Investigation

[Pantikol]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Nobody is in control. Everything happens by itself. Yet I have a habit that contradicts this. I look at it, but nothing changes. I observe the labeling, but it becomes forced observation. This is not it. Let me observe this too. I am already nauseous from this.

What are you looking for at LU? Clarity. I understood that nothing changes, but when I fanatically looked at the source day and night for weeks. Everything disappeared and everything was one. After that, everything relaxed for weeks and happened by itself. Nobody did anything. I know that It. I don't want "painkillers", I need the truth. It is necessary! Beyond the theory... I have looked several times that there is no "me" who does it. So I resist. Ok, then let it be what arises. By itself. But this gives rise to violent attention or boredom. Am I waiting for something else? Who? The emotions come. I let it... It intensifies. So what? And I see what is constant behind it all. Watching that, the space narrowed before. How can this be simple when we suffer for years to find it?

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Point out my mistakes (blind spot). Exercise, question, whatever... I read Gateless Gatecrashers which is so clean, simple. Each one is a success story. I tried not only to read, but also to do... Many times what appeared in the book was what came to my mind before. This is exactly what I need, because I need a correct guideline. Please help me, thank you!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I've been to a lot of places (meditation, self-development, etc.). This is more of a disadvantage, I don't need these. It was everything from half a second to a week-long experience. I don't need this either. I'm sick of self-development, especially since it's already packed into everything. If you want to be an entrepreneur, sooner or later self-knowledge and psychology will come. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's not what I'm looking for. I need a clear vision without belief. Reality. There is. Freedom. I don't want to be afraid anymore, just play. It seems like these will pop up the same way, but something doesn't believe it. What's constant? As I investigate, something new always comes up, but I think I'm fooling myself, because the years go by and I feel that this isn't It. This judgmental voice shouldn't be believed and that's it? The picture didn't come together, but I feel the door is close. I can see the frustration too. There was an intense search, there was a less intense search, there was a time when I threw it all away. But it bit me very young and wouldn't let me! I have to go to the end, I won't give up.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[graceabounds]

Hello dear,

Thank you for your patience in waiting for a guide. Happy to be with you here.

What name would you like to be called?

-Becca

[Pantikol]

Hello Becca,

thank you, thank you, thank you!
Call me whatever you want, Ben, Pan, Pantikol, dear :)
I'm always interested in this topic, and I'm in it right now. Thank you in advance for your time and energy.

[graceabounds]

haha ok Ben,

Let’s start with expectations :)


What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

What do you want not to happen?

What are you hoping for?

What is missing?

-Becca

[Pantikol]

Hi Dear!

What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Almost nothing. For weeks now, dozens of times a day, I have been thinking that I am not me, and it is immediately obvious that this is a thought. This gives me a very mild freshness, peace, like a little candy. No big breakthrough or anything like that.

I read this page (dialogues, books related to this) several times a day, thinking about the questions. This keeps the fire going. But I don't even think about it anymore. The mood of this topic is just good.

Yes, I see that simple thoughts appear. There are no complex ones: from this A, from that B follows, because C says so. Waste of energy.

I don't think much anymore. But I didn't know how to think before either. :) Because at most, I can just bring my intention to a topic and then spontaneous things arise.

Of course, I can decide (this thought arises) that, for example, I will write a proposal, and then I will write down everything related to it. I think looking back, it seems like I did it. But it's not that deep in me yet.

What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

The end of searching and fear. Accepting everything for what it is. Why would I want something that doesn't exist? I used to want to avoid pain and keep peace, I wanted to feel good, be healthy and have everything always be okay. But, I see now that this is a waste of time. The truth is what matters and I don't get to decide what it is.



I already felt before that I wouldn't mind if I died. The cessation of the fear of death is important. Let's say looking at it now, it's not scary either, because it seems like such a fantasy. If I'm not, I'm not, and the past is gone. What I remember of it is subjective.



Is there something you know will never die or do you just not care about it?

What do you want not to happen?

The point is not what doesn't happen, but how I experience it. I've been lying in bed doing nothing for hours before, "depressed" and at peace, happy. Maybe I don't want physical pain. That takes my attention away. But about what? That's the experience then. After all, I'm not in control, right?

There's always a basic mood. This is even more important than feelings and thoughts. It's like an idle speed state and can last for days, months, and even a recurring element. I think that's what affects people the most.

If it's negative, then no matter what happens, suffering is guaranteed. If it's positive, no matter what happens, I feel good.

Now somehow that's not important either. The thought always comes back that I don't exist. I look at it. Okay. And everything goes on.


