10,000Things

[DurangoK]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I’m not always good at describing these things, but I can’t say that when I look for a self, I do not find one. Even more clearly I see there’s no separation. While I understand there is no-self and no separation when I look, i want to realize it in a more easy abiding manner.

What are you looking for at LU?
Accountability - I seem to require a little more accountability in order to hold focus on non-abiding nature. LU seems like a good platform for this purpose. Ultimately I would like to return the favor to those who are next in line.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect my guide to hold my nose to the grindstone and to challenge me. Even my koan teacher lets me off too easy, and I still disassociate into busyness rather easily (although much less so these days).

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I began practicing Zazen in approximately 1991. My practice has taken twists and turns, but it has always been my most important and consistent guiding element during good times and bad (same/same). After Roshi Aitken died I fell naturally into a shikantaza practice that has largely remained. I recently began working with a new Roshi on koan practice, which is a whole lot clearer now than it was in the 90s.

Over the years I have participated in online retreats with Adyashanti and Angelo DeLullo. I am currently fascinated with non-duality, which seems to (mostly) be the direction by which I experience no self.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[poppyseed]

Hi DurangoK
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[DurangoK]

what do you want me to call you?

K or Kristine, your preference.

Yes, I have read what liberation unleashed is not, and agree to those terms.

What time zone are you in?

Mountain time/Denver time. What time zone are you in?

[poppyseed]

Hi Kristine
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic.

Mountain time/Denver time. What time zone are you in?

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

Yes, I have read what liberation unleashed is not, and agree to those terms.

Great! First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[DurangoK]

Hi Rali,

This was more difficult than I imagined as I don’t have a good feel for the terminology and how it relates to what I experience. Hopefully the responses make sense. I also hope to get better at checking for the notifications. It may take practice to respond every day as being in front of the computer is historically not my happy place.

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Not 100% sure I understand what that means, but I seem to feel this when in meditation, in nature, and sometimes much or most of the day. It is open and expansive with no real center with no desire to change anything. I am uncertain how that would be if that were to happen all the time or if that is even a potential goal. Right now as I relax and go inwards there is a knot or heaviness in my chest that seems associated with breath and feels almost like a core but has no relationship to what I used to think self was. (As I revisit this there is not even that, only various mild sensations).

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

Largely nothing. Maybe my house will get more messy (ha ha). Maybe less urgency will arise as seems to be the direction in the last few years. Maybe equanimity will further increase.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don’t worry about what will happen with this, never have with exception to being slightly concerned about my parenting ability decreasing back with my son was little. I see I have not lost ability to take care of practicalities due to the shifts I have already experienced, though priorities have shifted.

4. What are you hoping for?

There is still hope that I will experience non-duality without limits. I don’t know how far it goes, where it ends, or if it can (or is even desirable) to be experienced consistently on an ongoing basis. Maybe that is slightly off topic, but feels like the same response applies to full realization of no separate self too. I don’t understand how much overlap there is.

5. What is missing?

100% awareness on what I seem to realize part time? There is a shifting in and out of open awareness as I live this fairly active life. When not feeling open awareness there is often an undercurrent of desire for what would be a more complete realization, of seeing through what seems to be illusion/delusion, which feels like some degree of suffering or tension. This occurs largely when I feel rushed, in task overload, or when shadow stuff comes up.

Love K

[poppyseed]

Hi Kristine

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks, eternal bliss and happily ever after; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I don’t worry about what will happen with this, never have with exception to being slightly concerned about my parenting ability decreasing back with my son was little. I see I have not lost ability to take care of practicalities due to the shifts I have already experienced, though priorities have shifted

Yes! Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. How can an illusion have abilities/lack of them? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will…
Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[DurangoK]

Hi Rali,

The only true expectation that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. Is that OK with you?

Yes, this feels right to agree with. The question resonates, and I’m happy to let all expectations and concepts go now to the extent possible.

How can an illusion have abilities/lack of them?

So the “I” is the illusion here, and its more like things are just unfolding now and now and now? I definitely don’t live this part consistently, but if looking very closely everything kind of turns itself inside out. But it takes subtle effort. Except when it doesn’t. And no, an illusion can’t have abilities or lack of abilities.

I like what you said next about fear of being only a sensation with a thought. I see that and would like to recognize that more naturally as stuff comes up.

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Looking everywhere for the “I” there is nothing solid. Nothing resembling matter. An awareness of being. But paradoxically also of being and not being everything in the sensory experience. The mountains the eyes see, but the eyes don’t belong to me or even actually do anything. They are only apparently there as I can’t see them. The tightness in the neck, the cool air. A sense that somehow the body is involved in making all of this possible, but there’s no relevance to “why” or “how” because if it’s even really here it doesn’t seem to belong to me. A witness doesn't make sense when really deep in this sense of all- and nothing-ness.

[poppyseed]

Hi Kristine

Thank you so much for your openness and willingness to see through the illusion in all its aspects!

Looking everywhere for the “I” there is nothing solid. Nothing resembling matter. An awareness of being. But paradoxically also of being and not being everything in the sensory experience. The mountains the eyes see, but the eyes don’t belong to me or even actually do anything. They are only apparently there as I can’t see them. The tightness in the neck, the cool air. A sense that somehow the body is involved in making all of this possible, but there’s no relevance to “why” or “how” because if it’s even really here it doesn’t seem to belong to me. A witness doesn't make sense when really deep in this sense of all- and nothing-ness.

Wonderful! That gives me an idea “where you are”.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. That’s how to look.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience.
Thus, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[DurangoK]

Thank you for doing this with me :-)

Love K

[DurangoK]

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes, I definitely agree with this. One can’t know apple until one has actually experienced apple for oneself. But then one still can’t really know apple until each individual apple is experienced because no two are at all alike.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

There is no “apple”. “Apple” misses the point and does not account for the myriad distinctions between each and every individual thing called apple. Even the word as a spelled notion looks suspect to my currently very tired mind. My supposed “apple” is a solid feeling object that resists pressure up to a point. It is asymmetrically roundish and smooth, mostly of the colors we call “red” and “yellow” on the surface, with a delicate floral fragrance. It is unique and unbelievably beautiful, and naming it dumbs it down. Naming my apple “apple” takes away from the individual glory of this unique piece of art. How sad for us all, as everything we look at is actually deeply beautiful, and we are missing the true thing.

Apple cannot be found in this experience, my object is so much more and less than “apple” (less in that my preconceived idea of apple must be not only missing most aspects/details of apple, but also incorrect as I haven’t experienced each and every apple). Language is showing itself to be a poor substitute for the actual thing.

This exercise feels similar to the shift I fell into a couple of years ago whereby all things suddenly became art. All visible things are now lines and colors in spectacular seemingly endless arrays. I make art and have been paralyzed for a while over how to show this in my pieces.

Love K