Help seeing through the separate self

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

It feels freeing but this isn't a body response, so like an expansion in the chest and heart area.

That's wonderful!


TIME EXERCISE
Time is an experience, it is not fundamental.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

Take a few deep breaths to relax and then look in direct experience and answer the following according to your actual findings, NOT thoughts about your findings:

Is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along a line of time?

An experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or simply thoughts about ‘time’?

Warm wishes,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Wow this one has really blown my mind!

Is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along a line of time?

No

An experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No I can only experience this moment.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

It isn't moving, it is always the present moment!

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

This made me laugh, no it never begins or ends, it is always this present moment!

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Forever, or as long as this body is experiencing it. This made me feel a still tightness in the throat.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

It doesn't start or end, it is always here.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

Now can never become the past, because it is always now.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It is a thought or a memory (I'm not sure what the difference is - I think a thought can be about anything whereas a memory is a thought about something which actually took place.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or simply thoughts about ‘time’?

There is no direct experience of time, we can only experience the now. The past is memories and the future is thoughts. That is quite a beautiful and humbling realisation!

Warmly,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Wow this one has really blown my mind!

. :-) <3


How long does the ‘now’ last?

Forever, or as long as this body is experiencing it. This made me feel a still tightness in the throat.

Love that you noticed the sensation in the throat!


What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It is a thought or a memory (I'm not sure what the difference is - I think a thought can be about anything whereas a memory is a thought about something which actually took place.

We will look at memory next!

There is no direct experience of time, we can only experience the now. The past is memories and the future is thoughts. That is quite a beautiful and humbling realisation!

Beautiful Ellie.


MEMORY CONTEMPLATION
Almost everybody takes a memory about a past event as an actuality; that it actually happened in the way we've been told (i.e. history) or in the way we "remember" a past event. This exercise is not to discount memory, it is pointing to what is actually happening in our direct experience when a memory arises.

What is a memory? We can say it is a thought (and this includes mental images) that seems to refer to a narrative about the past and which may or may not evoke feelings/sensations in the body.

Sit down, take a few breaths to relax and then bring to mind a recent "event". Choose something simple, it could have happened 5 minutes ago as you remember what you were doing before you sat down to do this exercise.

Just let a "memory" be there, and look at it, simply, in your direct experience. And remember, you don't have to know, or come up with some explanation as you answer the questions!!

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is the memory ‘made of’ and please do not give me a conceptual response.... What is actually happening in your direct experience?

Now, think of a flying pink elephant flying across the room, let that image go, and now return to the memory thought.

Without a thought to interpret, what is the actual difference between those two thoughts?

Is there a difference, other than the content?

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Does it require further thought to affirm the apparent "reality" of the memory thought

Now, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that might happen?

What is this information based on?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

Let me know how you get on.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Good morning,

Here is what I found:

What is the memory ‘made of’ and please do not give me a conceptual response.... What is actually happening in your direct experience?

The memory is made up of thoughts and mental images. There was also some body sensations.

Now, think of a flying pink elephant flying across the room, let that image go, and now return to the memory thought.

Without a thought to interpret, what is the actual difference between those two thoughts?
Is there a difference, other than the content?

The only difference is the lack of body sensations.

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

There maybe photos of an event that took place, or a mark on the body from something that happened. Other people would be able to recall the same memory (although the exact details may differ!).

Does it require further thought to affirm the apparent "reality" of the memory thought?

I'm not sure.

Now, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

The same - thoughts and mental images.

What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

There maybe body sensations if it is something you are looking forward to or something you are dreading.

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that might happen?

Hmmm, this is tricky! Because I am making a prediction about what might happen, it isn't something that has already happened or just a general thought about something. But there is no evidence in DE that a future thought is about something that might happen, it is just a thought.

What is this information based on?

Life experience - for example I know I will have to pick my daughter up later, my husband will come home and we will eat dinner together.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?

I know that one has happened already and the other is just a prediction but they are just thoughts and mental images.

If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

There maybe 'evidence' that past events have happened, but not always. If I don't take a photo for example, I don't know how I know if it really happened. This is a bit confusing!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that might happen?

Hmmm, this is tricky! Because I am making a prediction about what might happen, it isn't something that has already happened or just a general thought about something. But there is no evidence in DE that a future thought is about something that might happen, it is just a thought.

Yes! :)

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?

I know that one has happened already and the other is just a prediction but they are just thoughts and mental images.

In your direct experience, can you experience this 'knowing" as other than a thought saying "I know this has happened already." ? I understand there may also be body sensations present, but can a body sensation by itself know anything?


