Dissolving the concept of non-self into direct realisation

[infinicky]

Dear Rowena,

Some resistance has come up in this process and I've taken a few days to sit with it. I'm noticing that I'm feeling increasingly disappointed by the way this guidance has been progressing. You've given me many exercises to work with and I've found many of them quite useful, but other than that, I've not experienced receiving much personal guidance. I guess I was hoping for a more personal approach, where our conversation would naturally deepen. With exercises that point me to where the self remains sticky, and you helping me to find where that self is most sticky and then responding to that with some direct pointing. While I see the value in the standard exercises, they come disjointed and don't seem to be responsive to my process or answers. I feel some frustration thinking that I could have just done the exercises from a workbook in my own time instead, if there isn't a lot of personally directed pointing anyway.

I'm wondering if you'd be willing to let me know how you recieve this? And is there a way to make this conversation more responsive, like I've seen browsing the forum between ditti and Elad in "Glimpses of non-separation"?

Thank you in advance for your understanding!

Nicky

[Noro]

Hello Nicky,

Thanks for your message and I really appreciate your honesty. I would be happy to look into guiding you in a way that might give a more personal approach. Generally I give the exercises for a while so that there is clarity with direct enquiry, and it is helpful to look first of all at the five senses before going on to looking deeper into the illusion of the self.

I am traveling today and tomorrow and so will answer your last post when I return tomorrow evening.

We can see how it goes from there.

Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for your kind and open reply. I feel relieved and grateful for your willingness to explore this with me. I understand your approach better now and I appreciate your explanation.
I'll get on with the last exercise and I wish you fun and safe travels!

Nicky

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

I hope you're well! I've enjoyed the last exercise. Especially the final question was interesting for me to experience.

HEARING EXERCISE

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

When I hear things, there is an automatic labelling going on. Birds, spacebar, breathing, speaking. But these are only thoughts. They are not part of the hearing. What is heard is only the sound.

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

When I just observe, there is only the hearing. I’m not doing any hearing. It just happens, hearing is effortless.

3) An 'I'? a 'body'? a 'person'? a brain? a pair of ears? Can these be found doing the hearing? Or is there just what can be heard'?

I can think and conceptualise a body and a brain processing the sound waves and decoding that into information etc., etc., but those are clearly only thoughts. Even thinking it through, those are dependent on everything else. But no, I cannot find anything doing any hearing.

4) Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?

There is no boundary. The heard becomes part of me, and the heard depends on the hearing, if that makes sense. It is just one at that moment. Boundaries are only thoughts, and thinking about how there is "no boundary" is also just thinking. There is only what's heard.

4b) Is there location or distance of what is heard?

I can conceptualise distance by how loud I hear a certain sound, which also depends on another concept. But actually, sound is just sound. The mind just takes it very quickly and conceptualises it into far, loud, pleasant, unpleasant.

5) What is the difference in experience between listening and hearing?

I suppose in “listening” there is a doer implied. That idea elicits an immediate tightening of the chest. A sudden “I have to do something” mindset. But in reality, both are equal. There is no doer, there is only sound.


Thank you again!

Nicky

[Noro]

Hello Nicky,

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?

When I hear things, there is an automatic labelling going on. Birds, spacebar, breathing, speaking. But these are only thoughts. They are not part of the hearing. What is heard is only the sound..

Nicky, in the above you did wander away from answering the question directly until the last sentence! Perhaps it is the way the question was phrased!

Now look: "When I hear things."
What is this "I" that hears things, can it be found as anything other than a thought?
Where is this "I" located?
Does there need to be a Hearer in order for hearing to happen?


2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

When I just observe, there is only the hearing. I’m not doing any hearing. It just happens, hearing is effortless.

What is this "I" that is observing, can it be found as anything other than a word, a thought, belief?
Can an actual observer be found?

4) Can a boundary be found between the hearer and what's heard or is there only what's heard?

There is no boundary. The heard becomes part of me, and the heard depends on the hearing, if that makes sense. It is just one at that moment. Boundaries are only thoughts, and thinking about how there is "no boundary" is also just thinking. There is only what's heard.

No boundary ... Good,

"The heard becomes part of me......"

Yes, this does make sense, however, for this inquiry we must look closer:
Can an actual 'me' be found or located anywhere?
What is this "me" in direct experience?


5) What is the difference in experience between listening and hearing?

I suppose in “listening” there is a doer implied. That idea elicits an immediate tightening of the chest. A sudden “I have to do something” mindset. But in reality, both are equal. There is no doer, there is only sound.

Excellent, and I like the way you described the sensations and the mindset that arose when considering the idea of "listening".

