Unclarity

[Rhapsody]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is basically really a thought-based illusion.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see where I am, what is happening right now and to clear up my current confusion. I don't really know what to add to this. I think I have reached the limits of trying to intellectually figuring this out, which I regrettably tried to do for too many years.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Clarity and guidance on whatever the guide deems necessary. To generally pinpoint where I might be and get help from there. I think I have reached the limit of intellectual understanding, which I for whatever reason apparently needed or wanted. It wasn't entirely useless, as things changed internally due to intellectual/self- inquiry breakthroughs.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Many years of seeking, meditation, self- inquiry. Awareness watching awareness and sjukan taxa type practice for the past few years.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Rhapsody]

Not that it matters, but autocorrect seems to have changed "shikantaza" to something weird :)

[ashton]

Hi rhapsody. My name is Ashton and I'll be your guide. You'll be my first but I think we'll figure it out together. You can call me Ash or Ashton. Whatever works. Lmk if rhapsody is fine. Apologies it took so long for you, hopefully you're still here! Lol.

Anyways, the way this is going to work is I am going to put things that you say in quotes by copying a sentence or paragraph of yours that strikes me by placing that copied text inside of the quote function up above this textbox. It'll appear as [ quote ] (copied text here) [ /quote ] except there won't be spaces. You'll do the same when answering my questions. Simple enough, right?!

Anyways, what you said here hit me and this will be the first thing we examine:

To see where I am, what is happening right now and to clear up my current confusion. I don't really know what to add to this. I think I have reached the limits of trying to intellectually figuring this out, which I regrettably tried to do for too many years.

You wrote that in May. So I'm not sure if you still have confusion. I want you to write "hello" or something back. Do that before reading anything else I am going to write below. SERIOUSLY! DO IT! hehehe.

Okay good, hopefully you did that and now you are about to read the rest of this. So you wrote "hello" or something similar. When you wrote that... was confusion there? Or was just writing there in your experience?
Even if you nodded your head about feeling confused before you wrote "hello". Maybe it was there before the writing of hello. But what was there when you were writing hello? Just writing? Writing and confusion?
Hell, what about now?

The point of all of this is radical honesty. If thought is there, you tell me. If uncertainty as to what you think is there, you tell me. If staring into blankness is there, you tell me.

So what is there? That was the 3rd question haha. So hopefully you might have 3 answers. But maybe not, I'll see where you are at.

Ash.

[Rhapsody]

Hello Ash,

rhapsody is fine. Thank you so much for taking me on.

No, there is no confusion when writing this. I've seen the body write, talk and do many different things perfectly (or not, haha), all by itself.

The confusion or uncertainty is about where I am at, what - if anything - I should do, how to proceed, if progress is even needed or this is it. I've been through many more or less profound changes/breakthroughs, lots have fallen away, but there is still seeking. Maybe this is it and the seeking is still there (has been for a few years now) because I am expecting something else than what is here now. No idea, but that's probably it. Could also be something I'm missing. Or maybe this neurological setup resists some final change. I have no idea, really. Even all this is just a bunch of thoughts that may or may not point to something real. I am here to humbly ask to help me clarify things.

R.

[ashton]

Hey rhapsody,

Thank you so much for taking me on.

You bet!

No, there is no confusion when writing this. I've seen the body write, talk and do many different things perfectly (or not, haha), all by itself.

Okay, good. By that, I don't mean that confusion is bad or shouldn't arise. I mean good in noticing that while writing, it sounds like you may have noticed that there was only writing as an experience? Would that be correct?

When I ask you to look at your experience and tell me what is presently there in your experience, I want to clarify: Tell me anything that isn't thought CONTENT.

Some examples) you can say that a memory popped up, or thought came up containing xyz, or awareness moved, or writing was there, running was there, anger arose, tensing happened in the skin, etc, etc.

But when I ask you something like "when you look at xyz experience" (in the past), I want you to give me your answer via memory, not thought.

The confusion or uncertainty is about where I am at, what - if anything - I should do, how to proceed, if progress is even needed or this is it. I've been through many more or less profound changes/breakthroughs, lots have fallen away, but there is still seeking.

How often is seeking there in your experience? I want you to take maybe a day to live life before answering this question. 24/7? Don't tell me from thought. Live life. See when it is there, how often, if it accompanies anything else, is random, anything about it. Again, from present experience and memory only.

I am expecting something else than what is here now.

Same as above. How often is expecting (pertaining to "something else to be there") in your experience? Does it accompany anything? Sometimes yes other times no? Never? Always? Does it come up randomly? Only tell me from present experience and/or memory. Again, you don't have to answer right away. I want you to actually come to whatever answer you come to through seeing its traits first hand.

