Looking for a guide

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
I just realized that I forgot to let you know that I'm away and I'll be back on Sunday. Both kids come to visit at this time of the year and we usually go away with each somewhere - this time to the beach. I will reply on Monday

I'm sorry about the delay!
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

This is really beautiful. You’re right at a very subtle threshold where the mind is trying its last refinements and it's being seen as they happen. Like this:

How is awareness different from what is?

Good. Don’t answer this from memory ... look.
Right now… A sound appears, a sensation appears, a thought appears. Now check very directly:
Is there “sound” + something else called “awareness of sound”?
Or is there just… sound happening?
If you can’t find a second thing called “awareness,” then what is awareness?
Don’t turn it into a concept. Look:
Can you locate awareness anywhere?
Can you separate it from what is appearing?
Or is “awareness” just a word pointing to the fact that experience is happening?
Stay there.

I think I gave you this video before but maybe I haven’t:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... 4&index=14

The result is a heavy, anxious silence of the mind. It feels like being asked a question in math class, in front of everyone, that you should know the answer to but don't.

Good. That means the mind is trying to solve this. But this is not a question to be answered.
It’s a question that exposes that there is no answerer. That “blank,” that “I don’t know”, don’t move away from it. Look again:
In that silence… is something missing?
Or is it just the absence of mental commentary?
And more directly… Is there a “someone” stuck there or just silence appearing?

When looking at “who is aware” the mind just blanks. It doesn’t know the answer. It hasn’t released the tension and realized no one is aware; it just is. I ask all the time and just sit in that blankness.

Exactly. Because there is no one there to know.
Now go one step further… When the thought “I don’t know” arises, check:
Is that thought any different from any other thought? Or is it just another appearance (like a sound)?
There is no special “meta layer” here. Just thoughts appearing, including the one that says “I can’t figure this out.”

A subtle but useful little shift happened too. There’s a sense of surrender. I was quietly contemplating all the bad things that could happen to my husband and really just trying to prepare/plan/control and then… it just stopped. What is just is and what will be will be and resistance is futile. The experience repeated itself surrounding the behaviour of a difficult family member who I chronically try to change. It happened on its own. No doer.

Notice carefully:
Did “you” surrender? Or did the efforting stop?
There’s no doer surrendering. There is just the absence of resistance, and then life continues.
Same with the family member:
Did you choose to let go? Or did the trying simply drop?
Look closely! This is showing you how everything already works without a self.

I certainly can’t find a separate self anywhere. I often feel like one, but that might just be a habit.

Yes!!
Feeling like a self ≠ being a self
That feeling is sensation plus a thought saying “this is me”. Nothing more. Check:
Does the feeling itself say “I am a person”?
Or does that come from thought?

Doubt is just thought too.

Exactly!! And notice…
Does doubt point to a real problem?
Or is it just another attempt to stabilize something?
It’s the same mechanism as: “Maybe I got it”, “Maybe I didn’t”, “Was that real?”
All of these are just thoughts trying to rebuild a center.

Now, stay very simple. Drop all frameworks for a moment. Right now:
Is there a separate self anywhere?
Is there anything outside of what is appearing?
Is there anything that is aware of this… separate from this?
Don’t answer mentally. Look.

And one final pointer:
You don’t need to resolve “awareness.” Just check:
Is there anything here that is not simply what is?
Stay with that not as a concept, but as a direct check.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

I hope you had a wonderful holiday with your kids!!! Where do South Africans go for holiday? I’m imagining a beautiful beach along the coast, but have genuinely no idea. :)

Currently on holiday too! In Mexico City. It’s spring break and western Canada got hit by second winter / apocalyptic rain storms. It’s really nice to get some sun, and Mexicans are some of the loveliest people on the planet.

Thanks for the video you sent. It did help clarify things, especially in that sense of what has been seen is right here, and not ‘out there’ somewhere, needing to be discovered and understood.

Right now… A sound appears, a sensation appears, a thought appears. Now check very directly:
Is there “sound” + something else called “awareness of sound”?
Or is there just… sound happening?
If you can’t find a second thing called “awareness,” then what is awareness?

I love this question and have been playing with it a lot lately. I can’t find awareness; I can only find sound.

There is recognition / interpretation / translation, but these are thoughts. The raw sounds are layers of notes; thought makes a tune out of music and meaning out of words.

Awareness is where the “I” lives. Awareness is separation from what is happening.

Can you locate awareness anywhere?
Can you separate it from what is appearing?
Or is “awareness” just a word pointing to the fact that experience is happening?

Awareness cannot be separated from anything or located anywhere.

I think I’m confused though. I look and see that it’s gone. I see that everything is just happening. I see that a self isn’t doing anything. And that’s good, it’s helpful, it’s freeing in a very minor way. The assumptions return when I stop looking. Whatever has shifted feels quite small.

But when I’ve had a few “glimpses” in the past few months and it felt like a profound shift in perception. It was OBVIOUS and profound. The assumption of a self seemed ludicrous. It was a whole new way of being in the world, a being without a centre.

You’ve said a few times that it is subtle and I have seen it… I believe you, but it also looks to me like there’s so much more.

Right now, when doing daily tasks of life, I’ve been noticing that this happens without a self. The words form questions and responses in conversation, the feet carry me from point A to point B. Decisions are made without interference, conditioned thoughts arise like they always do. It feels automatic and impersonal, but still so very subtle. I suppose time + working through the fetters + continuing the path of letting go and things will refine in time?

It’s a question that exposes that there is no answerer. That “blank,” that “I don’t know”, don’t move away from it. Look again:
In that silence… is something missing?
Or is it just the absence of mental commentary?
And more directly… Is there a “someone” stuck there or just silence appearing?