Some resistance has come up in this process and I've taken a few days to sit with it. I'm noticing that I'm feeling increasingly disappointed by the way this guidance has been progressing. You've given me many exercises to work with and I've found many of them quite useful, but other than that, I've not experienced receiving much personal guidance. I guess I was hoping for a more personal approach, where our conversation would naturally deepen. With exercises that point me to where the self remains sticky, and you helping me to find where that self is most sticky and then responding to that with some direct pointing. While I see the value in the standard exercises, they come disjointed and don't seem to be responsive to my process or answers. I feel some frustration thinking that I could have just done the exercises from a workbook in my own time instead, if there isn't a lot of personally directed pointing anyway.

In LU, the questions are directed towards looking to see if a separate, individual 'self' entity can be found, and direct experience is very helpful in that regard. I am not really sure what exactly you mean regarding receiving personal guidance, but I am very happy to get into deeper looking, bearing in mind that we will always be looking to prove/disprove the actual existence of a separate self, and therefore, by extension, anything that is taken personally.

Where in your life are you finding that you take things personally, or you experience resistance or reactivity? Please feel free to use what you have written above for this inquiry.

What are the thoughts that arise?
What are the expectations that are not being met?
What are you hoping for?
What does 'disappointment' have to say?
What does 'boredom' have to say?
What body sensations accompany this resistance?


Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Dear Rowena,

I’m very grateful for your extra pointers, thank you! I’ll do my best to stay with the direct experience when looking.

Now look: "When I hear things."
What is this "I" that hears things, can it be found as anything other than a thought?

The “I” is just a concept, a thought.

Where is this "I" located?

There is no “I” to be found. Nothing to be really pointed to.

Does there need to be a Hearer in order for hearing to happen?

Hearing and “the Hearer” are one and the same? There is hearing, but there’s no separate something to be found that is doing any hearing. So, no. There doesn’t need to be a “Hearer”.

"When I just observe..."
What is this "I" that is observing, can it be found as anything other than a word, a thought, belief?

No. There is no “what”. Just the idea of the “I” observing. There is just observing.

Can an actual observer be found?

It really does seem like there should be something, but that’s just a belief. Nothing to be found in direct experience.

"The heard becomes part of me..."
Can an actual 'me' be found or located anywhere?
What is this "me" in direct experience?

No, it seems silly now, saying that anything becomes part of “me”. There is no basis to add anything to. Nothing to be directly pointed to or experienced. Only the experience itself.


Some more space and time is required to answer your last questions, so I’ll get back to you on those tomorrow!

Nicky

[Noro]

Hello Nicky,

Just to say, thanks for your last post and I look forward to receiving your next one soon.

Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Dear Rowena,

I've been reflecting on and practicing with Byron Katie's four questions and this has loosened a lot of my earlier beliefs around this process and your guidance. My disappointment seems kind of silly at this point, but here goes:

Where in your life are you finding that you take things personally, or you experience resistance or reactivity?

I experience resistance whenever something I was hoping for doesn’t happen. Or when other people threaten my beliefs about myself. That I’m caring, or intelligent, or a “good practitioner”. When they don’t do/say what I hoped them to do.
But mostly, around judgements and when other people are upset with something I did.

What body sensations accompany this resistance?

A pressure that keeps buiding in my chest and throat, heat. Tightness in my belly, jaw and around my heart. Unpleasant.

What are the thoughts that arise?

In the example when I felt disappointed about your guidance:
“She doesn’t see me as an individual and treats me like I’m generic”, and “I could’ve just gotten the list of exercises and done this by myself”, and (embarrassingly) "I deserve to recieve more personal guidance if others are getting that too".

What are the expectations that are not being met?

To get responsive directions specific to my answers to the exercises, leading me to deeper insights which I couldn’t have achieved by just following a scripted general set of exercises by myself.

What are you hoping for?

Liberation from my stories of Self and guidance all the way there.

I don’t understand the following 2 questions. Could you perhaps rephrase them?

What does 'disappointment' have to say?
What does 'boredom' have to say?

Thank you 😊

[Noro]

Dear Nicky,

Thanks for your answers, let's look into this.

Where in your life are you finding that you take things personally, or you experience resistance or reactivity?

I experience resistance whenever something I was hoping for doesn’t happen. Or when other people threaten my beliefs about myself. That I’m caring, or intelligent, or a “good practitioner”. When they don’t do/say what I hoped them to do.
But mostly, around judgements and when other people are upset with something I did.

Good, this is a great start. I won't go further here, because there isn't a specific situation to look into, but I love the clarity
"I experience resistance whenever something I was hoping for doesn’t happen." YES!!!

