Help seeing through the separate self

[Noro]

Dear Ellie,

I am struggling with my hormones and my mood going up and down very quickly. I can feel rage and then tears and then a few minutes later I feel fine again. It is a bit of a roller coaster. It isn't always something that has happened which triggers it. I can just sit in the sensations sometimes but then thoughts will come up - I don't want to do this, I don't want to be here and I just want to run away. Thoughts that it just isn’t possible for me to awaken when I am like this.

You are totally on the right track Ellie, it really is being with what is, all the while maintaining a space within of radical compassion and gentleness for everything that arises. If thoughts are arising, then allow the thoughts to be :

I don't want to do this, I don't want to be here and I just want to run away. Thoughts that it just isn’t possible for me to awaken when I am like this.

All thoughts are welcome. Pick one thought and put your full attention on the thought. Try and find the substance of the thought, try and hold on to the thought. How long can you hold on to one thought?
Watch it slip away and then ask "What will be the next thought" and wait attentively for that next thought to arise.

What happens when you actively invite a thought to appear?
Is there a gap of silence when you can see the thinking mechanism go off-line?
Can you predict what the next thought will be?
Is there an "I" that can awaken? Where can such an "I" be located?
"I" is an appearance, sensations are an appearance, all coming and going like waves in the ocean.

Awakening doesn't happen to an "I", awakening doesn't happen to appearances of thought or sensation, awakening is what happens when all the activity attributed to an "I" is seen as an appearance, as waves in the ocean. Sometimes there is identification with a wave, and that too is part of the one movement of existence.

Sometimes I can feel like I am just experiencing these sensations for hours or days at a time which can get overwhelming but I know in a day or so everything will even out and it will be okay again.

Good, can you see the flow of thoughts in this one sentence?

Here is a question:
Ask: How are these thoughts known? And then, relax into the stillness of the space from which the question arose.

[aldertree]

Hello again,

it really is being with what is, all the while maintaining a space within of radical compassion and gentleness

Yes I love this, it's important but hard to be compassionate with yourself sometimes! I read somewhere imagine if thoughts were another person following you around saying negative things all the time. You wouldn't want to be with them for long!

All thoughts are welcome. Pick one thought and put your full attention on the thought. Try and find the substance of the thought, try and hold on to the thought. How long can you hold on to one thought?
Watch it slip away and then ask "What will be the next thought" and wait attentively for that next thought to arise.

I haven't tried this before, I have always been putting my focus on the sensations. A thought comes up - I don't want to be here! What is the substance to this thought? Nothing! I start to tear up - how can I be kept prisoner by nothing? Oh that's a thought! What is the substance of that thought - nothing! Wow this is amazing, it's all nothing! Another thought. I can't hold onto nothing. The thoughts just slip away.

What happens when you actively invite a thought to appear?
Is there a gap of silence when you can see the thinking mechanism go off-line?
Can you predict what the next thought will be?

I welcome the thoughts, there is a gap whilst I wait. A thought - I wonder what the next thought will be. Wow I didn't predict that. That's another thought.

Is there an "I" that can awaken? Where can such an "I" be located?
"I" is an appearance, sensations are an appearance, all coming and going like waves in the ocean

.
No, there is no 'I'. When I look for an 'I' that thinks a thought it isn't there, you can't find what isn't there.

Sometimes I can feel like I am just experiencing these sensations for hours or days at a time which can get overwhelming but I know in a day or so everything will even out and it will be okay again.

Good, can you see the flow of thoughts in this one sentence?

Yes I can see the flow of thoughts, the flow of experience!

Here is a question:
Ask: How are these thoughts known? And then, relax into the stillness of the space from which the question arose.

I don't know how they are known, the thoughts have no substance, you can't grab hold of them. When I ask the question there is just a still open space. No answer comes.

Thank you so much for this, it seems to have reset my nervous system and a feeling of peace and relaxation has taken the place of the roller coaster of thoughts.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

it really is being with what is, all the while maintaining a space within of radical compassion and gentleness

Yes I love this, it's important but hard to be compassionate with yourself sometimes! I read somewhere imagine if thoughts were another person following you around saying negative things all the time. You wouldn't want to be with them for long!

