Dissolving the concept of non-self into direct realisation

[infinicky]

Hey Rowena,

It's been a minute, but I've taken a good look at your pointers again. Thank you for your patience, it's been tough these last few weeks. A lot of suffering is coming up and "I've" been hard at work with inquiry. Exhaustion is catching up to me, but I've taken a day off today to unwind a bit.

So, for the questions:

"No, there’s just seeing the movement and feeling the movement (muscles tensing, slight movement of air). The connection is only imputed onto those."
Is there not also the felt internal body sensation as well as other sensations, (muscles tensing, slight movement of sensation of air) All combined under the label 'sensations.

Yes, there are also other sensations. It's difficult to really notice all of them if attention is directed to trying to find the hand and the connection to the visual field.

If I understand you correctly, there was no connection between feeling the sensation and seeing the colors and shapes in motion. You could see that it needed a thought "hand moving") in order to connect body sensations with the visual field.

Yes!

I wasn't totally sure about your answer, so just to check:
"The thought that there are sensations in the feet, so there must still be feet there beyond the image."
This is all thought right?
Is there any evidence in direct experience of the visual field and pure body sensations to indicate that there must be legs?

It was all thought, yes. There is no direct experience indicating that there must be legs, just the thought.


LOOKING OUT AT THE WORLD

In your direct experience, where were you getting the information about "a world"?

Was it from the visual field?
Are there actual objects out there?

No, the visual field has no inherent labels in it, only what's seen: colours and shapes. The labelling of objects comes after, and the labelling of "world" comes even separately from what's seen. It's purely a thought.

Is there actual distance? Yes/No

No

Is there any boundary or any distance between you (the observer) and the visual field?

No, only the imagined space between objects and "me". But there is no actual distance or boundary to perceive, only the thought of them.

Can a separate 'you' or 'see-er' be found?

No, although I'm noticing the "No" comes habitually instead of as a conclusion made right now as a result of looking. So, I'm looking more thoroughly now to see if a "me" is still unable to be found. There still is this tension that arises when faced with this question. When reading the question initially, there's an automatic "yes" arising in the mind. But then when investigated, there's nothing there. Nothing to point to that would be separate from experience itself.


THE WORLD LOOKING BACK AT ME!

Experience that 'you' are being observed and the chosen object is now looking back at you.

Is there any separate thing or separate "you" to be found?
Is there a boundary to be found between see-er and the seen with this flip?

The separate object and separate me have to be thought about to make it separate. There's nothing in direct experience that points to any separation, just the thought of it. That collection of colour and shape is the object, and this collection of sensations and experience is the separate me, which are all thoughts. So, no actual boundary either.

Is there an actual outside or inside that can be flipped around?

There is no outside and inside in direct experience, only the thought of it. It needs to be created by mind.

Briefly describe what was experienced, including paying attention to any body sensations.

It's funny, there was this immediate thought how strange it is to think that an object could be looking at me, and then the thought that it's equally strange to think that "I" am doing any of the looking. There is actually no difference to be found in direct experience: the object looking at me is not an experience, but a thought. The only experience comes from thinking about the object looking at me, and a bodily sensation of tightness arising in response.


With metta,

Nicky

[Noro]

Dear Nicky,

I am sorry that you've been experiencing a difficult time over the last few weeks. If there are any areas causing suffering that appear to be 'sticky', do feel free to share. Inquiry into suffering can be exhausting. Remember that suffering is resistance to what is, so it is pushing back on thoughts arising. The 'way in' is 'towards', and into the sensations of the body. The little quote I have for myself is" What's in the way, IS the way." AND it is exhausting. Ask yourself:

Can "I" allow this 'exhaustion' to be here?
Do "I" need to know what this suffering is about?
Can "I" allow thoughts about suffering to be there and be pointers into the body?
Can "I" be with this for as long as it takes without making is 'wrong?'

Can a separate 'you' or 'see-er' be found?

No, although I'm noticing the "No" comes habitually instead of as a conclusion made right now as a result of looking.

