> "What's the correct next state?"

you're increasingly asking,

> "What's actually here?"

Those are very different investigations. The second one never needs reality to cooperate.

vince