It feels more like silence appearing. The mind has no answer and doesn’t know where to go so it freezes. It can’t continue fabricating coherence.

I’m not sure that anything is missing… the sensation with it is that the mind has been caught. It hasn’t accepted that it doesn’t know the answer, but is at the moment where it’s about to be forced to admit it. The sense isn’t peaceful, but that frozen moment right after something shocking happens and right before everyone starts laughing to reduce the tension.

When the thought “I don’t know” arises, check:
Is that thought any different from any other thought? Or is it just another appearance (like a sound)?

It’s not really a thought - it’s just a blank. It feels like the mind has been caught not knowing something that it should know and the mind is completely shocked by this too.

Did “you” surrender? Or did the efforting stop?

I love the way you put this, thanks; that’s very helpful.

Efforting dropped. “I” did not cleverly realize I needed to surrender and then go ahead and do so. The efforting realized efforting was not necessary.

Did you choose to let go? Or did the trying simply drop?

The trying dropped.

That feeling is sensation plus a thought saying “this is me”. Nothing more. Check:
Does the feeling itself say “I am a person”?
Or does that come from thought?

It comes from thought. It’s just a quiet, background assumption. It’s not static; it changes. Sometimes there’s a strong assumption of self, and sometimes it’s virtually imperceptible.

Does doubt point to a real problem?
Or is it just another attempt to stabilize something?

Yeah…. Doubt is very mind based. Doubt is all thought. Doubt is the mind trying to explain what is happening and compare it to what “should” happen. Doubt is evaluating this process to see if it “worked” or not.

Is there a separate self anywhere?
Is there anything outside of what is appearing?
Is there anything that is aware of this… separate from this?

No, no, and no.

Is there anything here that is not simply what is?
Stay with that not as a concept, but as a direct check.

Just this.

I’m wondering where I am, on the path. There’s a feeling of increased mindfulness and presence, which is great but wasn’t what was expected.The territory doesn’t look like how I thought it would look and now I’m wondering what path I’ve set out on and where it’s heading.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
Mexico City sounds amazing. It’s so good when you can escape winter!
South African beaches are amazing – especially the ones with less population – pristine nature at its best. We had hippos and warthogs walking through the town, and we heard even rumours for leopard spotting. That town is unique in that, exactly how foreigners imagine South African cities – with wild life walking around :)))

What you’re describing here is actually very clean seeing. Not dramatic, not mystical but just simple, direct, and honest. And the fact that it feels subtle is exactly why the mind keeps questioning it.
Let’s go straight to the core of your question:

I’m wondering where I am, on the path.

That question only makes sense if there is: someone on a path; going somewhere; or/and toward something more complete than this
So let’s check. Right now what is there on a path? Lanie? Awareness?
Or is that just another thought appearing?
Path also requires time – a line going from the past to the future. Where exactly is that time line in DE? Or that is just another thought about progress?

Whatever has shifted feels quite small. But when I’ve had a few “glimpses” in the past few months and it felt like a profound shift in perception. It was OBVIOUS and profound. The assumption of a self seemed ludicrous. It was a whole new way of being in the world, a being without a centre. You’ve said a few times that it is subtle and I have seen it… I believe you, but it also looks to me like there’s so much more.

You noticed two things - glimpses that felt obvious, undeniable, almost dramatic; and quiet, subtle, almost underwhelming seeing
The mind prefers the first because it feels like progress. But those are states and they come and go.
How is it possible to "maintain" something in the now? Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state.

Furthermore, to “improve” suggest that there is something wrong with this right now, like it can be different than what it IS. But can it be in a different way than it is now, perfect? Also that suggests there is a doer who makes things happen. Are you doing anything in order to be? Do you need to do anything in order to be? Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away? Do you need to survive in order to be?

So...Are you after a state? That is peaceful? Or a state that feels good? Or feels different than being Lanie? Is there perhaps an expectation that it must be seen 24/7? That it's not real seeing if it's not 24/7? Can you zoom onto that seeking energy... and see what is it made of? What is seeking made of?

Seeking means that I'm searching FOR something. What is that? What is it really that is being sought? What is not there now that you expected to be there? Or what is there that you expected to be gone?
Many people expect to stay in an altered state forever. This is never the case. The shift is an altered state, but it passes. Then you will be back to your baseline experience, minus the me. Coming back to your former baseline state, minus the illusion that just fell away, will happen in every belief that is seen through. I am sorry to disappoint, but you will never end up in a permanently altered state, a permanent high. It is always, “And now chop wood and carry water”. Should you doubt that the self-illusion is gone, start all over again with a beginner’s mind.

Here’s the thing: those "amazing" experiences, whether through meditation or drugs like LSD, are just chemical reactions in the "brain" . They’re natural. They come and go. But the moment you give them importance, the moment you start to crave them, you’ve lost the game. There’s nothing spiritual about these experiences—they’re just chemical side effects, the result of changes, of thought self-organising. Yet people chase them, thinking they’re achieving something profound, when in reality, they’re sinking deeper into the illusion. The key to freedom isn’t found in some higher state or in enlightenment. It’s in recognizing that there is nothing to attain - thought self-organising. The very mechanics of the mind, the endless striving for more, is what keeps you from seeing that you are already a perfect expression of just this.

What you’re describing now is different (the second type):

Right now, when doing daily tasks of life, I’ve been noticing that this happens without a self. The words form questions and responses in conversation, the feet carry me from point A to point B. Decisions are made without interference, conditioned thoughts arise like they always do.

