Illusion

[Julieta1]

Keep enjoying the emptiness of thought when it happens, keep voicing the sentence "there is no separate self, no doer, no controller" many times, and see what happens...

And also, whenever you find yourself coming in or out of that "emptiness of thought", look: Is there a separate self who controls going in and out of it? Is there a separate self in anything at all?

Or is it like the Buddha said about everything (paraphrased): "This is not mine, not me, not my self".

Is it true that everything. even thoughts and beliefs about self, is spontaneous process without a self?

Thank you! please, do not feel obliged to answer fast to my comments.
No. There is not a "me" controlling the flow of thoughts. Also not a doer. YES! it seems like an spontaneous process in which phenomena occurs. Thoughts, responses, feelings, sensing, perceiving, identifying with the process, letting go of the claiming of doership, etc.
It feels a little crazy actually, to accept that.
YES, yes, it is contained in the teachings of Buddhism and advaita. Now it is "plastic!" or part of the seeing, or experience.
Am I lying to myself? this seems quite obvious now! How is that possible, not to have seen this before?

DOUBT? Actually I do not believe the doubt. Funny.
Yes! Good idea. The observation continues, inviting the experience to keep revealing the obvious!
Thank you.
Talk to you tomorrow...

[Elad]

Beautiful! And no worries, responses come here from flow as it flows...

this seems quite obvious now! How is that possible, not to have seen this before?

This sounds like clarity here :)

Am I lying to myself?

What is lying to what?

What/where could there be an I that lies?

[Julieta1]

I just had the thought: if the is no self, there is no doer either! Of course not! Because the "doer" is a function attached to the ego-self. The self: does, controls, performs, claims action, roles and identities. The doer is a role assigned by the self. selfing equals doing. WOW!!!! What a tramp!

[Julieta1]

Ha! that´s a trap!
the mind is dropping thoughts. That is exactly how this games works.
The lie is the thought that talks about a lie. The illusion is believing the thoughts that are being displayed in the mind.
CRAZY!!

[Elad]

Ha! that´s a trap!
the mind is dropping thoughts. That is exactly how this games works.
The lie is the thought that talks about a lie. The illusion is believing the thoughts that are being displayed in the mind.
CRAZY!!

:)

🍃 🤍

Write me again tomorrow let me know how things look/feel!

[Julieta1]

Dear friend
not much is happening here. Things seem to be clear.

There is no separate self. There is no doer, no controller.

There is a sense of relief. Clarity. Relaxation, space.

[Elad]

Beautifu! At this point we usually ask a set of questions to check if anything needs further clarifying. If I have no follow up questions, three other guides will review also. Once there is no more follow up questions from any of them "LU is graduated" 🙃

After that, we talk about "after LU", I'll share some resources and posilbities to connect with "like-minded", etc.


Please answer all of the following questions in one message and make sure that you copy each question before the answer so it is easy to connect Q's & A's. Take as much time as you wish, use it as an opportunity to look freshly.




1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue?



4) What was the moment where clarity clicked; describe what happened.



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control (separately).



6) What makes things happen? How does it work?



7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.



8) Anything to add?

[Julieta1]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There is no separate self, "me", "I" at all, anywhere. There is a thought at times, that expresses itself as a belief, that was believed to be true. That thought, as every thought, appears in the mind coped with the idea of doership. I see that is just a mental formation I believed to be reality and a modus of living life. No, there was never a separate self, but a mental reference to an entity that I believed to be real.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I see that that bubble / idea / group of ideas creates a story, that when it is not being investigated, is carried on as something real, true. It makes me sad, (ME?) or maybe it would be accurate to say that a sense of sadness appears in the mind about having being "lost" for such a long time. Whatever I write collapses actually. Because the idea of time is also a thought! Sadness is also just a thought expressing itself as a feeling in the body and mind. The mind "receives" thoughts, it seems, including the ones referring to an entity, this person and it´s story and somehow claims it to be real. Quite crazy, isn´t it?!!

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue?

Now it feels like a bit like "space. Lacking the contraction that comes from believing to be a limited entity. It seems that processing this might need some space. The thought of "me"/"Myself" will probably keep coming up until it does not as often. There is a sweetness in this that is quite pathetic at the same time. A belief collapses. There is a sadness and an expansion at the same time. I think there is a thought that says: I would like to work with you a bit longer, dear friend! It cannot be so simple. Equally it is sweet to think that there is an END to the delusion!!! All these are thoughts... The journey continues! I would be curious how it is for you, dear friend. We have now something in common. The sweet simplicity that arises from seeing that the illusion has been broken.