In a hypnotized state, I'm afraid that I won't have a job and I'll be homeless. I'm quite far from that, but I can't control how much work I have and this program lives in me. This worry arises. But I can't control it, I can't force myself to do it. If there is work, I'll gladly do it. But, if you don't have it, you still have to pay the bills. I've thought about it a lot, I've tried.

And there's one more thing. I don't really want anything. My hobbies are sleeping and eating.:) And I like watching a good movie with my partner. This doesn't mean I'm a lazy, fat guy.

Our life has just become simpler. However, because of this, boredom often appears, with a lot of time. I can't really put energy into anything, because there's no motivation left. Everything changes. I see this now, and tomorrow I'll see it differently.

It doesn't bother me that much. Boredom bothered me, but I don't feel it right now either.

I feel like I couldn't bear to lose my partner. We've been together since the beginning of time, with similar views day and night... They'd cut off my arm if I lost it.

What are you hoping for?

I feel like I'm on the right track and something has started and I just have to let it go. The most important thing is that „me” is not here. If scary thoughts come to me, e.g. about the body, the future or hopeful things tempt me, I still come back here because I know it's tempting, but in time I'll pay the price.

I don't let myself be diverted and I don't give up. I traveled a lot, I practiced a lot before.

What is missing?

Somewhere deep down I might still believe in the fairy tale that something is missing. Something other than what is needed is needed. But, now let me focus on this and believe this thought and list things? I can't believe this anymore.

I feel like this would be an effort, not a search for truth.

Because I see everything from the perspective of the body through the eyes, it's hard to say, "This doesn't belong to me." It belongs to me more than the other person's body. And he would say the same thing.


I feel like what I'm reading makes no sense, just points of view, compared to what? I don't know anything... If I don't think about it, even while resting my attention on it, it isn't here. THANK YOU

[Pantikol]

Sorry, I mean: I feel like what I wrote makes no sense, just points of view, compared to what? I don't know anything... If I don't think about it, even while resting my attention on it, it isn't here. THANK YOU

[graceabounds]

You’re very close, but you’re still managing this. Keeping it calm, mild, “a little candy.”

I’m not interested in that. :)

Because at most, I can just bring my intention to a topic and then spontaneous things arise.

Exactly. So are you in ownership of the spontaneous thoughts that arise? Are they controllable, correct, or real? Are you responsible for them?

For example, you say losing your partner would be unbearable. Is this anything but a fantasy of thought? You are playing around the illusion of control when it comes to death, but not in relationship.

Is there a self here who is responsible for self-motivation? Or do things just happen or not?

Right now, without using thought or referring to anything you’ve learned...
is there anything here that needs to awaken?

Is that just another thought appearing in nothing?

Answer from what is actually happening, not from understanding.

Is the truth ever findable? Who would find it?

[Pantikol]

So are you in ownership of the spontaneous thoughts that arise? Are they controllable, correct, or real? Are you responsible for them?

Yes, it seems, because they arise within me and not in the neighbor. But, if I examine them more closely, I cannot be the owner of them, because I cannot control them, keep them with me, like an object. They are volatile.

Like a tap, thoughts constantly flow through them, sometimes more slowly, sometimes more quickly. They come and go by themselves, so I am not responsible for them. I use a water purifier anyway.:)

Is there a self here who is responsible for self-motivation? Or do things just happen or not?

So the selection is made from spontaneously arising thoughts. But on what basis? Does the thought come back several times, or does it seem "stronger"? That is, do I believe in it more? What is faith? A thought supported by another? What is the difference between the concepts (thoughts) of a crossbow and death? Nothing. Variations of the letters of the ABC. Fantasizing, as you wrote...

I don't even know what it means to identify. How could I become identified with anything if I can look at it?

But, when a family member died unexpectedly. Before that, for a few months, the thought returned several times a day, that he was going to die (only I was thinking about the other parent). The night before, the thought came to mind: "I don't have a father." According to them, every thought is intuition. And before, I thought it would hurt a lot. I cried my heart out in 1.5 hours and then I realized there was no point in feeling sorry for myself. So I can't know in advance what will happen.

Responsible = Response-ability... If I enroll in a school or sign a contract, because it feels good now and seems good. But tomorrow I might not feel like it and I don't care. Maybe it's okay, but I can't promise anything, I don't know what tomorrow will bring. Oh, that's why there are so many zombies at work? :)

Let's say my partner asks me which ice cream to choose. This is no child's play. It's a major decision.:) I imagine them and say this. I know you don't like candy :), but on what basis is the decision made? Based on the past, I can imagine which one would be good now. I'm going to eat it tonight, but I can't eat it right away at the store.:)


If I am attacked on the street, I will run away and not let them hurt me. Is this a choice?