That’s not a state. That’s just how things always were (minus the me) but now seen more clearly.
Nothing new has been added. Something false is just not being believed as strongly.

It’s not really a thought - it’s just a blank. It feels like the mind has been caught not knowing something that it should know and the mind is completely shocked by this too.

Yes. That “blank” is not a problem. It’s what’s left when the mind can’t fabricate a self fast enough.
Notice… No answer appears. No “me” steps in. Just silence. The mind interprets that as confusion, incompleteness, “I should know this”. But actually, that’s just the absence of a fabricated center.

So here’s the key thing you’re missing (subtly). You keep saying:

“It feels small.”, “It’s subtle.”, “There must be more.”

Look carefully. That comparison is always happening in thought. Thought compares past “profound” experiences, imagined future states, and expectations of awakening, and then says “This isn’t enough.”
But right now… Is anything missing from this? Or is the sense of “something missing” just another thought?

So where are you on the path?
Let’s remove the story completely. At the moment:

• No self can be found

• No awareness separate from experience

• Thoughts arise on their own

• Actions happen on their own

• Doubt is seen as thought

So what exactly is left to get?
Don’t answer conceptually — look.
Next time the thought appears “This is too subtle”, “There must be more”, “Where am I?”, check:
Is that thought any different from the others?
Or is it just another appearance — like a sound?
And then:
Without that thought… what’s lacking right now?
You’re not heading somewhere. You’re seeing that there never was a “someone” to head anywhere.
Let that land quietly. No fireworks needed.

Once you stop trying to manipulate life with your thoughts, once you stop wasting your energy chasing illusions, you will find that life moves forward naturally (flow). There is no need to seek a higher state or transcend your material existence. There is just life itself, already complete. That’s the secret: stop playing the losing game of chasing enlightenment. Let life unfold as it is, free from the filters of thought and the illusions of the mind. Only then will it will be seen that there was never anything to attain in the first place.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Sorry for the delay; it’s been a hard week. Some pretty major stuff has been going wrong and I haven’t been able to meditate or look properly until today.

Right now what is there on a path? Lanie? Awareness?
Or is that just another thought appearing?
Path also requires time – a line going from the past to the future. Where exactly is that time line in DE? Or that is just another thought about progress?

I can see this clearly. The path is just a concept that is dependent on another concept. And expectations of what it “should” look like are just thoughts and comparisons. I can see that I came to this with expectations and fantasies and a lot of desire, and that it’s pretty hard to set all of that aside.

But I’m confused about what has been accomplished and why it matters. I can see that awareness is an illusion, and doership is an illusion. I can see that there’s a tiny bit of freedom in that and a tiny bit of immediacy and presence.

But… I was hoping for the end of suffering. I was hoping to put aside the push and pull on reality, and the efforting that goes along with the illusion of control.

I think maybe my question is if the path goes there, and through continual unwinding, it ends up in places like this? Or I feel like this is me trying to find things outside, rather than just what’s here. I’m feeling quite lost still.

How is it possible to "maintain" something in the now?

Yeah, that’s clearly a thought or a lens. There’s only now and maintenance doesn’t really make sense.

But can it be in a different way than it is now, perfect? Also that suggests there is a doer who makes things happen. Are you doing anything in order to be? Do you need to do anything in order to be? Do you need to hold on to being, because it can slip away? Or it can be taken away? Do you need to survive in order to be?

Is it perfect, though? There’s a lot of suffering. I can see that the reflexive belief in “I” and “control” is contributing to the suffering massively, even as they are seen to be empty concepts.

I like these questions. And if things need to change, that does imply that someone can do something to change it, which isn’t the case. But if things DON’T need to change…. There’s a lot of dissatisfaction here right now, and resistance, and exhaustion.

Are you after a state? That is peaceful? Or a state that feels good? Or feels different than being Lanie? Is there perhaps an expectation that it must be seen 24/7? That it's not real seeing if it's not 24/7? Can you zoom onto that seeking energy... and see what is it made of? What is seeking made of?

I know nothing is permanent and life still continues, with all of its ups and downs, and that spiritual highs are just a nice part of the path and ultimately there is balance.

But - and this is a thought, sorry - what I’ve experienced has been very temporary, fleeting, and there has been huge spaces (months!) between experiences. It makes it seem like a glimpse rather than a shift. The (thought based) expectation is that if this was a real shift, and not a glimpse, that there might be more access to this type of obvious seeing. I don’t need to live in it 24/7, but if it’s there, it should be accessible when conditions are right, right?

Seeking is an energy that feels a little bit like anxiety and curiosity and determination. It’s also combined with a thought that there is something to seek and something worth finding.

Seeking means that I'm searching FOR something. What is that? What is it really that is being sought? What is not there now that you expected to be there? Or what is there that you expected to be gone?

The end of suffering, which I know doesn’t mean pain, or grief, or loss, but does mean the end of resistance and grasping and control. Right now there are a lot of these things and they are very painful. I want to end the battle with reality and fighting against what just is. I want to stop fighting against a sense of self. I want to stop trying to control things, or just trying in general.

Look carefully. That comparison is always happening in thought. Thought compares past “profound” experiences, imagined future states, and expectations of awakening, and then says “This isn’t enough.”
But right now… Is anything missing from this? Or is the sense of “something missing” just another thought?

Yeah….but….

It seems that there is so much more here to discover. There’s so much more that can unwind, to be more present, to drop more concepts, to understand with more immediacy and access, to see more clearly.

So where are you on the path?
Let’s remove the story completely. At the moment:
No self can be found
No awareness separate from experience
Thoughts arise on their own
Actions happen on their own
Doubt is seen as thought

So what exactly is left to get?