4) What was the moment where clarity clicked; describe what happened.
I cannot answer this so easily. Actually I´ve seen this many times in glimpses during meditation and some spiritual experiences I had over the years. But for some reason these days it became clear that there is really "nobody here". Nobody anywhere, but I am still writing these words!
As I was writing to you these last days, I was seeing the thoughts as I was typing. I was seeing how the mind would try to claim stuff. How the sense of "me" would start creeping from the back of the mind saying: hey wait.... No No! It´s not as clear as you think it is. It was like seeing through the mind game.
As I was repeating the sentences about the "the lack of separate self", a sense of space / No thought would be there. Nothing would come up, really. It was evident that those sentences were revealing the truth. The mind cannot be trusted! That is my experience. It tells stories. The mind appeared to be slow and clumsy compared to the clarity of the experience. I had no doubt that the experience revealing actuality.



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control (separately).
ha!!!! Yeah ... those are also automatic processes of the thinking mind. They are attached or part of the same delusion. When the "I" collapses, the doer does too. The "controller" appears like a stupid police-cartoon, trying to impose some order in a flow of phenomena that is much bigger than it. What a joke! I cannot believe I believed that illusion. I saw the process coming up today. The trying to control phenomena. It is quite pathetic! Hopefully that pattern will stop arising soon. Free will is more of the same. NO doer. No separate self. Then how can it be free will?!


6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
Hahahah! I have no idea: Life just happens. I do not know how! I really do not know. Maybe life is also just "apparently" there. I cannot prove any of those ideas.


7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I am not responsible for anything really. It feels like I am, surely. Because that thought/feeling arises. But thing are being done. It is a "crazy thing to say! But how can "I" be responsibly if there is not a separate "me".? Causes and conditions. Everything determines everything else.



8) Anything to add?
I love inquiring, reflecting, chatting about these topics. It´s exciting to think that we are not what we think we are AND there is a way of seeing through the falsity of thought. That really seeing that this person with the limitations she thought she has, is one more expression of energy withing the field of everything else.
Thank you for guiding me and many others. It is an amazing work you do, to help others to see through the illusion of self.
It has been nice meeting you! I wish you all the best
Much love and appreciation

[Julieta1]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There is no separate self, "me", "I" at all, anywhere. There is a thought at times, that expresses itself as a belief, that was believed to be true. That thought, as every thought, appears in the mind coped with the idea of doership. I see that is just a mental formation I believed to be reality and a modus of living life. No, there was never a separate self, but a mental reference to an entity that I believed to be real.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I see that that bubble / idea / group of ideas creates a story, that when it is not being investigated, is carried on as something real, true. It makes me sad, (ME?) or maybe it would be accurate to say that a sense of sadness appears in the mind about having being "lost" for such a long time. Whatever I write collapses actually. Because the idea of time is also a thought! Sadness is also just a thought expressing itself as a feeling in the body and mind. The mind "receives" thoughts, it seems, including the ones referring to an entity, this person and it´s story and somehow claims it to be real. Quite crazy, isn´t it?!!

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue?

Now it feels like a bit like "space. Lacking the contraction that comes from believing to be a limited entity. It seems that processing this might need some space. The thought of "me"/"Myself" will probably keep coming up until it does not as often. There is a sweetness in this that is quite pathetic at the same time. A belief collapses. There is a sadness and an expansion at the same time. I think there is a thought that says: I would like to work with you a bit longer, dear friend! It cannot be so simple. Equally it is sweet to think that there is an END to the delusion!!! All these are thoughts... The journey continues! I would be curious how it is for you, dear friend. We have now something in common. The sweet simplicity that arises from seeing that the illusion has been broken.

4) What was the moment where clarity clicked; describe what happened.
I cannot answer this so easily. Actually I´ve seen this many times in glimpses during meditation and some spiritual experiences I had over the years. But for some reason these days it became clear that there is really "nobody here". Nobody anywhere, but I am still writing these words!
As I was writing to you these last days, I was seeing the thoughts as I was typing. I was seeing how the mind would try to claim stuff. How the sense of "me" would start creeping from the back of the mind saying: hey wait.... No No! It´s not as clear as you think it is. It was like seeing through the mind game.
As I was repeating the sentences about the "the lack of separate self", a sense of space / No thought would be there. Nothing would come up, really. It was evident that those sentences were revealing the truth. The mind cannot be trusted! That is my experience. It tells stories. The mind appeared to be slow and clumsy compared to the clarity of the experience. I had no doubt that the experience revealing actuality.



