Guidance greatly appreciated

[Elad]

Thoughts continue to say what they say... No need to debate with them - except if you really believe that is needed (in which case tell me).

Here is another excercise that work with this sense of self-as/in-body:


Find “me” in the body

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.
Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "insert name" is located.
Touch the exact location of "insert name".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your
body?

Where is it?

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "your self” (If any)?

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

And keep seeing how whatever experience is there, including belief that self is believed, just happens by itself. No one choosing what is clear and what is not, what evokes pleasure or calm and what evokes discomfort and restlessness...

[GoldenBoy]

Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your
body?

It wasn’t possible to find and feel it.

Where is it?

It is only in my thoughts about where it might be. I had a thought that something might be in my chest, but even touching my chest wasn’t touching a me.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

I found that I had an idea about where a me might be - which was my chest because feeling my face made it clear that there wasn’t a me in there.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "your self” (If any)?

I didn’t find any. Only ideas about where it might be if it was somewhere. My chest (which is weird because I have felt before like it would be in my head, if anywhere).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

When I turned my mind to where a me might be, I thought about in my chest but when I turned my attention to my chest (without touching), I had the feeling of being insubstantial, not invisible exactly but like a hologram.

When I then put my hand on my chest, I felt flesh similar to what I felt when I touched my face.

[Elad]

Great, very clear, no self is actually found, nothing that the sensations and even the beliefs belong to. Its all open process just being what it is.


Here is another pointer exercise, helping to look deeper at:


Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You
go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as
that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them
there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can
keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This
is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self -
just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.
This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the
end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking
about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Thought?

Is there an expectation that there be no sense of self? Does it need to disappear for it to be clear that there is no real self in control?

Does an optical illusion need to disappear for us to see it is an optical illusion?

[GoldenBoy]

Does the sense of self have a location?

I have the sense of it being inside me spanning the top of my chest up into my head.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

It feels more like a column of heightened awareness than a tangible thing with a shape.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

No - it feels more like a vantage point than anything else.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Not that I could notice.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Thought?

A combination of sensory information and thoughts - thoughts overlayed on top of the sensory information.

I

s there an expectation that there be no sense of self? Does it need to disappear for it to be clear that there is no real self in control

?

I have an expectation of a sudden experience of not finding anything there, but this is influenced by Buddhist books I have read in the past or talks I have listened to.

No, it doesn’t need to disappear, in the same way that thoughts can be there without being believed.

Does an optical illusion need to disappear for us to see it is an optical illusion?

Absolutely not. We can actually only see it if it is there.

[Elad]

I have an expectation of a sudden experience of not finding anything there

Everything you say sounds like you already are not finding a self... Or are you finding a self that you believe is real?

Is anything missing?

[GoldenBoy]

Everything you say sounds like you already are not finding a self... Or are you finding a self that you believe is real?

I don’t think I am finding a self that I believe is real, just a sense of a self that I believe is not real.

I think I could embed this further by continuing to practice with some of the exercises you have given me. Particularly the apple one and the touching one.

[Elad]

Everything you say sounds like you already are not finding a self... Or are you finding a self that you believe is real?

I don’t think I am finding a self that I believe is real, just a sense of a self that I believe is not real.

I think I could embed this further by continuing to practice with some of the exercises you have given me. Particularly the apple one and the touching one.

Good good.

Lets keep looking at this from more angles, and see what happens.

Lets see if unconscious places of identification and holding can get "evoked" and seen for what they are.

1)

Say out loud:

- I don't exist

- it is seen beyond doubt I don't exist

- it is just a belief that I don't exist

- it is just a belief that I do exist

Do each one several times, let go of all expectations of somethng particular to happen, or that it feels in a particular way. Just alllow space and openness after each "invocation". Write me what is experienced.


2)

Change letters

Throughout the day, when a thought about "I" comes up, replace the letter!

"I want to have this"
->
"O want to have this"

Can "O" want to have anything?
No. How then could "I" want to have anything?

"I don't like that"
->
"A don't like that"

Can "A" dislike anything?
No.
How come there is an idea that "I" can dislike anything?

Observe this throughout the day and report what comes up!