Well, if it was another person and you found that you were tied at the hip as it were...(siamese twin) what would you do then. 'You' can want to not be with them for long, but is there a 'you' that can do anything about it? Again, can you control the thoughts that arise?

Radical compassion and gentleness comes from non resistance to the resistance of what is appearing. To get poetic, it is the stillness, the love, the awareness, the beingness to which all appearances arise. That is YOU.

Each time the space is given to what is arising in the form of some wanting or not wanting, for things to be other than they are, something shifts, something releases, like steam being released from a pressure cooker. But this compassionate space is a space of not wanting for things to be different, identification or association with what is arising (i.e.thoughts and sensations) are part of the appearances.

What is the substance to this thought? Nothing! I start to tear up - how can I be kept prisoner by nothing? Oh that's a thought! What is the substance of that thought - nothing! Wow this is amazing, it's all nothing! Another thought. I can't hold onto nothing. The thoughts just slip away.

Oh Ellie, this follows on beautifully. Yes nothing, meaning no thing. No thing means that nothing can be found. So hang on to that word 'nothing', because nothing is something that is not a thing!!! It cannot be found by thought. But close your eyes and feel into that nothing.....how does nothing feel? A hum of aliveness perhaps? of beingness? of knowingness of existence?

When I ask the question there is just a still open space. No answer comes.

YES!

Thank you so much for this, it seems to have reset my nervous system and a feeling of peace and relaxation has taken the place of the roller coaster of thoughts.

I am very happy to hear that. Your nervous system is 'unwinding'. It thought it was helping you by tensing up against life and creating a sense of 'you' as a controller, and now it is learning that that is no longer needed!

Here is a video for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
"Sometimes waking up goes back and forth a bit"

Keep me posted!

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Dear Rowena,

Well, if it was another person and you found that you were tied at the hip as it were...(siamese twin) what would you do then. 'You' can want to not be with them for long, but is there a 'you' that can do anything about it? Again, can you control the thoughts that arise?

Yes - there is nothing 'I' could do about it, there is no control over thoughts!

Each time the space is given to what is arising in the form of some wanting or not wanting, for things to be other than they are, something shifts, something releases, like steam being released from a pressure cooker. But this compassionate space is a space of not wanting for things to be different, identification or association with what is arising (i.e.thoughts and sensations) are part of the appearances.

Up until today there has been a lot of resistance to thoughts without realising it, this has made it much clearer. As you said - what is in the way, is the way!

Oh Ellie, this follows on beautifully. Yes nothing, meaning no thing. No thing means that nothing can be found. So hang on to that word 'nothing', because nothing is something that is not a thing!!! It cannot be found by thought. But close your eyes and feel into that nothing.....how does nothing feel? A hum of aliveness perhaps? of beingness? of knowingness of existence?

Yes, there is no-thing! The gap between thoughts is quite brief so it is hard to put into words exactly what it feels like but I would describe it as a being-ness. There is just a being-ness of here and a subtle vibration.

Here is a video for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
"Sometimes waking up goes back and forth a bit"

Thanks for this, there is definitely a lot of going back and forth, like the ocean!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

I was happy to read your last reply.

Keep tuning in to that ‘ocean’ of beingness and subtle vibration.

Keep me posted!

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I have had a bit of a busy morning. It is my oldest daughter's birthday today and my younger daughter has decided not to talk to us (she was a bit angry last night so I think it is to do with that). We had a bit of a tense morning with my husband losing his temper! As I was driving to school I was thinking - why does he have to lose his temper? I looked at the thought and couldn't find any substance to it, it is no-thing, and after it seemed silly to be so upset by it.

After I had dropped her off at school, I remembered your phrase - 'what is in the way is the way' and I could see that this was an opportunity to address some reactivity so I used the self-guided enquiry to the 4th and 5th fetters you pointed me towards on the Simply the Seen website.

I realised afterwards I was more cross at my husband losing his temper than my daughter so I investigated the phrase "he doesn't stay calm". I stayed with the raw sensations - tightening in the throat, face getting hot, heart beating faster and stayed there for a while. Then when looking for the button or the self pressing the button, it couldn't be found. It just all happened so quickly!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hello Ellie,

It is wonderful to get your update and see the clarity unfold for regarding how to work with reactivity.