If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?
There maybe 'evidence' that past events have happened, but not always. If I don't take a photo for example, I don't know how I know if it really happened. This is a bit confusing!

OK, let's 'unpack' evidence in direct experience concerning an experience interpreted as 'evidence', i.e. a photo.
Look at the senses in operation here: A photo = in direct experience that is simply seeing; there is no photo to be found in the visual field. It requires a thought 'photo'. And then there is mental activity i.e. simply thinking happening. Thought content will be many thoughts about interpreting visual images and further thoughts ending up with a thought "that happened!"

Can you see direct experiencing at work here?


Here is a little meditation on the visual field.


MEDITATION ON VISUAL FIELD - WITH A PHOTO!

Have ready 1. a random photo of something you are neutral about (it could also be a picture in a book.)
And 2. also have ready a family photo and place them both on the table nearby.

Part 1.
Sit quietly, take a few deep breaths, look around you and take in the visual field (the world around you).
Ask yourself: "What do I see in front of my face" and let any thoughts/labels be there..
Now, let go of all thoughts and labels and keep looking out at the visual field,

Where were you getting the 'information' about a world?

Was it in the seen?
Are there actual objects out there? Yes/No
If yes, how do you know?

Part 2.
Place the neutral photo or picture on the table in front of you
Observe the photo with a soft gaze, notice any tendency for thoughts to arise and let them go.
Now, widen your gaze to include not only the photo in front of you but the whole visual field.
Experience your direct experience of the full visual field.
Without thought, please state simply what is seen in your direct experience.

Are there actual objects (i.e. photo) out there? Yes/No
If yes, how do you know?

Part 3.
Now go through the same steps as above with the family photo.
If thoughts arise, notice: thinking happening.
If sensations arise, notice: sensations happening.
Without thought, please state simply what is seen in your direct experience

Are there actual objects (family photo) out there? Yes/No
If yes, how do you know?


Let me know how you get on.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Thanks for your reply! Here are my thoughts:

In your direct experience, can you experience this 'knowing" as other than a thought saying "I know this has happened already." ? I understand there may also be body sensations present, but can a body sensation by itself know anything?

No, it is only a thought!

OK, let's 'unpack' evidence in direct experience concerning an experience interpreted as 'evidence', i.e. a photo.
Look at the senses in operation here: A photo = in direct experience that is simply seeing; there is no photo to be found in the visual field. It requires a thought 'photo'. And then there is mental activity i.e. simply thinking happening. Thought content will be many thoughts about interpreting visual images and further thoughts ending up with a thought "that happened!"

Can you see direct experiencing at work here?

Yes - just lots of thoughts happening.

Part 1 - visual field

Where were you getting the 'information' about a world?
Was it in the seen?
Are there actual objects out there? Yes/No
If yes, how do you know?

The information is coming from what I see. I can see 'objects' yes. I know they are objects as I can touch them. But in the visual field it is just light and colour.

Part 2 - neutral photo

Are there actual objects (i.e. photo) out there? Yes/No
If yes, how do you know?

Yes there are objects, I can see and touch them. But in the visual field there is just colour and light, there is no difference between the photo and all the other objects in the room.

Part 3 - family photo

Are there actual objects (family photo) out there? Yes/No
If yes, how do you know?

Yes there are objects out there but again I would only know that if I touched them. If I am just looking there is just colour, light and shape.

Warmly,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi again,

Are there actual objects (family photo) out there? Yes/No
If yes, how do you know?

Yes there are objects out there but again I would only know that if I touched them. If I am just looking there is just colour, light and shape.

OK, lets keep to direct experience here: You talk about touching the objects provides a 'knowing' of them:
The sense of touch includes Extrinsic Touch i.e. perception of the external environment (Cutaneous), as well as
Intrinsic Touch (Proprioception), body sensations, feelings etc.

So by the same deduction: Can you actually 'know' anything through touching it?

Can you see that from the perspective of direct experience of each of the sense fields, the raw data is absolutely minimal.
None of the sense fields actually know anything! Only in the 'field' of thinking, and this 'knowing' arises through interpretation by mental activity i.e. the content of thoughts! And a thought says "I know!"

How is this all landing with you?
If you let go of listening to thoughts, what is your felt sensation when you experience life directly?
Please share

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hello!

Can you actually 'know' anything through touching it?

How is this all landing with you?
If you let go of listening to thoughts, what is your felt sensation when you experience life directly?
Please share

I suppose there are two types of 'knowing'. There is the thought 'I know', such as I know this is a photo of me and something that happened to me. And then there is the pure 'knowing' of experience. If I hear a bird, the sensation of sound is known in my awareness. So when I touch something there is a knowing of texture, pressure etc. When I look at something there is a knowing of colour and shape. But other than that in direct experience nothing else is known - only the five senses! Anything else is just an interpretation of the brain.