True.

Seeing those things is clear, and strange and interesting. There is surprise that it hasn’t had a signficant impact on the way I operate in the world. I meant it has but in a really subtle way.

I thought that grasping and control would loosen. And maybe they are loosening, although right now they feel really strong.

Next time the thought appears “This is too subtle”, “There must be more”, “Where am I?”, check:
Is that thought any different from the others?
Or is it just another appearance — like a sound?
And then:
Without that thought… what’s lacking right now?

It is a thought, and a pretty entrenched expectation.

And without the thought I am just here and it’s okay.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
This is such an honest place you’re in, where expectations are meeting what’s actually being seen. That friction is important. Let’s go very directly.

I was hoping for the end of suffering.

Good. Stay with that. Not the idea of it, but the actual experience of that expectation.
The house of suffering is built on unfulfilled expectations, unmet wants and desires. Wanting “more” is the flip side of lacking “something”. Wanting is a sign that something is incomplete, or missing. But have a look at this differently - wanting more is just that—wanting. Spontaneous actions are happening, and so is the thought story. There is an expectations that thoughts would change on the spot and stop insisting that this is your suffering, your responsibility to fix it. And that will happen but not in general. It will happen with seeing every specific case (unchecked beliefs)
Suffering (resistance to THIS – not seeing it as perfect the way it is) is a very good tool in finding unchecked beliefs and there are plenty of these. That provides you with an opportunity for observation every time…
Does the sense of self appears simultaneously with the resistance to what is? Notice that "you" are not the person who suffers but "you" arises simultaneously with the struggle/resistance that generates the “suffering”.
Is there an “I” that engages with the “wants”? Is there a doer that responds to the wants?
What is that “want” made of?
Is it tension? Tightness? Forward-leaning energy?

Staying in the gap of the “want” is an opportunity for the thought to reorganise around what really is happening. Seeing the conditioned thoughts that arise with the sensations, checking their validity (is this really happening??) – just noticing, staying in being. If there is action to be taken it will take itself – like the want to eat would resolve in “you” going to the fridge… If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it. If not, just watch, smile, take notes, and release. For a day or two, just watch the wanting that comes up.
In what area does it show up the most? Where is the biggest lack felt?
You don’t need to do anything but notice and acknowledge. Watch what happens, and notice how it feels. Feel the gap between wanting and not having, and observe what sensations are triggered when wanting appears. Bringing attention to the mechanism of wanting will reveal curious things.

That is the “seeking.” That is the “suffering.” Not life. Not your husband. Not circumstances.
That movement.

You’re waiting for something to remove that automatically. This is the subtle trap – you think that if there is proper seeing then:

grasping and control would loosen.

But look:
Is grasping something you are doing? Or is it just another appearance — like a sensation, like a thought?
Right now, when grasping appears… Is there a “graspers” — or just grasping happening?
The disappointment is the clue. You said:

There is surprise that it hasn’t had a significant impact on the way I operate in the world. I meant it has but in a really subtle way.

Good. Stay there. What is this expectation protecting?
Look very honestly:
Who needs this to feel different?
Can that one be found?
Or is it just another thought… claiming authority?
The story is there alright, but is there a storyteller?

You’re still subtly negotiating. There are two conflicting thoughts:

without the thought I am just here and it’s okay.

And yet:

But… there’s more… it should deepen… things should unwind…

So basically: “I’ll accept this… if it eventually gives me what I want.”
See that?
That’s the last layer of control.
You’re not missing anything , you’re resisting THIS. Not in a dramatic way, but in a very refined, almost invisible way.
Right now there exhaustion, resistance, and dissatisfaction. And something says “This shouldn’t be here if this is real.”
That’s the only problem. So don’t fix it, look at it! Right now, look directly into the actual sensations…
This “dissatisfaction” — does it say “I am wrong”?
This “resistance” — does it say “I shouldn’t be”?
This “exhaustion” — does it say “fix me”?
Or do those meanings come from thought?
And this:

It seems that there is so much more here to discover.

Yes, things can continue to unfold (as various beliefs come to the surface to be seen), but notice that “There is more to discover” feels very different from: “This is not enough yet.”
One is curiosity and sense of adventure. The other is lack.
Which one is operating right now? :)

You’re not stuck. This is the moment when the mind realizes: “I can’t use this to get somewhere.” And it doesn’t like that. So let it not like it and give up. Nothing has gone wrong.

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for your questions. These were insightful and provocative in a good way.

Suffering (resistance to THIS – not seeing it as perfect the way it is) is a very good tool in finding unchecked beliefs and there are plenty of these. That provides you with an opportunity for observation every time…
Does the sense of self appears simultaneously with the resistance to what is?

I like this pointer. Finding resistance is a really valuable way of letting the energy out of things. This is really helpful.

And yes, there’s a self in resistance. It’s really useful asking “who is this happening to” or “who is resisting” and really looking, and seeing that the suffering is energy sensations + thoughts + assumptions that the thoughts are “mine.” Dissolve the “mine” and the thoughts and the energy don’t really stick together in the same way anymore.

I find myself resisting the characterization of what is as “perfect.” It is what it is, and I suppose it can’t be any other way, but my own value judgements might go to “neutral” at most. I don’t see how it’s perfect.

Is there an “I” that engages with the “wants”? Is there a doer that responds to the wants?
What is that “want” made of?
Is it tension? Tightness? Forward-leaning energy?

It’s resistance again, and rejection of what is happening.

There certainly is a sense of self and a sense of doer engaging with the want. An assumption of the mind that “this will be beneficial” and “this should be wanted” and a projection of a self and a doer and a wanter.