And where can that "I" that was hoping for something be found?
Can it be found anywhere other than a thought?

My take on 'resistance' it is label that is pointing directly towards sensations in the body that are arising into experience to be noticed and felt "without resistance"!! And that 'resistance' (in its many forms) is saying "hold on, stop, look inward."


What body sensations accompany this resistance?

A pressure that keeps buiding in my chest and throat, heat. Tightness in my belly, jaw and around my heart. Unpleasant.

The descriptions are great, you are very clear with body sensations. When your experience is fully placed into body sensations, allow all descriptive labels to drop. Be fully with the sensations.
Are sensations in themselves pleasant or unpleasant?
What are the labels "pleasant/unpleasant," are they ACTUAL to sensations, or ACTUAL as thought content?
Meaning, do sensations automatically come with labels such as "pleasant/unpleasant?


What are you hoping for?
Liberation from my stories of Self and guidance all the way there.

What is wanting liberation from 'its" stories?
Can you find an independent, separate entity that a) seeks liberation and b) is the owner of stories?

Take a look: Can that independent, separate self or entity be found anywhere other than as a thought?

Earlier on, there was an exercise on OBSERVING THOUGHTS. Here was your answer to one of the questions:
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Definitely not. Again, I wish! Wanting to not think about something makes it 100% more likely to appear.

Is the thought content "liberation from my stories" circulating in your experience all the time, or just some times?

Would you say that this thought is a kind of short-cut thought pointing to:"I experience resistance whenever something I was hoping for doesn’t happen. Or when other people threaten my beliefs about myself. That I’m caring, or intelligent, or a “good practitioner”. When they don’t do/say what I hoped them to do.
But mostly, around judgements and when other people are upset with something I did."

Can you stop thoughts/interpretations/associations etc. from happening?
Are you the thinker of thoughts? Yes/No?
Can you do anything to stop sensations from happening? Yes/No

I don’t understand the following 2 questions. Could you perhaps rephrase them?
What does 'disappointment' have to say?
What does 'boredom' have to say?

The above questions are a slightly different way of approaching a situation that I find helpful. It means taking feelings at face value, that there really is a part of us that is quickly hurt, disappointed, bored, etc. (This is loosely based on the healing modality of IFS - Internal Family Systems) And by asking that 'part' or state directly what it wants it can help gain more clarity into underlying thoughts/beliefs that are present.

There is a general belief that seeing through the 'illusion of a separate self' will mean that all personal life experiences, memories and everything that has impacted and been held as stress in the body will miraculously disappear. This doesn't happen, the process of inquiry and investigation will continue, but with less and less resistance and with more and more delight and curiosity.



INTRODUCTORY BODY EXERCISE
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations in direct experience, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to? Can an ACTUAL body be found?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.


Warmly,

Rowena

[infinicky]

Hi Rowena,

I appreciate your thoughtful response and interesting pointers!

Who's hoping?

And where can that "I" that was hoping for something be found?
Can it be found anywhere other than a thought?

Hmm. That "I" cannot be found, but it seems so real. "I'm" hoping. But I also don't know what hoping would be if not a thought. And "I" am not "the thinker". The thoughts just happen. I'm still getting stuck on the "but then who is noticing?" thought. It's so strange to think that there's no one doing any noticing either. But I can't find someone noticing anything. That too is just a thought... It's really weird and feels scary. Like falling.


Dropping description from body sensations

Are sensations in themselves pleasant or unpleasant?
What are the labels "pleasant/unpleasant," are they ACTUAL to sensations, or ACTUAL as thought content?
Meaning, do sensations automatically come with labels such as "pleasant/unpleasant?

The sensations are actually just sensations, you're right! They just get labelled very quickly as pleasant or unpleasant, even though the exact same sensations could go either way. So yeah, no, they are added and don't come with the sensations themselves. They are also just thoughts.


What's wanting liberation from "its" stories?

Can you find an independent, separate entity that a) seeks liberation and b) is the owner of stories?
Take a look: Can that independent, separate self or entity be found anywhere other than as a thought?

a) there is no separate entity seeking anything, that too is just a thought.
b) there is no owner of thoughts, just the thoughts.
The seemingly separate entity is just a thought, which comes up and seems very real until it's noticed.
Language is becoming increasingly difficult in this way. The "I" is always mentioned as separate, making it so automatic to believe "it's" really doing things. "I'm" wanting liberation is just a thought. Both the "I" and the "wanting liberation". Just labels.

Is the thought content "liberation from my stories" circulating in your experience all the time, or just sometimes?