I pay attention to my body, often the thought of its movement appears afterwards. For example, when running, I step wrong and I become aware of it when the body has corrected it (automatically) so that there is no injury.

But I think there are also times when a thought appears that I am getting out of bed now and the body follows it. But there are also times when this thought appears and the body does not follow it.:) Or it gets up at night when I do not intend to get up. I would rather intend to sleep.:) So it is living its own life?

…is there anything here that needs to awaken?

I don't even know what awakening is. I could write a book about what it is NOT.:) That would be a business book.:)

It's as if everything is the same, I started to see everything upside down.

We seem like idiots to talk about the reality that's here. There's nothing else here. Just this. What are we talking about so much? And reality is so free that even this fits in.

Is the truth ever findable? Who would find it?

Good questions early in the morning.:) Everything is true. Otherwise, how could it exist? The nervousness, the howling, the soft smile, the dewdrop on the tree and the dog shit.

[graceabounds]

First of all, I am sorry for your loss. And I also can relate precisely to what you describe in the afterprocess.

Everything is true. Otherwise, how could it exist? The nervousness, the howling, the soft smile, the dewdrop on the tree and the dog shit.

Are thoughts true? I should say are the contents of thoughts true?

Yes, it seems, because they arise within me and not in the neighbor

Do they arise within you? Where?

But I think there are also times when a thought appears that I am getting out of bed now and the body follows it. But there are also times when this thought appears and the body does not follow it.:) Or it gets up at night when I do not intend to get up. I would rather intend to sleep.:) So it is living its own life?

So no cause and effect.Thought does not cause movement. But careful now, what is the IT that is living its own life as if it is a chaos monster in the wheelhouse?

[Pantikol]

First of all, I am sorry for your loss. And I also can relate precisely to what you describe in the afterprocess.

Thank you, I appreciate it, but it's no longer important.

Are thoughts true? I should say are the contents of thoughts true?

I start from the surface because I don't want to leave any doubt that could creep back in. None of the thoughts are reality itself, they just refer to it, which is practical in communication. For example, "My car is in the service station", so I don't have to take you to the service station to show you so that you understand. A primitive man didn't know this, so it's something that was created.

There are 4 types of thoughts A. factual and B. subjective, C. mixture (logical connection, norm), D. creative association (fantasy).

B: An opinion is only true from one perspective, so it's only a partial truth.

A: A factual thought is also not true, because you say it's $5,000. You can buy a bicycle with it, for example. But in reality it's just a piece of paper. (Without gold backing, it's based on trust.) It means nothing to a baby, just like the sentence "My car is in the service station" is just babbling to a baby. That is, these are learned things. We believe…

So it’s just sounds and paper. New concepts: what is sound and what is paper? etc. I don’t really know, I would just add new concepts, but that doesn’t get us any deeper.
So the other receiving party also has to assume things in order for it to work the way society expects. But from the point of view of reality, this is irrelevant.

And now I’m writing to you using thoughts, so what’s the point of that?

Does this reasoning make sense? I think anger would also appear if someone criticized me, even though we said there is no 'me' and I just wrote that their opinion is subjective. Or is this also just a phenomenon? Who is to judge?

Do they arise within you? Where?

I don't know. It's automatic, there's just the recognition. It happens by itself. I bring my attention to it and it happens. It's also a thought, how long do I hold it? I’ll shift my focus now, because I don’t want to write miles again.

So no cause and effect.Thought does not cause movement. But careful now, what is the IT that is living its own life as if it is a chaos monster in the wheelhouse?

Causal relationship: I draw something on the stock market chart, afterwards. But no one knows what will happen. Not even the experts, they manage risk at the most.

But, if I really need to pee, then like a fortune teller I know in advance that my body will soon be in the bathroom :), or, if the heat rises, it will become a cloud... This is a causal relationship. So this also exists. But nothing is 100%, because I don't know which bathroom I will be in.

'Thought does not cause movement. '

So I'm not sure about this. I always wonder if the body moves by itself or does the thought also affect it or is this just an after-the-fact labeling? For example, now I think to raise my hand, but I don't do it. Now I do it. Why? We say this is will, what kind of will? Another concept... In the sea of concepts.

I examine and write words, but I don't feel this is deep. I play with words, it doesn't really make me happy. I don't want to be a philosopher. I want to meet the truth.

The idea that 'there is no me' still comes up many times a day and it starts to seem like I'm not living my life. In fact, not only is there no freedom (which I was looking for), but every moment is predetermined. I've been free so far, a lot of the time, but I've never really been interested in anything else.

Things just happen, but is there something else that judges this, which is another thought?

[Pantikol]

If we're talking about objective truth, why doesn't science notice it? That's what researchers should be doing.