There is an energy leading towards an idea or a thought, and then a lot of thought chains and assumptions to do the selfing and the acting and the assuming.

For a day or two, just watch the wanting that comes up.
In what area does it show up the most? Where is the biggest lack felt?

There’s a lot of chaos in my life at the moment, and a strong desire for stability. Even thinking the word stability, I feel a sense of calm come over the body and a feeling of “yes” and the energy to move into whatever direction needed to find it. There’s a strong craving for the idea of stability, and fantasy images of what that looks like. But who chose this? Who is saying yes? Who is generating energy in that direction? They’re just appearing.

Is grasping something you are doing? Or is it just another appearance — like a sensation, like a thought?
Right now, when grasping appears… Is there a “graspers” — or just grasping happening?

Grasping is just happening. Grasping and craving and resistance seem to be more or less the same things. They all create a sense of self. They all combine thoughts and sensations. They all result in suffering.

What is this expectation protecting? (of seeing no-self having an impact on daily life)
Look very honestly:
Who needs this to feel different?
Can that one be found?
Or is it just another thought… claiming authority?
The story is there alright, but is there a storyteller?

There’s a lot of story around whether I’m capable of handling life and managing everything I need to manage. I feel inferior and insecure and like I need something to make me better; to make me superhuman, impervious to pain, and to guarantee that I can do this because the story says in my current state, I can’t. And this story has been believed for a long time.

When I ask who needs to feel superhuman, there’s no one there; just a previously unquestioned assumption.

So basically: “I’ll accept this… if it eventually gives me what I want.”
See that?

Yeah. There’s a lot of self identity in that.

I’m still wondering what I get out of all of this though. (I know that’s not the right way to word it.) Sometimes I feel like I’m still at the same place I started. Other times I feel like I’m in truly alien territory.

From what I can see, if you can see through self, you can see through the selfing in stories, and the stories lose their hold, which has a lot of freedom. Seeing through self is the first step, and then seeing through the self in places with resistance and grasping brings freedom to those areas.

This “dissatisfaction” — does it say “I am wrong”?
This “resistance” — does it say “I shouldn’t be”?
This “exhaustion” — does it say “fix me”?
Or do those meanings come from thought?

These are really interesting questions that I’ve been toying with a lot lately. Sometimes the thought and the sensation seem completely fused and inseparable… but they can separate. I’m wondering if when they are fused, it’s because there’s selfing providing the glue, and when that’s seen through, they are able to separate. They might still co-occur, but they can be seen as two different phenomena at the same time. When they are two, they are much easier to hold. They don’t launch thought chains or emotional spirals.

There is more to discover” feels very different from: “This is not enough yet.”
One is curiosity and sense of adventure. The other is lack.
Which one is operating right now?

It sure shifts between the two. Right now I feel mildly curious. Ten minutes ago not so much.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie,
This is really clean seeing.
Let’s go straight to what’s alive in your message.

I don’t see how it’s perfect.

Good. Don’t adopt “perfect” as a belief. Forget the word. Look instead:
Right now … can this be other than it is?
Not philosophically, but actually.
Can the resistance be different? Can the exhaustion be different? Can the craving for stability be different?
Or is all of that… already happening as it is?
“Perfect” just points to that. “Perfect” is not about the story – the best outcome in the scenario – it’s about the fact that it can’t be any other way then how it is - just THIS (just waves in the ocean). Without the story (of others, of trauma, of responsibilities, etc), what is wrong with THIS? Is it not just perfect, always just THIS?
But the word itself isn’t important, it’s easily resisted.

You saw something very important about wanting:

I feel a sense of calm come over the body and a feeling of “yes” and the energy to move into whatever direction needed to find it. There’s a strong craving for the idea of stability, and fantasy images of what that looks like. But who chose this? Who is saying yes? Who is generating energy in that direction? They’re just appearing.

Stay here. Don’t move away from this. That whole structure of image of stability, body softening, “yes” energy, movement toward it, all of that appears together. Now look carefully:
Where exactly is the one who owns that movement?
Is there anything there besides sensation and thought?

Grasping and craving and resistance seem to be more or less the same things. They all create a sense of self.

Flip it and look again.
Does grasping create a self…or does a thought label the grasping as “mine”?
Without the label, is there a “self”? OR or just tightness, movement, energy?

I feel inferior and insecure and like I need something to make me better; to make me superhuman, impervious to pain, and to guarantee that I can do this because the story says in my current state, I can’t. And this story has been believed for a long time.

This is a big one, and you saw right through it! Now don’t analyse the story, but go underneath it.
When that thought appears, what is felt in the body? Where is the contraction? What is the raw texture?
Stay there and then check…
Does that sensation say “you are not enough”?
Or does that come from thought?

I’m still wondering what I get out of all of this though. (I know that’s not the right way to word it.) Sometimes I feel like I’m still at the same place I started. Other times I feel like I’m in truly alien territory.

Let’s be very direct. That question assumes that there is a “you”, who will gain something in the future as a result of this?!
Check right now:
Is there anyone here who can “get” something from this?
Or is that just another thought… promising a reward?
Thoughts are self-organising at sticking better to DE – just thoughts/labels instead of thoughts about thoughts about thoughts. So who benefits of that self-organisation? The organisation itself? Are you it? Are you thoughts? :)

“You” are not at the same place
Thought says: “Maybe nothing changed.”, and that is true – nothing changed in DE, just the story keeps evolving. Look at what “you” are doing now. “You” are seeing thoughts as thoughts, seeing grasping as impersonal, questioning ownership in real time, noticing how identity forms, watching stories lose grip.
Was this available before?
Be honest.