It's only there sometimes, as thinking isn't continuous either. The thought just appears sometimes, without anyone controlling it.

Can you stop thoughts/interpretations/associations etc. from happening?

No

Are you the thinker of thoughts? Yes/No?

No

Can you do anything to stop sensations from happening? Yes/No

No

...by asking that 'part' or state directly what it wants it can help gain more clarity into underlying thoughts/beliefs that are present.

Thank you for explaining your earlier questions! It's a good pointer to look at the beliefs/stories that underlie the labels of disappointment/boredom next time.

There is a general belief that seeing through the 'illusion of a separate self' will mean that all personal life experiences, memories and everything that has impacted and been held as stress in the body will miraculously disappear. This doesn't happen, the process of inquiry and investigation will continue, but with less and less resistance and with more and more delight and curiosity.

THANK YOU! This seems much more doable than the miraculous, sudden disappearance of all past/future hurt.



INTRODUCTORY BODY EXERCISE

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, only conceptualised.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Yes, and no. Because weight and volume are measurable, yet those are also just concepts and labels, and ultimately aren’t real.

In the actual experience, does the body have a shape or a form?

No.

Can a boundary be detected between the body and the clothing?

No.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - an inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - an outside of what exactly?

No, just concepts.

What does the word/label ‘body’ actually refer to? Can an ACTUAL body be found?

There is no actual “body”. The body needs to be thought for it to exist as a body.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

There are only sensations. Body and parts need to be constructed before being able to say “my eye feels itchy”. First, there’s only the sensation.


Thank you again, Rowena! This was again quite the experience.

[Noro]

Hello again Nicky,

That was a quick response! <3

And where can that "I" that was hoping for something be found?
Can it be found anywhere other than a thought?

Hmm. That "I" cannot be found, but it seems so real. "I'm" hoping.

OK, you've got a thought "I'm hoping" so what else is going on that makes it seem so real? (Clue, the body!)
What do you notice?

Also, just because you were able to find an ACTUAL body in the last exercise of direct experience. i.e. "there's only sensations." This does not mean that for our conventional reality bodies don't exist. They do, and it is important to bring the body and all the sensations into the investigation. The paradox can be compared with materialistic science (bodies) with quantum science (its all 99.9 percent space!)

But I also don't know what hoping would be if not a thought. And "I" am not "the thinker". The thoughts just happen.
Keep looking, what's arising when hoping is happening. What is hoping in response to?
Hoping generally refers to some thoughts about positive future change, and if change is hoped for, then that is in response to some sense of lack or discomfort HERE NOW. Or, it could be referring to a past situation projected as a hoped for satisfactory ending in the future.

Please find something recent that's on your mind that is being hoped for and see if you can probe deeper. We can do it together if you would like to share an example.

I'm still getting stuck on the "but then who is noticing?" thought. It's so strange to think that there's no one doing any noticing either. But I can't find someone noticing anything. That too is just a thought... It's really weird and feels scary. Like falling

.

Yes, this is how it feels at first. Like the rug has been pulled out from under the feet!
Stay with the sensations, allow them to be, exactly as they are. Find a place where you KNOW rationally that you are safe, like sitting on a comfortable chair or lying on your bed. Get curious, ask yourself...how does this falling feel? and....Can I BE fully PRESENT to these sensations of falling? The body/nervous system is waking up too!

Here is a video that addresses this:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w
"FALLING", Integration of Awakening. Ilona Ciunate

The seemingly separate entity is just a thought, which comes up and seems very real until it's noticed.

Yes, and this process of going back and noticing will go on for a while. It can take a while to disprove an old habit or assumption.

Language is becoming increasingly difficult in this way. The "I" is always mentioned as separate, making it so automatic to believe "it's" really doing things. "I'm" wanting liberation is just a thought. Both the "I" and the "wanting liberation". Just labels.

This previously un-investigated assumption of a separate "I" is one of the first things we learned when we were a small child, so it is a deeply ingrained habit or automatic response. It will take a little while for 'the body-mind system' to acknowledge and integrate while still using "I" conventionally in language.


Is the thought content "liberation from my stories" circulating in your experience all the time, or just sometimes?

It's only there sometimes, as thinking isn't continuous either. The thought just appears sometimes, without anyone controlling it.

Great

THANK YOU! This seems much more doable than the miraculous, sudden disappearance of all past/future hurt.

I'm happy that that landed well!


I'm glad the body exercise went well. Here is another one!

DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time, do this investigation when you are feeling relaxed and grounded. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.

Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all, Or just thoughts about ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just thoughts about a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Yes/No answers are fine where appropriate.

Warmly,

Rowena