Silent echo

[gildedGlitch]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this to be that the person I believe myself to be - my thoughts, conditioning, memories, beliefs, body and sensations - is not who I really am. I've had some small glimpses/understandings of this over the past year, but they've never stayed. My identity is strong and I would like to see through it. Experientially, not intellectually.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for guidance to help me see through the illusions that I am deeply enmeshed in. What I would really like to find is a teacher... maybe eventually, but I know that this is not the place for that. However, I think maybe that this would be a good stepping stone to something else later down the road.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to converse with someone who is farther along, experientially, to point things out that I probably miss. I don't know that I can do this on my own... I've been trying, but it's tough because I simply know that I don't know. I expect some understanding, compassion, sincerity and authenticity. Also patience.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been practicing meditation on my own. I recently attended a 10 Day Silent Vipassana Retreat. In that retreat I experienced something, but I don't know what. I've been actively seeking for the past year and have tried to do inquiry, but I don't know that I'm doing things right.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

What did the "glimpse" feel like?

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[gildedGlitch]

Hi Stacy, very nice to meet you through the interwebs. And thank you for being here, for being available and open to this. I appreciate your time and help with all this.

You can call me Irina. My time zone is USA - Eastern Time.

What did the "glimpse" feel like?

It felt like freedom. It felt like eternal peace and infinite possibility. It felt like clarity and intelligence. It felt timeless. It felt like lightness in both body and mind. It felt like home. It felt like I was just a visitor here and I could do whatever I wanted to with ease during my time here. It felt like if my body passed away, I was going to be all right anyway. It felt unifying.

How will life change?

I can't deny that I've had a lot fantasies about how life would change. But the more I read, listen and try to intellectually understand, the more I realize that life wouldn't really change. I had developed a lot of fantasies and expectations within the past year and have had to let many of them go over the past months. Letting these go and accepting reality has been a little hard and somewhat depressing at times, but strangely/paradoxically also freeing.

However, I still cling to a belief that even though life wouldn't change, how I go through it would. Like there would just be a natural flow through it. Little to no focus on control and outcomes, more on actually living and accepting things fully.

How will you change?

I think I would still be the same Irina - the same persona that is currently typing this out. Just operating from a different point of view - similar to the answer above. This is partly from the glimps(es) I’ve had, but also from a lot of what I’ve read and heard about from others.

What will be different?

The perspective on life would be different. Maybe there would be more alignment with things and people. The way I relate to people may be different. Less judgment, more acceptance and discernment towards myself and others.

What is missing?

From where I'm sitting I currently see a lot that's missing: freedom, flow, peace, ease, okayness, alignment.

I keep thinking that I am living life kind of sleep walking through it most days. Before the “glimps(es)” I was living in ignorant bliss.. It’s different now… there’s less ignorant bliss (which is cool... I feel like I took the Red pill), but I feel I've been stuck in limbo land.

Reading these responses... it's hard for me not to overthink, re-state, clarify things. It makes sense and then it doesn't. But I think I'm just going to end it here. Thank you.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Irina,

Yes, you're pretty much right. Life remains the same & our perspective shifts. That's what we look for: a shift in perception like you've already had. It comes & goes.

Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.

Only fear & expectations can prevent seeing there's no "self." It happens in the present moment only.

I'm in Texas.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


Loving

[gildedGlitch]

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

I’ve read this statement/question - in several different iterations so many times and it still gives me the heebie-jeebies, discomfort and frustration. Because I understand this intellectually mainly. I am still operating from this very sticky and solid sense of self - a self looking out from these eyes, reading and understanding this text, and using thought to manipulate the hands and fingers to type this out - even though I am told that it does not exist.

So what comes up in this moment is sadness. Frustration. Disbelief and doubt. Anger. Disappointment - disappointment because I believe my-self to be a smart person and somehow my intelligence can’t understand this. But I also know that it cannot understand this. So why doesn’t it just let go? It feels like the “self” that I feel myself to be terribly wants peace and yet doesn’t want to let go, doesn’t want to give up control, masochistically wants this story to continue.

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

my intelligence can’t understand

Right. Thinking will never get you there. It's part of the problem. See my sig line.

You have never had any control. That's just a story your mind makes up. So. if you've never had "self " not much will change - only your perspective.

But first things first.

There is a Direct Looking process for fear.

https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=jHXuuyyVtp7c-1R2

And this one:

https://youtu.be/fSTT8nc8cvQ?si=Alcukpbi7SUlXpfi

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[gildedGlitch]

Hi Stacy,

I watched the two videos. They didn't really fully resonate with me at this time because fear isn't something I'm feeling lately. I did in the past, but I think I had made an effort to notice it when I felt it. And since then, it's not been a huge issue for me. I've heard about people experiencing Existential Fear. I can't say that I've felt this either, though. I don't know exactly what that means.

I am clear with everything else.

Thank you.

[Anastacia42]

Okay, good.

I thought this meant fear:

it still gives me the heebie-jeebies,

If you're past it that's great.

Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[gildedGlitch]

Hi! Just wanted to sent quick update that I'll report back tomorrow.

[Anastacia42]

Ok

[gildedGlitch]

Hello Stacy - I hope I got this right.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Sitting on the couch with laptop with my cat sleeping next to me
Seeing the laptop with screen and hands, seeing my cat next to me = image/color
Smelling the air in the room, simply = smell
Feeling the pressure of my body against couch, left arm grazing cat’s fur, simply = sensation
Tasting the taste in my mouth, simply = taste
Hearing the refrigerator humming, the water in the fishtank dripping, simply = sound
Thoughts about enjoying my cat’s company, simply = thought

Driving home
Hands on steering wheel, road, cars, buildings, sky, simply= image/color
Indoor car smell, really no discernible smell, simply = smell
Butt on seat, grip on wheel, feeling acceleration and deceleration, simply = sensation
Tasting the taste in my mouth, simply = taste
Hearing car noise, road noises, podcast audio, simply = sound
Thought about what to do when I get home, simply = thought

Patching faulty drywall
A wall with paint peeled off in spots, edges of scraped paint, simply =image/color
Oil primer smell, simply = smell
Arms tired from rolling paint, simply = sensation
Tasting the taste in my mouth, simply = taste
Hearing the wet paint roller over drywall, paint splatters, simply = sound
Thoughts about hating this, but this too shall pass, simply = thought

Riding my bike
Seeing the hands on handlebars, the road underneath tires, nature and space, simply = image/color
Smelling dry spring air, simply = smell
Feeling bum on seat, legs pedaling, muscles contracting, weakness and soreness, simply = sensation
Tasting the air, simply = taste
Hearing bike sounds, birds in the trees, wind, simply = sound
Thoughts about not being in shape, simply = thought

[Anastacia42]

Good. You've got it. Now this one.


Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[gildedGlitch]

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

No, I couldn't discern if one was truer than the other. Both seemed true.

2. What is here without labels?

Just what is. It simply is.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They simply describe it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I didn't feel any difference in the body. I didn't feel any difference in sensations. However, there was some subtle difference in energy expenditure in the mind maybe. The extra energy expended with labeling experiences with "I, me, my" seemed unnecessary. But it felt foreign not to do so. Like there was underlying belief that it's not socially acceptable to do so.

There was a bit of vacuous freedom when not labeling anything. Strange emptiness. Very subtle, though.

[Anastacia42]

Okay. You've got 2 & 3. Look at this to help with 1 & 4.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[gildedGlitch]

Hi, just wanted to touch base. I need a more time on this. Thank you.