If I look at something and say I' know that feels hard', that isn't direct experience. It isn't until I touch it that I have the direct experience or knowing of texture. The mind is just so quick to jump in and label everything!

Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hello,

I suppose there are two types of 'knowing'. There is the thought 'I know', such as I know this is a photo of me and something that happened to me. And then there is the pure 'knowing' of experience.

Yes, beautifully said. And we can add a third type of knowing: Intuitive knowing.

If I hear a bird, the sensation of sound is known in my awareness. So when I touch something there is a knowing of texture, pressure etc. When I look at something there is a knowing of colour and shape. But other than that in direct experience nothing else is known - only the five senses! Anything else is just an interpretation of the brain.

Yes!

If I look at something and say I' know that feels hard', that isn't direct experience. It isn't until I touch it that I have the direct experience or knowing of texture. The mind is just so quick to jump in and label everything!

Yes, it is. Sometimes I think it's like training an unruly dog to walk to heel. When they walk to heel, it is like the ease of being with direct experience. When they run off, there's no knowing when they will come back!! That's just my analogy!!


INTRODUCTORY BODY MEDITATION
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations inside and outside of the body, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Let me know how it goes.

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Good evening

I have had a good look at this, this evening but would like to spend a bit more time with it tomorrow as suggested. However I just wanted to reply with my initial findings!

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, in actual experience the body is formless and weightless.

Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No boundary could be found, there was a slight pressure and tingling/vibrating sensation but not actual boundary could be found.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?

This is a bit more difficult, there were inside body sensations such as the heart beating, breathing etc and there was an awareness that this was inside. There were sounds which I had an awareness as being outside but the sensations in themselves were just sound and vibration.

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

I'm not so sure about this and want to spend a bit more time on it but I'm not sure where to look!
The label 'body' refers to the physiological human body which contains our brain, heart and organs. The actual experience of the body is just sensations and thoughts.

I had a deep relaxation when doing this, the body seemed to melt away and there was a sensation of floating and sinking at the same time. I realised I used to have this a lot when laying in bed as a child and it hasn't happened for years.

Warmly,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Just replying quickly to you on my phone and the quote function isn’t working:

“I'm not so sure about this and want to spend a bit more time on it but I'm not sure where to look!
The label 'body' refers to the physiological human body which contains our brain, heart and organs. The actual experience of the body is just sensations and thoughts.”

You are looking fine. Your actual experience is correct. The actual experience is sensations and experience of thinking. NOT the experience of thought content. Please look again, direct experience there are no labels at all!

How about having another go at it! Let everything you have learned or picked up along the way about a body and what it consists of go.

I’m glad you felt a deep relaxation, sleep well !

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Good morning Rowena!

I feel asleep thinking about this and woke up still thinking about this! I have spent a bit more time looking -

You are looking fine. Your actual experience is correct. The actual experience is sensations and experience of thinking. NOT the experience of thought content. Please look again, direct experience there are no labels at all!

How about having another go at it! Let everything you have learned or picked up along the way about a body and what it consists of go.

The label 'body' refers to the capacity for awareness. The body is the receiver of all sensations and thoughts.

The direct experience of the body is the receiving of all sensations - seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smell and thoughts coming and going. When there is total absorption in the sensations the body disappears!
Warm wishes,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

The label 'body' refers to the capacity for awareness. The body is the receiver of all sensations and thoughts.

The direct experience of the body is the receiving of all sensations - seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smell and thoughts coming and going. When there is total absorption in the sensations the body disappears!

Yes, all this is conceptually correct. But let's look at your last sentence. You write....
"When there is total absorption in the sensations, the body disappears."

In your direct experience: What is the actual experience of total absorption in the sensations?
What does absorption refer to, not as a concept but as an experience?
Absorption as a directive: some action needs to take place that correlates with how the word 'absorption' is received.
What is this action?
Where is it to be found?
Is there a separate independent agent acting on 'absorption'?
Where can you look for it in your immediate experience? (In thinking? sensations? seeing? hearing? smelling? tasting?)
Is there any 'one' doing this action, or is it simply a movement seen and experienced?

Now,
"The body disappears"
In your direct experience was an actual body ever experienced except as a thought?
Trace the simple thought back and it returns to 'simply thinking". Follow it forward and it goes into the conceptual mind and all the thoughts learned about a body. Where the idea of a body is taken literally as a given.