From what I can see, if you can see through self, you can see through the selfing in stories, and the stories lose their hold, which has a lot of freedom. Seeing through self is the first step, and then seeing through the self in places with resistance and grasping brings freedom to those areas.

Yes, exactly! Once the illusion of the formation of self is seen in general (i.e. the shift), it’s much easier to spot it in specific “situations” (aka beliefs) - in a specific belief or category of beliefs (e.g. fetters). The shift is an altered state, but it passes and then you will be back to your baseline experience, minus the me. Coming back to your former baseline state, minus the illusion that just fell away, will happen in every fetter or every belief that is seen through. It’s a never ending process (numerous beliefs) of streamlining the story about DE.

Sometimes the thought and the sensation seem completely fused and inseparable… but they can separate. I’m wondering if when they are fused, it’s because there’s selfing providing the glue, and when that’s seen through, they are able to separate.

This is a really sharp observation. Yes. And notice:
What is the “glue”?
Look very closely.
Is it a belief? Is it identification? Is it the word “mine”?
Just another thought appearing that says “this is happening to me”?

It’s all just very, very simple! Look! There is a sensation, a thought, maybe resistance, maybe curiosity, but now check:
Is there anything here that is you… outside of that?
Actually.

Just keep looking exactly like this.
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Lanie
I just wanted to let you know that I'm flying today and tomorrow so I will be able to answer after Friday

Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

Have a safe flight! Hope you're going somewhere beautiful and sunny. :)

Once the illusion of the formation of self is seen in general (i.e. the shift), it’s much easier to spot it in specific “situations” (aka beliefs) - in a specific belief or category of beliefs (e.g. fetters). The shift is an altered state, but it passes and then you will be back to your baseline experience, minus the me. Coming back to your former baseline state, minus the illusion that just fell away, will happen in every fetter or every belief that is seen through. It’s a never ending process (numerous beliefs) of streamlining the story about DE.

Thank you! This was what I was trying to ask about “the path” and your answer here is what I suspected.

And I think beliefs are sort of dropping, by themselves. There is no doer. There’s a lot of grief in dropping a belief, even if there is a sense of healing that accompanies it. It’s like the hope, the striving, the energy that the belief necessitated suddenly has nowhere to go and no purpose. And strangely, it feels incredibly sad about that.

I’ve experienced what you said about a shift and then a return to baseline experience. I’ve experienced that a lot, and over the span of the last few years. It hasn’t lined up with the fetters, but there was a feeling of something falling away and feeling euphoric for a little while, and then feeling normal, but with 2% more freedom, or 2% more internal space. This has happened ~ten or so times.

It’s a bit of a double edged sword. I seem to have a lot more space for grief. That presence, which really intensifies joy and peace, also intensifies fear and loss and pain. Or maybe there’s just more ability to feel it directly and less running away. Everything feels much more intense.

Don’t adopt “perfect” as a belief. Forget the word. Look instead:
Right now … can this be other than it is?

No, it can’t.

Can the resistance be different? Can the exhaustion be different? Can the craving for stability be different?
Or is all of that… already happening as it is?

It’s just happening.

Without the story (of others, of trauma, of responsibilities, etc), what is wrong with THIS? Is it not just perfect, always just THIS?

Without the story, THIS is more bearable, certainly.

Are you calling it perfect because it’s unchangeable, so may as well make the best of it? I still feel more like a victim of it. And maybe that’s just evidence that thoughts are sneaking in.

Where exactly is the one who owns that movement? (Of "yes" energy; moving towards wanting)
Is there anything there besides sensation and thought?

You’re right, it’s just sensation and thought.

Wants are so tricky!!! It is really hard to believe that it is just sensation and thought. The belief is strong. Wants probably start when we’re babies, before we even have a sense of self. Maybe the wanting is what leads to us thinking we are a self.

Does grasping create a self…or does a thought label the grasping as “mine”?
Without the label, is there a “self”? OR or just tightness, movement, energy?

It’s energy. A lot of energy, like a hurricane, but just energy circling around something that doesn’t exist. Wanting and grasping are capable of starting elaborate thought chains of injustice, planning, jealousy, guilt. It can spiral very quickly.

When that thought appears, what is felt in the body? Where is the contraction? What is the raw texture?
Stay there and then check…
Does that sensation say “you are not enough”?
Or does that come from thought?

It’s a thought.

It’s amazing, and would be unbelievable if I hadn’t experienced it so many times, that sitting with the raw energy calms the story as much as it does, and sometimes seems to discourage the story from coming back at all.

Is there anyone here who can “get” something from this?
Or is that just another thought… promising a reward?

Yeah….

I see a mental image of a seed planted in the ground and when it sprouts, it somehow manages to determine which way is up and starts travelling towards the sun. The seed isn’t seeking the sun, and it doesn’t have a self to choose a direction or to understand the benefits. Something a bit more fundamental and energetic and rooted in physics (I think) causes the seed to travel in a direction. Seeking enlightenment is the same. The seeking energy is not mine; it’s something more fundamental. A sense of self can grab onto it, but that is just an illusion.

Thoughts are self-organising at sticking better to DE – just thoughts/labels instead of thoughts about thoughts about thoughts. So who benefits of that self-organisation? The organisation itself? Are you it? Are you thoughts? :)

There’s not usually any benefit. A self might develop a sense of control through thoughts. They can feed various narratives a person has, and narratives are deeply addictive. And no, I’m not thoughts.

“You” are seeing thoughts as thoughts, seeing grasping as impersonal, questioning ownership in real time, noticing how identity forms, watching stories lose grip.
Was this available before?