5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control (separately).
ha!!!! Yeah ... those are also automatic processes of the thinking mind. They are attached or part of the same delusion. When the "I" collapses, the doer does too. The "controller" appears like a stupid police-cartoon, trying to impose some order in a flow of phenomena that is much bigger than it. What a joke! I cannot believe I believed that illusion. I saw the process coming up today. The trying to control phenomena. It is quite pathetic! Hopefully that pattern will stop arising soon. Free will is more of the same. NO doer. No separate self. Then how can it be free will?!


6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
Hahahah! I have no idea: Life just happens. I do not know how! I really do not know. Maybe life is also just "apparently" there. I cannot prove any of those ideas.


7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I am not responsible for anything really. It feels like I am, surely. Because that thought/feeling arises. But thing are being done. It is a "crazy thing to say! But how can "I" be responsibly if there is not a separate "me".? Causes and conditions. Everything determines everything else.



8) Anything to add?
I love inquiring, reflecting, chatting about these topics. It´s exciting to think that we are not what we think we are AND there is a way of seeing through the falsity of thought. That really seeing that this person with the limitations she thought she has, is one more expression of energy withing the field of everything else.
Thank you for guiding me and many others. It is an amazing work you do, to help others to see through the illusion of self.
It has been nice meeting you! I wish you all the best
Much love and appreciation

[Elad]

Dear Julieta, this feels very clear here. I will let other guides look now, it might take them a little time... I would be happy to stay in touch after this! We can also continue exploring here on this thread. Exploration, discovery and "living truth" continues... So, now will pass this to others, and after that process, we will just continue to let discovery flow together :)

[Julieta1]

Dear Julieta, this feels very clear here. I will let other guides look now, it might take them a little time... I would be happy to stay in touch after this! We can also continue exploring here on this thread. Exploration, discovery and "living truth" continues... So, now will pass this to others, and after that process, we will just continue to let discovery flow together :)

Thank you for your message. I would love to stay in touch too! Yes, the exploration continues ... Looking forward to hearing from you soon, or at some point in time (or out of time!)

Thank you again.
Much love
Julieta

[Elad]

Dear Julieta,

Three guides looked at your answers and had no further questions meaning you officially "graduated LU" 🙃 As you know, there is no gate and no crosses the gate and discovery and seeing through blindspots continues...

And yet, conventionally speaking, a chapter comes to conclusion now and a new one starts. It has been a pleasure and an honor to do this process with you and I will be happy to stay in touch. You can write me here on this thread if questions come up or to my email eladexplore1111@gmail.com.

Beside this, here is a list of good resources, to support continued exploration. It can be super valuable to share with peers. I wanna particularly emphasize Vinces meetings that are not only an opportunity to be heard and talk with peers. Also, once this has settled more into life, you might consider becoming a guide. If you wanna go that way, I can mentor you and there are other mentors for new guides as well.


Here is the list of resources:

Resource list:

3 weekly free zoom meetings which offer a space to listen, share and even offer guidance as and if the inclination arises, with Vince Schubert. Please contact Vince Schubert via email: vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule.

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Simply Awake app - Free app for your phone that contains dozens of meditation that will help you to keep looking deeper.

Also a great video from Angelo Dilullo on this process and how it deepens on its own, if not resisted, YouTube: Simply Always Awake "Self and No-Self":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X_Xpd10pV0&t=38s

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If you're interested in the 10 fetters Buddhist model (what we did here pertains to the first 3) go to Kevin Shanilek's website for information:

https://simplytheseen.com/

Also a great video conversation with Ilona and Kevin Shanilek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWfBHN6oRk

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Todd and Pernille Lent Damore also offer many helpful videos on each fetter, from a different, more psychologically broad approach, on their YouTube Channels:

Unfettered Mindfulness and The Awakening Curriculum

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POK Perfectly Okay.Org:

https://perfectlyokay.org/ - A large, free of charge, supportive awakening community that has many different modalities and meetings.

Every second Wednesday Becca (another guide) and I hold free of charge meetings there for people who work with processes that might combine awakening and therapy or healing. You can find us on facebook: POK Awakening and Consultation Group.

Becca and I also have a weekly sangha called Awake Collective.


-----------

Ilona holds a monthly meeting, contact:
admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link and schedule.

[Elad]

Ups:


*I wanna particularly emphasize Vinces meetings that are not only an opportunity to be heard and talk with peers but also an opportunity to help others who are seeking and in the process*

[Julieta1]

Three guides looked at your answers and had no further questions meaning you officially "graduated LU" 🙃 As you know, there is no gate and no crosses the gate and discovery and seeing through blindspots continues...

Thank you very much for all those resources!!! I appreciate it.
Will come back to you in some time from now.
Much love
Julieta

[Elad]

🤍