[GoldenBoy]

1)

Say out loud:

- I don't exist

- it is seen beyond doubt I don't exist

- it is just a belief that I don't exist

- it is just a belief that I do exist

Do each one several times, let go of all expectations of somethng particular to happen, or that it feels in a particular way. Just alllow space and openness after each "invocation". Write me what is experienced.

When I say “I don’t exist” I feel a sense of unity in my body. Like a distributed awareness across my torso. And I feel almost a sense of emptiness but like feeling transparent.

When I say “it is seen beyond doubt I don't exist” and “- it is just a belief that I don't exist” I feel more awareness of the muscles in my face and my mouth (like my teeth against my tongue, the position of my jaw). It feels more like I am “doing” something.

When I say “- it is just a belief that I do exist” I am still pretty in my head (primarily aware of the sensations in my head), but it’s a bit more relaxed.


Your second exercise I need to circle back to tomorrow as I didn’t manage to focus much on that today.

[Elad]

👍

[GoldenBoy]

Change letters

Throughout the day, when a thought about "I" comes up, replace the letter!

"I want to have this"
->
"O want to have this"

Can "O" want to have anything?
No. How then could "I" want to have anything?

"I don't like that"
->
"A don't like that"

Can "A" dislike anything?
No.
How come there is an idea that "I" can dislike anything?

Observe this throughout the day and report what comes up!

When I say “O” I feel as if the whole sentence is up in my mouth. By which I mean that the sensations there are my point of reference. But when I say “I”, I experience resonance/sensation along the column of awareness that I associate with my “self”. (Roughly my throat but extending a bit down into my chest and up into my head). More than anything this feels like a habit of referencing sensation there.

[Elad]

Got it.

What are the effects of this process so far?

How do you feel about it?

[GoldenBoy]

What are the effects of this process so far?

The most prominent thing is fully recognising that I am not the initiator of anything - thought or action. I have been feeling like I am watching myself go from thing to thing without quite knowing what is coming next. This feels pretty liberating as it loosens my feeling as though I need to be worrying in advance about how things might go. I just don’t know what will be going, let alone how it’s going to go.

The other thing I have noticed today after the “vowel” task was that - when I was getting frustrated about an errand running on longer than expected, I noticed myself making “I statements” - “e.g. I want to go and do X instead”. So I tried switching in “O” - “O want to go and do X instead”. Immediately the statement lost its resonance and I realised that I didn’t feel anywhere near as invested in the little melodrama of what I would rather be doing. It felt as though the habit of identification had been disrupted in the moment and so the suffering went out of it.

How do you feel about it?

I feel really encouraged to see some insight being integrated into my daily life. I still have a feeling that I want to reinforce my experiential understanding to guard against getting sucked into believing the illusion.

But I think I am also a bit caught up in Buddhist models of what seeing through self entails.

[Elad]

The most prominent thing is fully recognising that I am not the initiator of anything - thought or action. I have been feeling like I am watching myself go from thing to thing without quite knowing what is coming next. This feels pretty liberating as it loosens my feeling as though I need to be worrying in advance about how things might go. I just don’t know what will be going, let alone how it’s going to go.

Great! Yes, even playful dreaming, constructive planning and problem solvinging will naturally take place as part of life. Adding the belief in an I standing outside of it, responsible and threatened, just detracts from the real.

The other thing I have noticed today after the “vowel” task was that - when I was getting frustrated about an errand running on longer than expected, I noticed myself making “I statements” - “e.g. I want to go and do X instead”. So I tried switching in “O” - “O want to go and do X instead”. Immediately the statement lost its resonance and I realised that I didn’t feel anywhere near as invested in the little melodrama of what I would rather be doing. It felt as though the habit of identification had been disrupted in the moment and so the suffering went out of it.

Beautiful.

How do you feel about it?

I feel really encouraged to see some insight being integrated into my daily life. I still have a feeling that I want to reinforce my experiential understanding to guard against getting sucked into believing the illusion.

What thinks this and acts this way?


And what or where is the "I" that wants to reinforce something, that needs to be guarded from losing "it's" insight?


Remember, this is not an intellectual question or a question to answer from "what is already believed to be the case". Go to the core.

But I think I am also a bit caught up in Buddhist models of what seeing through self entails.