I realised afterwards I was more cross at my husband losing his temper than my daughter so I investigated the phrase "he doesn't stay calm". I stayed with the raw sensations - tightening in the throat, face getting hot, heart beating faster and stayed there for a while. Then when looking for the button or the self pressing the button, it couldn't be found. It just all happened so quickly!

It is wonderful to get your update and see the clarity unfold for regarding how to work with reactivity.

I am thinking that it would be a good idea to have another look at some first fetter questions. Since the LU forum is based on seeing through the self-illusion (first fetter), it is important that we revisit this from time to time. Our inquiry will not come to an end until there is complete clarity about this self-illusion, and also, rest assured that I will be here to continue to be of support as long as you feel it is needed.

Is there a separate self of any sort, whether permanent, impermanent, empirical or otherwise? Yes/No?

If the answer to the above is 'No', then what is your direct experience now that you realise this?

And as you go through your day, to what degree does the thought or notion of a “self” arise that feels like it relates to an entity?

Has there been a shift at some point regarding the self-illusion and if so what was that like and how has it affected everyday life?

What in particular made the self-view drop, or made it clear that the ‘self’ is illusory?

In experience, does ‘self’ decide, intend, choose or control any events in life? Does ‘self’ make anything happen?


Again, answer from your direct experience. Using language like "I think, I feel, etc." is not direct, it shows that there is not a clear seeing, and that is absolutely fine, any doubt is fine, and we can continue to investigate together.


Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Dear Rowena,

Our inquiry will not come to an end until there is complete clarity about this self-illusion, and also, rest assured that I will be here to continue to be of support as long as you feel it is needed.

Thank you so much!

Is there a separate self of any sort, whether permanent, impermanent, empirical or otherwise? Yes/No?

No

If the answer to the above is 'No', then what is your direct experience now that you realise this?

That there isnt a self to be found that is in control of anything. Thoughts, emotions, sensations all come and go without any control.

And as you go through your day, to what degree does the thought or notion of a “self” arise that feels like it relates to an entity?

This varies depending on my emotional state. Sometimes the thought of a self doesn't arise at all. Other times it is quite actively felt.

Has there been a shift at some point regarding the self-illusion and if so what was that like and how has it affected everyday life?

Yes, as I said above when I am emotionally stable life just flows. Things just come and go.

What in particular made the self-view drop, or made it clear that the ‘self’ is illusory?

The direct pointing method of actually looking for the self and not finding it and realising that there is no control over anything.

In experience, does ‘self’ decide, intend, choose or control any events in life? Does ‘self’ make anything happen?

No.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

And as you go through your day, to what degree does the thought or notion of a “self” arise that feels like it relates to an entity?

This varies depending on my emotional state. Sometimes the thought of a self doesn't arise at all. Other times it is quite actively felt.

Please could you say a bit more about what it is you are experiencing when you say that it is quite actively felt? What is the 'it' that you are referring to? What do you find?

What in particular made the self-view drop, or made it clear that the ‘self’ is illusory?

The direct pointing method of actually looking for the self and not finding it and realising that there is no control over anything.

And when you realize that there is no control over anything, what is the response to this realization?
How does it feel to know there is no one in charge? What body sensations arise?

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Good morning Rowena!

And as you go through your day, to what degree does the thought or notion of a “self” arise that feels like it relates to an entity?
This varies depending on my emotional state. Sometimes the thought of a self doesn't arise at all. Other times it is quite actively felt.

Please could you say a bit more about what it is you are experiencing when you say that it is quite actively felt? What is the 'it' that you are referring to? What do you find?

When my mood is low I spend a lot of time in thought, thoughts about an I pop up, such as "I don't want to be here", "I ruined this", "it is my fault". But when "I" sit down and try to find the "I" that is being referred to there is just a no-thing to be found! It is just a feeling that keeps popping up of its own free will.

What in particular made the self-view drop, or made it clear that the ‘self’ is illusory?
The direct pointing method of actually looking for the self and not finding it and realising that there is no control over anything.

And when you realize that there is no control over anything, what is the response to this realization?
How does it feel to know there is no one in charge? What body sensations arise?

It feels freeing in one way, there is an expansive feeling. But then when the "I" thoughts pop up which feel contracted and which there are no control over, this feels less freeing and peaceful. There is a resistance to these thoughts and sensations and "I" don't seem to be able to just go with them in the moment. It feels like "I" should make them go away but I know that there can't be resistance to what is happening as it is just what is happening!

