Seeking to see the no-self

[Humblesight7]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there is no real self in the sense of "I', "me"

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance and pointing in the right direction, confirmation that I am actually seeing it instead of just thinking that I did, I want to make sure the seeing is genuine and not the ego playing mental gymnastics. Also I would like to be part of the community to help others as well.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Just a general pointing, I imagine those who have crossed over know what to look for and the right questions to ask, I am also a little anxious what will happen afterwards, but the main thing for me is to avoid self delusion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have a decades long fascination with finding the 'real' self, from exploring all kinds of texts from Buddhist, Daoist, Hindu, to fringe new age material.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

There is no "real" self & "the no self" isn't a thing. We can't call nothing a "no self." It simply doesn't exist.

Make sense?

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[Humblesight7]

Hi Stacy,

I re-read both the disclaimer and FAQ's.

Make sense?

Yes.

How will life change?

I really don't know, I think it's probably best not to have any expectations.

How will you change?

I assume it will mean more personal freedom, since there isn't a 'story' to have to adhere to anymore.

What will be different?

Forgive me for saying so, some of these questions aren't really answerable, I really don't know how things will be different,
I'm willing to be open minded and see what happens.

What is missing?

For me, the I/self/story is just an endless loop, there's no real end to it, it just drones on. So I guess what is missing is an authentic experience of life as is.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

You can call me Allen, I am in the Eastern US, so EST.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Allen

Those questions check for expectations. Many people have read & heard so much that they have a lot of expectations.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving

[Humblesight7]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

It feels unsettling, in the sense that the separate self feels familiar, also the idea that it isn't real is a little scary.

[Anastacia42]

Yes. That question checks for fears. Cats & expectations are the only things that can keep you from seeing there is no self.

Here is a meditation on fear that may help;:

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=FEJQ8xkZL9c-QydK


This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[Humblesight7]

Thank you for the video, it reminds me of some other methods that I have done in the past, so I understand the motivation behind the fear now. It is trying to protect happy memories, letting the 'self' go would be letting that go too.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Yes, I understand, I am looking for direct experience as opposed to intellectual understanding.

[Anastacia42]

Good.

is trying to protect happy memories, letting the 'self' go would be letting that go too.

Those will still be there.

So here is a practice.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[Humblesight7]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Ok, hope these are correct:

Thought about brushing teeth= thought
Seeing the brush= image/color
Holding brush, moving it in mouth=sensation
tasting the toothpaste= taste
hearing the sound of brushing= hearing
smelling the toothpaste= smell

Thought about hunger, wanting to eat candy bar= thought
seeing the package and bar itself= image/color
tasting the chocolate= taste
feeling the crunch of peanut, and candy melting= sensation
hearing the sound of chewing= hearing
smelling the chocolate= smell

Wanting to watch TV show, deciding what to watch=thought
seeing the people interact and do things= images/color
hearing the dialogue= hearing
feeling the soft bed I am laying on=sensation
(do not think taste and smell applied here)

[Anastacia42]

Good. Yes. Now this one:


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? They're there. Look.

Loving,

[Humblesight7]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

It's basically the same thing happening, events are still occurring, after the second 10 min. block, in hindsight the labeling in the first 10 min. felt unnecessary. So I suppose it isn't whether it's truer or not, one just doesn't have labels attached to it, reality is still happening.

2. What is here without labels?

Just experiencing what is happening in the present.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labeling made it harder to be present, I was feeling bored and irritated. So I suppose I was just describing and not experiencing.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? They're there. Look.

I noticed in the first time block I was more in my head, in the second block I felt more centered in my body, I felt calmer.

[Anastacia42]

Good.

It is about truer. That will be in your next pointer.

Without labels, yes. just Direct Experience

4, yes. that's how we see what is true.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,,

[Humblesight7]

What is found?

I lied to my boss about why I was late the other day, there was a tightness/constriction in the face, chest and gut

Do you see that?

Yes, looking back at yesterday's exercise, in the "I" portion the body constricted.

The second portion the body opened, the contraction began to lift.

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. Yes.

Now here's one about labels.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving,

[Humblesight7]

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

I see the word in red but see the color Green in my head

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The red is what I see in reality, the green is just imagined.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

No, it doesn't have any real correspondence to reality, what is being experienced, it just triggers pre-programmed thought.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

No, it's a label that overlays the experience.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Yes, by previous association the redness can have different feelings attached to it depending on if good or bad is used.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

It doesn't actually become good or bad, the 'red' is just there, whatever I feel is what I project onto it.

Let me know what is SEEN.

Language/thought is a filter which distorts actual experience of reality.