Who or what is caught up?

I experience resonance/sensation along the column of awareness that I associate with my “self”.

Is it clear that there is no "I" in that "column of awareness" ?

Also, can awareness be found separate from experience? Is there a "thing" called awareness?

(Watch out for answering philosopically rather then looking strictly at FRESH RAW DIRECT EXPERIENCE).


Exercise:

Listen to the following talk. As you listen your job is not to agree or disagree, get or not get it (although thoughts about agreeing and not agreeing, getting and not getting might happen - just thoughts!). "Your" job is only to listen and be open for the seeing/feeling of what actually happens and what actually is there while listening. I.e. what is in direct experience, what thoughts, what sensations, what experience. Write here what happens.

The talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2UnnObWkgw

[GoldenBoy]

What thinks this and acts this way?

And what or where is the "I" that wants to reinforce something, that needs to be guarded from losing "it's" insight?

“But I think I am also a bit caught up in Buddhist models of what seeing through self entails.”

Who or what is caught up?

A series of self-referential thoughts arising that are constructing a me that needs to “get it” - I.e. understand and do a good job of seeing through self.

“I experience resonance/sensation along the column of awareness that I associate with my “self”.”

Is it clear that there is no "I" in that "column of awareness" ?

if I think “I” and move my awareness to the feet or the fingertips then this experience of resonance is disrupted. So the point of reference can be replaced, which makes it feel less convincing.

But I don’t feel 100% certainty.

Also, can awareness be found separate from experience? Is there a "thing" called awareness?

I can’t seem to observe awareness without also experiencing. And the experience is awareness of something - e.g. sounds, thoughts, touch.

Exercise:

Listen to the following talk. As you listen your job is not to agree or disagree, get or not get it (although thoughts about agreeing and not agreeing, getting and not getting might happen - just thoughts!). "Your" job is only to listen and be open for the seeing/feeling of what actually happens and what actually is there while listening. I.e. what is in direct experience, what thoughts, what sensations, what experience. Write here what happens.

The talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2UnnObWkgw

Mostly an experience of sensations of hearing and thoughts arising on the implications of what was being heard. The most notable thought - enlightenment/awakening can’t be a thing to be attained if there is no self to attain things.

[Elad]

A series of self-referential thoughts arising that are constructing a me that needs to “get it” - I.e. understand and do a good job of seeing through self.

Is there actually "a me" that is constructed from thought? Or can there only be thoughts found - including the thought that a me is constructed from thought?

“I experience resonance/sensation along the column of awareness that I associate with my “self”.”

Is it clear that there is no "I" in that "column of awareness" ?

if I think “I” and move my awareness to the feet or the fingertips then this experience of resonance is disrupted. So the point of reference can be replaced, which makes it feel less convincing.

Good

But I don’t feel 100% certainty.

So keep looking at this until you feel absolutely clear. Is this "column of awareness" a me that controls and does thing or not, yes or no?

NB: We can question everything forever philosophically. This process does not provide philosopical certainty. This is about looking at experience directly until experiential clarity dawns.

Also, can awareness be found separate from experience? Is there a "thing" called awareness?

I can’t seem to observe awareness without also experiencing. And the experience is awareness of something - e.g. sounds, thoughts, touch.

Again, you need to be whole-hearted and look until it is clear for you and then answer in a way that reflects clarity of experience. So look again until you don't need to put the word "seem" in your answer. "Seem" is a direct give away of being in a cognitive/analytic mode rather then describing lived experience.

Exercise:

Listen to the following talk. As you listen your job is not to agree or disagree, get or not get it (although thoughts about agreeing and not agreeing, getting and not getting might happen - just thoughts!). "Your" job is only to listen and be open for the seeing/feeling of what actually happens and what actually is there while listening. I.e. what is in direct experience, what thoughts, what sensations, what experience. Write here what happens.

The talk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2UnnObWkgw

Mostly an experience of sensations of hearing and thoughts arising on the implications of what was being heard. The most notable thought - enlightenment/awakening can’t be a thing to be attained if there is no self to attain things.

Right. How does it feel that no one can be enlightened or wake up and that awakening/clarity is not a thing?