Warmly,
Ellie

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I just wanted to check everything is okay as I haven't heard from you for a few days!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

That is strange, I don't know how that happened? I remember replying, but maybe I didn't press the submit button and deleted the page from Safari without checking! So, all is OK with me, and thanks for reaching out!

When my mood is low I spend a lot of time in thought, thoughts about an I pop up, such as "I don't want to be here", "I ruined this", "it is my fault". But when "I" sit down and try to find the "I" that is being referred to there is just a no-thing to be found! It is just a feeling that keeps popping up of its own free will.

Yes, the feelings arise but do feelings have free-will!!

I think it is helpful to have an understanding of how the system of incoming sensory data combined with interpretations by the mind works as the mind likes to know what's going on... so here goes, I will try and show how we are always responding to prior, unprocessed material.

1. When you were processing the situation with your sister, the original reaction was one that was interpreted as irritation or anger together with a corresponding thought that she had done something to you.

2. When you went in to explore the sensory data you found that the anger was a response to a deeper desire for her to have asked you before-hand (included you) regarding her thoughts/actions. Because she didn't do that there was sadness that "She didn't......."

3. Now, if we explore deeper, you will probably find that the sadness stems from some systematic belief that people "never think about me", or. "I don't count" etc. those are just examples btw, your system is a storage for all the prior 'knocks' from life that have not been able to be fully processed, and that is why the feelings are so powerful in convincing us that outside life is happening to us and we dont like it. And, thoughts agree with that!! In fact it is thoughts that create unclear seeing of the deeper patterns since they interpret what's going on in the moment, but based on past experience. So it is an endless looping of similar conclusions about life.

Please let me know if this is helpful.

It feels freeing in one way, there is an expansive feeling. But then when the "I" thoughts pop up which feel contracted and which there are no control over, this feels less freeing and peaceful. There is a resistance to these thoughts and sensations and "I" don't seem to be able to just go with them in the moment. It feels like "I" should make them go away but I know that there can't be resistance to what is happening as it is just what is happening!

Yes, you are back in the to and fro! like a little boat on the water navigating the wind and the waves. Isn't it nice when there are no waves!!

Resistance is another layer. It is a word for "I don't like this" ..... So it is like a double whammy of moving away from what is happening. Say you have sensations in the body, or a thought about the sensations about feeling irritated. Now, there is a reaction against feeling irritated "I shouldn't feel irritated." So there is an adding on to the experience.
Can you see how this works?

You say you "know that there c'ant be resistance to what is happening as it is just what is happening" YES and it is bringing something forward for 'you' to inquire into.

Is there actually a 'you' that can do inquiry? Something separate that inquires?

If no separate "I" can be found as a doer or inquirer, then for simplicity we can say that 'inquiring is happening' and no 'one' is doing it!! And, we can also calm the mind about there being no inquirer so that it can understand that a new way of processing is now being established to update the old way of processing data. So now, data is going to be explored in more detail as to what is actually going on when some kind of reactivity arises.

Would you like to find something over the weekend where there was resistance to what was arising and make a list that itemizes the steps backward through interpretation > body sensation > interpretation > body sensation and see how far you can go with that?

If it is confusing, then simply write about some event that happened and we can deconstruct together.

The goal is not to get rid of anything, it is simply to see how all this processing works.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

I'm glad to hear that!

Please let me know if this is helpful.

Yes that is very helpful. I had some CBT sessions last year and I spent quite a bit of time looking at my core beliefs and this is very similar!

Can you see how this works?

Yes! Resistance is adding another layer onto of the original sensations and thoughts.

Is there actually a 'you' that can do inquiry? Something separate that inquires?

No, there is just inquiry happening!

Would you like to find something over the weekend where there was resistance to what was arising and make a list that itemizes the steps backward through interpretation > body sensation > interpretation > body sensation and see how far you can go with that?

Yes that sounds good, I will have a go at this when something comes up.

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi again Ellie,

Great! I look forward to hearing from you.

Have a great weekend!

Warmly,

Rowena

[Noro]

Here is a thought to consider:

"Anger is not an emotion but a reaction."

x R