Isn't it funny how habitual patterns of answering take over here! I invite you to become curious about this... is there thought saying "oh, I'd better get those LU exercises done." or similar!! What if we changed the label of 'exercise' into 'meditations with responses?'!!

So, I'm looking more thoroughly now to see if a "me" is still unable to be found. There still is this tension that arises when faced with this question.

Well noted!
And what happens when you go into that tension? Where does it show up? Can you allow it to be there?
Does the tension belong to any one? Does it have anything to say?
Does it actually relate to a "me" or and "I", or is it more like some old pattern of responding to stimuli?

When reading the question initially, there's an automatic "yes" arising in the mind. But then when investigated, there's nothing there. Nothing to point to that would be separate from experience itself.

Great!


Briefly describe what was experienced, including paying attention to any body sensations.

It's funny, there was this immediate thought how strange it is to think that an object could be looking at me, and then the thought that it's equally strange to think that "I" am doing any of the looking. There is actually no difference to be found in direct experience: the object looking at me is not an experience, but a thought. The only experience comes from thinking about the object looking at me, and a bodily sensation of tightness arising in response.

Perfect!


MEDITATION - EMPTY OF "I" - No need to send answers to the questions back.

If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step towards your self, where would you go?

The fact that it can be seen that any thought is actually empty of an "I" doesn't stop identifying with that empty narrative.

Seeing that there is no inherent self doesn't eliminate suffering.
Can you go fully into the fear and sadness?
Drop any labels of even fear and sadness and let the sensations expand and do whatever they want. Just keep feeling, for however long it takes, set no time limits or goals for this.
Can you accept that these feelings could be with you for days, weeks, or longer?
Do these sensations give an impression of a me?
How do they do that without a thought?
Stay with the stories, allow them to express and then feel everything.

If the sense of self is created from habitual ideas and concepts combined with a feeling then we could call it a 'feeling tone' with a story, sensation and label together with story overlay.
Keep looking into this and stay there.
Look at the thoughts of story and what feeling they are pointing to.
In direct experience do we look at content of thoughts (story) or just thinking happening?
In direct experience do we look at sensations and label them or is it just sensations happing?


NATURE MEDITATION

Go outside into nature (or simply outside where you live) and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds, cars, people - all move all the time.

Then move the focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement, always. Only thoughts can seem to distract from this one movement, and actually, they too are part of that one movement.

Now close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Now open your eyes

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

Is witnessing part of the one movement, too?

Can an actual witness be found?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.


With love,

Rowena

[Noro]

Hello Nicky,

It has been a while since I sent you the last investigation, I hope you are doing OK.


Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Dear Rowena,

I felt very touched to read your message checking in with me. I've been quite overwhelmed and am taking some time to find balance again and am unable to commit to anything right now. I may answer your inquiries at spontaneous moments when I feel spacious enough, but can't handle the pressure of responding every day at this point.
Would that work for you, or would you rather agree on something else?

I hope you're well,

Nicky

[Noro]

Dear Nicky,

I totally understand where you are coming from and certainly don't want you to feel any pressure of responding when you don't feel up to it. Please know that from my own experience it is quite normal to feel overwhelmed and without the energy to keep going. This investigation can be disruptive to the old ways that we seemingly set up to manage 'life' and so it can feel a bit of a roller coaster at times.

While you are feeling like this, please be very gentle with yourself and allow all the thoughts and feelings to be present as they arise. The one thing I would urge you is to continue to LOOK at what is arising in your direct experience. You have already SEEN clearly that no independent, separate, self can be found, but that doesn't mean that feelings and emotions don't continue. The patterns that developed since childhood to 'manage' life continue, they don't disappear overnight. But the important thing to remember is that they don't belong to any 'one' even if it SEEMS like they do!

So welcome overwhelm to be here and then ask:
- What is this overwhelm? I can see it is a thought labelled overwhelm, but what how does this overwhelm feel in my body? Stay with that.
You could also ask - What is this overwhelm pattern protecting or defending?

Wishing you all the best, and I look forward to hearing from you when you feel up to it.

With love,

Rowena