Ash

[Rhapsody]

Hi!

it sounds like you may have noticed that there was only writing as an experience? Would that be correct?

Yes, absolutely.

But when I ask you something like "when you look at xyz experience" (in the past), I want you to give me your answer via memory, not thought.

Now this is confusing, haha. Memories are also thoughts, aren't they?

How often is seeking there in your experience? I want you to take maybe a day to live life before answering this question. 24/7? Don't tell me from thought. Live life. See when it is there, how often, if it accompanies anything else, is random, anything about it. Again, from present experience and memory only.

I've examined this many times but I don't want to leave any stones unturned so I have spent 24 hours with this. As expected, seeking is is there most obviously when there are thoughts about it. Maybe there's more, like a dissatisfaction and numbness? I don't care about much anymore, maybe except for my kids. I've learned not to trust thoughts, but some I do trust. Like the thought that something is missing. After all, thoughts also helped me along the way and got me here. At least played a practical role in all this.

Same as above. How often is expecting (pertaining to "something else to be there") in your experience? Does it accompany anything? Sometimes yes other times no? Never? Always? Does it come up randomly? Only tell me from present experience and/or memory. Again, you don't have to answer right away. I want you to actually come to whatever answer you come to through seeing its traits first hand.

The answer is the same. Thoughts are the engine here. Maybe this neutrality and me not caring about stuff anymore that thoughts about "why" get created. I am assuming that if I was "all the way in", I would not be dissatisfied with current state of things, I wouldn't wonder "what now?" or " how should I proceed?". The seeking would be gone.

R.

[ashton]

Now this is confusing, haha. Memories are also thoughts, aren't they?

We are going to do an exercise.

I want you to tell me how many silver cars you saw yesterday. But as an educated guess as quickly as you can. 0? 10? 20? 30? More? Just a guess. Instantly write down your rough estimate.

Okay good, you did that. You wrote your number. Now, as you go throughout the day, try to actually remember each instance you actually saw a silver car that same day. Notice how with time, your memory keeps popping up events that actually happened, instances where you actually saw a silver car. It might start out with only 1 via memory. Then maybe you remember a second. Maybe a third. But based on thought, 1-3 silver cars may be ludicrous. But then again, it is just thought.

Do you still view memory and thought as the same? If not... or even if so... notice how thought doesn't require truth, at all?

seeking is is there most obviously when there are thoughts about it.

Can you notice 'seeking' arise as a standalone event, even without thought? Does seeking ever just happen on its own? Or does it always have to be accompanied by thought? Hopefully the exercise above helped clear up any differences between thought and memory. If it has, make sure to keep your answers based on what you are currently experiencing/viewing and/or memory.

seeking is is there most obviously when there are thoughts about it. Maybe there's more, like a dissatisfaction and numbness?

Same thing. Don't ask me. Look. Is dissatisfaction and numbness always present when seeking is present? Or only sometimes? For fun, is there ever satisfaction while seeking is present?

After all, thoughts also helped me along the way and got me here. At least played a practical role in all this.

This is a thought. But you are correct. Sometimes thoughts are useful, other times not. But at the end of the day, they are all just thoughts. Yeah?

I am assuming that if I was "all the way in", I would not be dissatisfied with current state of things, I wouldn't wonder "what now?" or " how should I proceed?". The seeking would be gone.

Ahhhhhh. What is what you just said...?
Can you see?
And did that arise on its own?

Ash

[Rhapsody]

Hi Ash.

Do you still view memory and thought as the same? If not... or even if so... notice how thought doesn't require truth, at all?

I tried doing the exercise but despite driving in heavy traffic yesterday, I couldn't remember even one single silver car. So I did it with other things, that I could remember. I'm sorry, I'm not really convinced, but if you mean that memories are thoughts that have some loose connection with real events then I totally agree. Otherwise, thoughts indeed don't require any truth at all.

Can you notice 'seeking' arise as a standalone event, even without thought? Does seeking ever just happen on its own? Or does it always have to be accompanied by thought? Hopefully the exercise above helped clear up any differences between thought and memory. If it has, make sure to keep your answers based on what you are currently experiencing/viewing and/or memory.

Either way, I will make sure to answer from memory or current experience. Seeking arises even without thought. I observed it pretty close.today. I don't know how to describe it, it's like a movement towards something, a calling.

Is dissatisfaction and numbness always present when seeking is present? Or only sometimes? For fun, is there ever satisfaction while seeking is present?

Dissatisfaction, no. Numbness is present all the time, it seems like. Numbness or neutrality, something like that. No highs, no lows, everything is pretty even. Seeking and more positive feelings can co-exist, yes.