No, there was a lot of confusion before and a lot of identification with thoughts.

Thoughts need to be held loosely.

They program themselves much like the algorithms to maximize engagement…. And they tend to be repetitive because of this, playing the greatest hits again and again.

Are thoughts best… ignored??

Separating thoughts from sensations seems really helpful in breaking the “stickiness” of anxiety or anger or other difficult things. Maybe stopping thought chains might be the most important key here. With my husband’s illness, having thought labels on what is happening are innocuous enough, but allowing the label to spawn a whole world of danger and chaos would be a problem. So maybe being aware when thoughts start to spiral, and don’t demonize, but keep things more minimal?

What is the “glue”?
Look very closely.
Is it a belief? Is it identification? Is it the word “mine”?
Just another thought appearing that says “this is happening to me”?

Just an assumption or a belief that this is happening to me. An assumption of self.

It’s all just very, very simple! Look! There is a sensation, a thought, maybe resistance, maybe curiosity, but now check:
Is there anything here that is you… outside of that?

Nope. It is pretty simple. :)

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie
You’re seeing a lot at once here:

The belief drops by itself.
The grief around losing the belief is felt.
The extra space is real.
And the intensity of life is still fully here.

This is huge!

Are you calling it perfect because it’s unchangeable, so may as well make the best of it? I still feel more like a victim of it. And maybe that’s just evidence that thoughts are sneaking in.

“Perfect” is not as “pleasant,” and not as “may as well make the best of it”, but more like ... It can’t be other than it is, here, now. Not an approval, not neutral acceptance, not liking it. Just no second version of this moment exists. All of these alternative scenarios and appraisals of the current moment exist only as thoughts. The moment is perfect because it can’t be other than it is at the moment - the result of all causes and conditions, the right (not good or bad but the accurate) outcome. That is on a story level, on a DE level nothing has meaning in the first place, so it is perfect (icons on a desktop). On a DE level there are colours, sounds … and not even that - just THIS with no meaning. “No meaning” can’t be good or bad because even good or bad is meaning - it’s just 0’s and 1’s. The victim feeling comes from the story layered on top. You already saw that. Without the story, this is more bearable. That’s the clue.
You also saw something important about wanting:

It’s energy. A lot of energy, like a hurricane, but just energy circling around something that doesn’t exist. Wanting and grasping are capable of starting elaborate thought chains of injustice, planning, jealousy, guilt. It can spiral very quickly.

Yes, just energy. Then thought says: “I want.”,“I need.”,“This will save me.”, “This is happening to me.” That’s the glue. Not the sensation itself and not the energy itself, but just the assumption of ownership. Remember… thoughts are just a commentary not a driving force (no intention). The raw energy is just that (like being hungry and eating). “Wanting” could also be seen as a resistance - a resistance to the current moment, wishing it was different than how it is. In the case of being hungry, the resistance is survival of the “organism”, and it leads to you getting up and going to the fridge :) - no doer and no planner.
And no, thoughts do not need to be ignored. That would just become another strategy, another controller project. Better to see them lightly. A useful thought is fine. A label is fine. “He is struggling at work” is fine. But when thought starts breeding thought and building a whole universe of danger, identity, injustice, future catastrophe — that is where the stickiness comes in.
So not “ignore thoughts.” More like… Let the first label be a label. Don’t let it become a courthouse. You said this beautifully yourself:

thoughts need to be held loosely.

That’s it.
And this part was especially clean:

Just another thought appearing that says ‘this is happenng to ime’?

Yes. Exactly that. That is the whole mechanism; a sensation appears., a thought appears. Then another thought says ‘mine’ and suffering thickens. When “mine” is seen through, the sensation and thought can still co-occur, but they don’t bind the same way. That’s why sitting with raw energy helps so much. Not because “you” are healing it, but because the story loses fuel. So maybe just keep one simple check close at hand. When something hooks hard, ask:
What is here before the word “mine”?
You are not asking this to get rid of anything, but just to see what is actually present.
Great! You’re watching the machinery in real time. That’s a big deal, even if it feels simple.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

It can’t be other than it is, here, now. Not an approval, not neutral acceptance, not liking it. Just no second version of this moment exists. All of these alternative scenarios and appraisals of the current moment exist only as thoughts.

I'm noting my own conditioning and religious upbringing. The belief that "God thinks you / society is bad and should be better” goes really deep. There is an engrained hesitancy to accept things as they are and deep difficulty in accepting suffering and injustice. I can see that people who cause pain can't be different than they are. Systems that cause pain also can't be different.

But still… starving children and warming oceans and violent rhetoric… is the pattern the same; let the resistance energy rise and then let it dissipate? I can see that it is what it is, and anything else it could be is a thought, but so much of what is contains so much suffering. The universe seems to be cold and dispassionate, not perfect.

Then another thought says ‘mine’ and suffering thickens. When “mine” is seen through, the sensation and thought can still co-occur, but they don’t bind the same way. That’s why sitting with raw energy helps so much.

Yeah…. This is so true and is proved true time and time again.

Why does it take so long?? Sometimes it’s honestly weeks of sitting with something, and then there’s a shift. Literal weeks of feeling this heavy, painful energy that’s just so big. And then it just leaves.

I’ve also been practicing this actively for several years now, and you’d think everything would be processed by now, but nope.

I know this is a thought, but I’m a bit worried that when stuff comes up to be processed I’m fixating on it and attaching to it and preventing it from moving through.

I think the thing to keep looking for is "who is this happening to" and "who owns this feeling" and seeing that there's no owner, no main character in a story, and keep looking through that.