In your direct experience what does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?
What is the actual, immediate experience that refers to a label "body"?

Please answer each question in blue separately.

Let me know how this is landing with you, not intellectually, but experientially?

Warmly,

Rowena

[aldertree]

Hi Rowena,

Thanks for your reply, I don't know why but I am feeling a little frustrated (there is a feeling of tightness in the throat and chest) as I just don't think I am 'getting' this, but I will give it a go!

In your direct experience: What is the actual experience of total absorption in the sensations?
What does absorption refer to, not as a concept but as an experience?
Absorption as a directive: some action needs to take place that correlates with how the word 'absorption' is received.
What is this action?

There is no action, we are always 'absorbed' in all the senses, be it seeing, hearing or thought. You can't be absorbed or not absorbed.

Where is it to be found?

It can't be found anywhere, there is just sensations arising.

Is there a separate independent agent acting on 'absorption'?

No, you can't make it happen, it is just happening.

Where can you look for it in your immediate experience? (In thinking? sensations? seeing? hearing? smelling? tasting?)
Is there any 'one' doing this action, or is it simply a movement seen and experienced?

You can't look for it anywhere, it isn't a thing! When you put it like this it sounds ridiculous, thank you for your clear questioning to make me see this!

Now,
"The body disappears"
In your direct experience was an actual body ever experienced except as a thought?

I am finding this much more difficult and I am getting upset again thinking about it. The word 'body' is a label, but I don't know if I have ever experienced it as anything other than a label. I am thinking I must have but that is just a thought! When I touch 'my body' I feel sensations and think 'that is my body' but again that is just a label. How can there be awareness of anything without a body?

In your direct experience what does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?

I really don't know!

What is the actual, immediate experience that refers to a label "body"?

Again, I'm not sure, there are just sensations, but I don't know how there can be sensations if there isn't a body.

Thank you for your patience with this,
Ellie

[Noro]

Hi Ellie,

Where can you look for it in your immediate experience? (In thinking? sensations? seeing? hearing? smelling? tasting?)
Is there any 'one' doing this action, or is it simply a movement seen and experienced?

You can't look for it anywhere, it isn't a thing! When you put it like this it sounds ridiculous, thank you for your clear questioning to make me see this!

You are welcome, I am glad that landed! :)


Now, lets look at all this thinking going on!

"The body disappears"
In your direct experience was an actual body ever experienced except as a thought?

I am finding this much more difficult and I am getting upset again thinking about it. The word 'body' is a label, but I don't know if I have ever experienced it as anything other than a label. I am thinking I must have but that is just a thought! When I touch 'my body' I feel sensations and think 'that is my body' but again that is just a label. How can there be awareness of anything without a body?

"I am finding this much more difficult and I am getting upset again thinking about it." Let's look closely to your 'internal movements' being experienced' here: (i.e. thinking, feeling, sensations)

What does

"I am finding..."

refer to?:For me, the mental picture I get is of some kind of mental mechanism of 'mind' trying to land in a place that it recognizes as 'the known', as 'safety'. Like searching on a radio "trying to find" a radio station that is liked.

"....... much more difficult....

" points to some lack of ease or fluidity i.e. resistance
(how does that FEEL in the body?)

"...... and I am getting upset...."

let's rephrase this: "feelings/sensations labelled upset (thoughts) are happening.

....... again thinking about it...."

In your immediate and actual direct experience can you experience a two thoughts at the same time, or is that simply another thought saying "I am experiencing this thought again?"
Immediate refers here to no gap in time. This instant! Now !!!
Can you experience two thoughts at EXACTLY the same time. i.e. with not even a milli second apart?

" The word 'body' is a label, but I don't know if I have ever experienced it as anything other than a label."

Sit quietly with your eyes closed, take a few deep breaths to allow the body to relax.
Now drop all thoughts, including the label body, what remains? Stay with it, follow your direct immediate experience.
What sense field is being experienced? (seeing, hearing, sensations/feelings, taste, smell, thinking?)

"When I touch 'my body' I feel sensations and think 'that is my body' but again that is just a label."

Now, keeping eyes closed, place your hand on your thigh and drop the labels (hand on thigh) what's left?

"How can there be awareness of anything without a body?"

From your investigation above:
Can there be awareness of anything without a body?
Can seeing happen without a body?
Can hearing happen without a body?
Can choosing happen without a body?
Can anything happen without a body?


In your direct experience what does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to?

I really don't know!

Great answer!!


What is the actual, immediate experience that refers to a label "body"?

Again, I'm not sure, there are just sensations, but I don't know how there can be sensations if there isn't a body.

What do you find?

Warmly,

Rowena