But at the end of the day, they are all just thoughts. Yeah?

Absolutely, yes.

Ahhhhhh. What is what you just said...?
Can you see?
And did that arise on its own?

No, what did you notice? Nothing special strikes me in what I wrote...
It arouse on its own, just like everything arises on its own. Those were thoughts, so yeah. This kind of thoughts arise often. They may be completely untrue, but it seems to be an expectation created by reading/listening to others. The end of seeking, you know. You see the truth and the seeking is supposed to stop. I've bumped into this notion so many times that I cannot disregard it as "just a thought".

R.

[ashton]

Good evening R.,

I tried doing the exercise but despite driving in heavy traffic yesterday, I couldn't remember even one single silver car ... Otherwise, thoughts indeed don't require any truth at all.

Perfect! You've seen directly how via thought, you *know* there *had* to have been a lot of silver cars. But yet memory didn't even recall a single one! Crazy, right?
The purpose of that exercise was to highlight the discrepancy between thought and memory. You clearly saw that they work on 2 fundamentally different levels. Good job.

Basically, when I ask you questions, I want you to utilize either what is presently happening as your answer or memory recall. You illustrated to me perfectly in the above example that ultimately, you saw a shit ton of silver cars. But if you told me that, that answer would have been from thought. But the important distinction was that you told me that via memory, you couldn't recall a single instance of witnessing a silver car! You did a fine job, be sure to keep your answers as coming from that place of memory recall instead of reasoning/thinking if that's an easier way to frame it.

Seeking arises even without thought. I observed it pretty close.today. I don't know how to describe it, it's like a movement towards something, a calling.

Nice. And when this happened, did it just happen on its own? Or was there a choice to seek? Was there a choice to stop seeking? Or did it stop on its own?

Did thought arise at any point? Before, during, and/or after the seeking?

The only correct answers are whatever happened in your experience, as it happened. So do tell, what happened?

Numbness is present all the time, it seems like. Numbness or neutrality, something like that. No highs, no lows, everything is pretty even. Seeking and more positive feelings can co-exist, yes.

All the time? Let's take a look at that. Have you had any instance where that wasn't the case? If nothing pops to mind... what about during sleeping? Sounds stupid, I know. Sounds like a reach. Do sometimes when you are sleeping, dreaming happens, and other times unconsciousness happens without any meta-awareness? In either of those instances, is numbness there too? Tell me from experience. Heck, name the last dream you can recall. If it takes a while to recall, so be it. Was numbness there too?

I am assuming that if I was "all the way in", I would not be dissatisfied with current state of things, I wouldn't wonder "what now?" or " how should I proceed?". The seeking would be gone.

It arouse on its own, just like everything arises on its own. Those were thoughts, so yeah. This kind of thoughts arise often. They may be completely untrue, but it seems to be an expectation created by reading/listening to others. The end of seeking, you know. You see the truth and the seeking is supposed to stop. I've bumped into this notion so many times that I cannot disregard it as "just a thought".

The seeking is supposed to stop

Is that just a...?

Ash

[Rhapsody]

Hi Ashton.

Nice. And when this happened, did it just happen on its own? Or was there a choice to seek? Was there a choice to stop seeking? Or did it stop on its own?

Did thought arise at any point? Before, during, and/or after the seeking?

It happens on its own. There is no choice. Thoughts around this arise, yes, like I previously mentioned. "What should I be doing?" "How do I proceed?" and so on. I am pretty tired by all this by now, but I do not wish to give it up, not that there is any other choice anyway.

All the time? Let's take a look at that. Have you had any instance where that wasn't the case? If nothing pops to mind... what about during sleeping? Sounds stupid, I know. Sounds like a reach. Do sometimes when you are sleeping, dreaming happens, and other times unconsciousness happens without any meta-awareness? In either of those instances, is numbness there too? Tell me from experience. Heck, name the last dream you can recall. If it takes a while to recall, so be it. Was numbness there too?

"Neutrality" is a much better word. No, it is not FULLY present 100% of the time, but most of the time. Sometimes even in dreams, but I remember dreams very rarely. When there is less of this neutrality there can be joy or sadness and other normal feelings, but kind of partially silenced, close to baseline. I used to be excited by things and activities that I gave up because they just seem pointless now. I used to like things, gadgets and stuff, I gave that up too. Even travelling doesn't excite me anymore. Please do not misunderstand. I dont meant all this in a negative, depressing way. I am fine. Fine in a neutral way. Still a cautious optimist :)

Is that just a...?

Haha, yes, of course. But it is a thought I fully trust. Not only due to many others expressing it in various ways, it also is logical. No need to seek if you already found, right? Also, it rings true intuitively.

R.