What is here before the word “mine”?

Energy and sensations.

[poppyseed]

Hi Lanie

Stop right there. Don’t move past this:

Energy and sensations.

Stay exactly there. Now look again, very precisely:
That heavy, painful energy you say lasts for weeks, does the energy itself say “this should be gone by now”?
Or does that come from thought?
That same energy, does it say “I am being processed”?
Or is that another layer added on top?
You’re still sneaking in a manager. “Processing.” “Should be finished.” “I might be blocking it.”
What/who is doing that?
That’s the same structure wearing a more spiritual costume. Look at this part carefully:

I’m a bit worried that when stuff comes up to be processed I’m fixating on it and attaching to it and preventing it from moving through.

Right now — in direct experience — can you find anything that is holding the sensation in place?
Or is there jus sensation, thought about sensation, another thought claiming responsibility
Nothing is stuck. There is just:
this → this → this
Even the “weeks” — check that.
Where are those weeks right now?
Is there anything here except: current sensation, current thought saying “this has been here for weeks”
No timeline in experience. Only a story about duration. Now go to the deeper edge you’re circling:

Starving children. War. Suffering.

Don’t go conceptual. Stay raw.
When you think of that, what appears right now?
Not the world. Not the situation.
What appears here?
Is it anything other than images, sensations (tightness, heaviness, contraction), thoughts about injustice
And then …. where is the one that this is happening to?
Not philosophically. Right now. Because the pattern is identical. Small personal pain, global suffering - same mechanism:
sensation + thought → “this is happening to me / this shouldn’t be”
And that conditioning you mentioned — “this should be better”
Good. See it and don’t try to remove it. Right now:
Without the thought “this should be different”… what is left of the sensation?
Stay there. There is no fixing, no processing, no timeline. Just this.
Answer from there, not from thought.
Love
Rali

[LanieRO]

Hi Rali,

That heavy, painful energy you say lasts for weeks, does the energy itself say “this should be gone by now”?
Or does that come from thought?
That same energy, does it say “I am being processed”?
Or is that another layer added on top?
You’re still sneaking in a manager. “Processing.” “Should be finished.” “I might be blocking it.”
What/who is doing that?

There’s certainly a manager-self active right now. It is made of thoughts and beliefs and assumptions of control. I can see it’s just thoughts. I’m not believing them (now) but they can certainly be convincing.

can you find anything that is holding the sensation in place?
Or is there just sensation, thought about sensation, another thought claiming responsibility

Just sensation and thoughts about sensation. A lot of old beliefs surrounding depression are coming up as well, and all those beliefs require a self who can pull itself out of its current headspace. These beliefs are resistance to what is and this resistance is softening as the beliefs are seen through.

Where are those weeks right now?
Is there anything here except: current sensation, current thought saying “this has been here for weeks”

Those weeks are thoughts. I see what you mean about icons on the screen when it comes to the concept of weeks, but I also don’t know that I understand the importance of seeing that. It has been weeks, which is hard. But I also see at this exact moment, in my DE, things are okay. I’m typing this out, I’m calm, I’m comfortable. “Weeks of misery” is a sort of oversimplification.

When you think of that, (suffering) what appears right now?
Not the world. Not the situation.
What appears here?
Is it anything other than images, sensations (tightness, heaviness, contraction), thoughts about injustice
And then …. where is the one that this is happening to?

There’s grief, or anger, a tightening in the chest and jaw. Thought chains form.

These reactions aren’t chosen. They are a result of conditioned experiences, and they’re just happening.

Because the pattern is identical. Small personal pain, global suffering - same mechanism:
sensation + thought → “this is happening to me / this shouldn’t be”
And that conditioning you mentioned — “this should be better”
Good. See it and don’t try to remove it. Right now:
Without the thought “this should be different”… what is left of the sensation?

This was really interesting to me. I really liked your response here. Initially, looking at it like this seemed like bypassing or at the very least, grossly insensitive, but it sort of clicked now. It’s still just happening in this consciousness. Just because I feel empathy, I don’t get a new consciousness - it’s still just happening right here. And the sensations are just sensations. It’s….profoundly internal but also decentralized at the same time.

It seems that sensations need thought to refresh themselves, otherwise they burn out pretty quickly… is that true?

[poppyseed]

Hey Lanie
Good! Don’t move into theory.

Do sensations need thought to refresh themselves?

Look directly, not by reasoning. At this moment, take any sensation present - maybe tightness in the chest, jaw, subtle unease, or even neutrality. Check!
Without adding a single thought… does the sensation stay exactly the same?
Or does it flicker, shift, pulse, change intensity, move location?
Look closely. Bring in thought deliberately: “this is bad… this shouldn’t be happening… this has been here for weeks…” Watch what happens.
Does the sensation intensify, stabilize into something more solid, become more “defined”?
What’s actually happening?
Is thought “refreshing” the sensation?
Or is thought:
naming it → fixing it → looping it → making it feel continuous
Look again at your own words:

Weeks of misery is an oversimplification.

Exactly. Because without the story, there is no “week-long sensation.” There are only momentary appearances, constantly changing. Thought stitches them together into “this same thing has been here forever”. That’s the illusion of continuity.
Now go deeper… When sensation is left alone — truly alone — does it need to go away?
Or does it naturally move? Don’t answer from memory. Look in real time.
And this part you saw is crucial:

Just because I feel empathy, I don’t get a new consciousness — it’s still just happening right here.

Yes. So when grief about the world appears, is the world here? Or is it image + sensation + thought… here?
Same pattern. No exception.
That sensation you called “grief” or “anger”, before the label lands… what is it?
Love
Rali