I have to look at it completely differently. Forgetting the old, familiar perspective. There is a thought (A). Then, if I explain it, it will require further thoughts (B and C), but they are unrelated to A. So the thought is meaningless (this does not mean that it has no meaning). And this is also a thought. So the thought does not lead anywhere. Misunderstandings, assumptions…

The 'I' is also a thought. And when I thought I had lost that, in fact, just another 'ordinary' thought emerged, which is just as powerful as the 'spiritual' thought or the thought of 'self-consciousness'. And the comparison of that is also just a thought.

A book with thoughts: e.g. Whitman, Seneca or a cookbook. Likewise paper, glue and ink. And that's what you pay for at the bookstore.

From now on, I will just try to refer to something that I do not know what.

[graceabounds]

Hello Ben,

I examine and write words, but I don't feel this is deep. I play with words, it doesn't really make me happy. I don't want to be a philosopher. I want to meet the truth.

Great. Fabulous.

So what is here that is not a thought?

The idea that 'there is no me' still comes up many times a day and it starts to seem like I'm not living my life. In fact, not only is there no freedom (which I was looking for), but every moment is predetermined

You’ve replaced “I am in control” with another belief:
“Everything is predetermined”

Both are thoughts! …stories.

Is there an experience of “predetermined”?

So I'm not sure about this. I always wonder if the body moves by itself or does the thought also affect it or is this just an after-the-fact labeling?

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

-Becca

[Pantikol]

Hi Becca,

... So what is here that is not a thought?

Everything else?

Is there an experience of “predetermined”?

No. It's just a thought. It's either true or it's not. It's irrelevant.

How is the movement controlled? Does a thought control it? Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located? How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise? Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

When the movement happens, I am conscious of it or I am aware of it later, like a thought. So I am not the one deciding. The casting happens by itself or the hesitation. Nobody chose anything. This is only seen from an outside perspective. This is only a thought. I do not see another person, there is only experience...

When the thought is directed towards bodily movement, but the body does not move, then it has nothing to do with the movement of the body, it is just a thought. That is why the body does not move. Not because the thought controls the body.


Then I started to move my hand spontaneously. I didn't know how it would move in advance. It was as much a surprise as watching my thoughts. It's like dancing. I move my body, but I don't determine in advance exactly how it should move.

I watched this during the day. My body moved in ways that I wasn't aware of many times. Like digestion. When you bite your nails unconsciously or do something in company that you don't want to.

But something is controlling the body, because I let the hand move however it wants, but I'm not going to slap myself or suddenly throw myself out of bed.

But this is all normal, I don't feel any change, the problem is really with control.

[Pantikol]

In summary: Thoughts, feelings, moods, body sensations usually arise spontaneously based on circumstances and experiences and then become conscious. You don't know in advance what will happen. Who will it happen to if there is only life?

I examined the body to see if it was me. If it were really me (or I controlled it), I would be able to influence it to the maximum. But I can't: I don't know when it is born, when it dies, when it gets sick, when it wakes up at night or in the morning, etc.

There is some cause-and-effect relationship (rising heat becomes a cloud, gravity, etc.), but nothing is certain. Why do you deny or ignore it?

I am aware of its movement afterwards. It seems to work according to some system, but there is no controller. I am only aware of its existence.

But it still seems like I can control things and movement with my thoughts.

How is it possible that the world works by chance? What counts as functioning?

Just because I can't perceive it with my senses, there is still a sound that only a dog can hear. With limited senses, how could I find out how the world works, what the truth is?

Meanwhile, thoughts explain things subjectively, but this does not influence anything (this also arises by itself). Everything is the same, but no one controls anything...

And why am I writing this now? Do I want to control life with this too? Who?

Maybe you can answer my questions, because these are blind spots. I don't believe anything, you can also send me a question so I can investigate, find the answer, or the argument why these are not important. Just let the blind spot disappear.

[graceabounds]

You want a final model:
* chance vs system
* control vs no control
* who it happens to
* how the world works

That pulls you out of seeing. So I’m not going to answer those in a way that is at all satisfactory to the one who wants a solution. ;)

Who will it happen to if there is only life?

You assume if something happens, it must happen to someone!

Look again, right now:
Sound is happening.
Is it happening to someone
or just… happening?

Don’t answer conceptually. Check.

How is it possible that the world works by chance?

You want a single explanation that unifies everything, but in direct experience, there isn’t one.

There are just appearances:
* sometimes thought before action
* sometimes action before thought
* sometimes no relation at all

WHO wants there to be a formula? WHAT arises experientially when there is none?

WHY do you need to know? Look at that urge, the tension. The discomfort with not knowing… what do you find?