[ashton]

Hey R.,

It happens on its own. There is no choice. Thoughts around this arise, yes, like I previously mentioned. "What should I be doing?" "How do I proceed?" and so on.

Good noticing!

I am pretty tired by all this by now, but I do not wish to give it up, not that there is any other choice anyway.

There probably is a choice to give it up, but I recommend not because you are doing great! Keep persevering!

The seeking is supposed to stop

Is that just a...?

Haha, yes, of course. But it is a thought I fully trust. Not only due to many others expressing it in various ways, it also is logical. No need to seek if you already found, right? Also, it rings true intuitively.

Let's unpack.
1. Thought arose that "seeking is supposed to stop"
2. Trust arose towards that thought

That's what happened, yeah?

What if it went:
1. Thought arose that "seeking is supposed to stop"
2. Trust arose towards that thought
3. Noticing of chains 1 and 2 occurred

Or if it went:
1. Thought arose that "seeking is supposed to stop"
2. Distrust arose towards that thought
3. Noticing of chains of 1 and 2 occurred

Would either/all/none of those be a valid experience if that was what got experienced?

Don't answer from reasoning.
Reflect back.
Something like that happened as a series of events in a chain in your experience.
So that was what got experienced. How could it ever be an invalid experience if that is what actually took place?

-------

I'm sure from reading the above of what I just wrote is provoking certain experiences for you. Certain sensations are coming up. I don't know what they are. I can guess what they will be. I might be a really good guesser.

But those sensations that you are feeling as a result of reading the above, are EVEN THOSE just happening without any consent or permission?

Whatever is coming up RIGHT NOW for you... does it ask to arrive in your experience before it arrives? Or is it just arriving as we speak?

Look.
Follow it.
Observe it.
Tell me what is being experienced.
Tell me if it ever asked your permission.
Tell me if the sensations that are coming up right now could be any different than what they are. EVEN THAT THOUGHT that is sprouting out RIGHT NOW after having just read that. Did even that thought ask your permission? If trembling is arising now, what about that?

Ash.

[Rhapsody]

Hi Ash.

Would either/all/none of those be a valid experience if that was what got experienced?

How could it ever be an invalid experience if that is what actually took place?

Either would be a valid experience, as well as any other possible chain of thoughts and trust/distrust.

But those sensations that you are feeling as a result of reading the above, are EVEN THOSE just happening without any consent or permission?

Whatever is coming up RIGHT NOW for you... does it ask to arrive in your experience before it arrives? Or is it just arriving as we speak?

Yes, of course. Everything is always happening without consent and permission. Whatever happens, happens. Everything else is commentary after the fact or an afterthought.

Tell me what is being experienced.
Tell me if it ever asked your permission.
Tell me if the sensations that are coming up right now could be any different than what they are. EVEN THAT THOUGHT that is sprouting out RIGHT NOW after having just read that. Did even that thought ask your permission? If trembling is arising now, what about that?

I felt a slight uneasiness. I don't know if it was due to what you wrote or that you expected that it will have some kind of an impact, so there was also a bit of confusion. No permission needed, nothing could be any different than what actually happened. Well, maybe theoretically, but that's not what we're talking about here. I don't really understand the purpose of this. Thoughts, sensations etc happen on their own. No choice available, no invitation needed. The thought that seeking should cease when truth has been seen could be met by distrust as well as trust, although trust is what is happening here.

R.

[ashton]

Hi R.,

If I were to tell you that given all of your responses, I think you are already awakened... what happens?

What comes up for R.?

Ash.

[Rhapsody]

Well... That if that was true , seeking would cease and questions like "what now?" and "how should I proceed?" would not show up :)

[ashton]

R.,

If I were to tell you that given all of your responses, I think you are already awakened... what happens?

What comes up for R.?

Well... That if that was true , seeking would cease and questions like "what now?" and "how should I proceed?" would not show up :)

Can you see how that is just a thought?
Sure, yeah, it has that as it's content.
But is it not just content?

questions like "what now?" and "how should I proceed?" would not show up

But it did show up...
Did it not?

Try telling it not to show up.
Does it still show up?

Try it. See what happens.
Report your findings.

Tell it to show up.
Does it show up?

Try it. See what happens.
Report your findings.

And honestly... do I or you even care about what your findings are?
Or are they just findings?

Is there any inherent truth in the content?
Or is it content?

What about the relationship towards the content?
Whatever relationship arises towards it, doesnt it just arise on its own?

Look. See. Observe.
Maybe you are uncomfortable with the fact that you are clearly seeing the things I'm pointing at, and you wish it were some other way.

But if it IS whatever way that presents itself, then that's all there is, yeah?
Is there any say in the matter?

Report back to me.

Ash