Sage

[Elad]

Hey Sage

I'm not the one "doing" awareness. I don't purposely observe.
It happens spontaneously, and I have no power to "manage" it.
Consciousness and experience are inseparable, like two sides of the same coin: experience happens and is known at the same time

.


Exactly

The strong sense of my presence and of being the observer remains.

Ist that a problem in any way? Any sense that there is a need to get rid of that or that it indicates something is wrong?

[Sage]

If my existence is an illusion and I feel like I still exist, perhaps I've missed the point.

[Elad]

Please read my question to you again. Answer with your heart and whole being, not just logical. It is fine if you feel something is missing, we will just continue the work with care. If that is the case, describe what feels like it is missing from the heart. Take the time you need.

[Elad]

More response on second thought/feeling:

The illusion is not that there is an experience of self, this is part of normal experience on the conventional level.

The illusion is that this experience in fact is a separate entity inside existence who owns it or controls it.

The sense of presence, of being here, is not a problem.

Look carefully: is that presence a self, something you own? Or is it just presence?

Is there actually a boundary around it that makes it “Sage”?

Stay very simple here.

[Sage]

Good evening Elad, I'm trying to find a way to "look at presence" so I can answer you, but I don't know where to look beyond the mental content. It's not perceptible to the senses, am I missing something, or should I assume it's just a concept, a thought?
I'm getting really confused 😅
Can you help me?

[Elad]

Good evening Sage,

The idea that you must “look at presence” is already the mind trying to turn this into an object.

Presence is not something perceptible to the senses.

It is not something you can find.

It is simply the fact that experience is happening and is known.

Right now - without effort - is experience happening?

Is it known?

Does this presence/knowing have a name, a boundary, something that makes it a "self" ?

That is all.

The rest is thought trying to grasp it.

No need to strain.

[Sage]

I see that everything—the stories about myself, the frustration, the desire for liberation—is the product of thought. I see it, but at the same time I continue to believe the thought and hear it as my voice. I can't find a separate entity that affirms this; perhaps there isn't one, but I can't fully see it.
The presence has no name, but I still feel it (or think of it) as something born from this body and as such takes its form.
I'm sorry, I feel like I'm expressing myself confusingly, but I really don't know how to do it better.

Thank you so much Elad

[Elad]

The presence has no name, but I still feel it (or think of it) as something born from this body and as such takes its form.

Is it feel or think?

Feeling means sensations in the body. What sensations say this?

Or it is only a belief?

The more a person is very heady, oriented habitually to thinking and not to feeling and experience, this process tend to go slow. The habit is just to have attention inside belief and analysis all the time. It is then a very gradual process to shift orientation.

What things and activities in life tend to connect you more to feeling and experiencing rather then being in the head and thought?

Thank you so much Elad

My pleasure. I'm with you, step by step.

[Elad]

Ps.

The presence has no name, but I still feel it (or think of it) as something born from this body and as such takes its form.

We do not claim here that "presence/awareness" is not generated from the body OR that it is generated from the body. This is a philosopical discussion between idealism and materialism and such. We do not engage this philosopical discussion. We point directly that there is no separate self in control, and this is true weather things are best explained with materialism, idealism, or something else.

[Sage]

We do not claim here that "presence/awareness" is not generated from the body OR that it is generated from the body. This is a philosopical discussion between idealism and materialism and such. We do not engage this philosopical discussion. We point directly that there is no separate self in control, and this is true weather things are best explained with materialism, idealism, or something else.

Yes, ok

Is it feel or think?

Thinking, It's a belief

Feeling means sensations in the body. What sensations say this?

No sensation says "me/I"

The more a person is very heady, oriented habitually to thinking and not to feeling and experience, this process tend to go slow. The habit is just to have attention inside belief and analysis all the time. It is then a very gradual process to shift orientation.

You described me perfectly, it's my biggest problem

What things and activities in life tend to connect you more to feeling and experiencing rather then being in the head and thought?

Few, in truth, and even they only make it fade into the background, never disappearing.
In any case, to being surrounded by nature/animals, traveling, discovering new and distant places, taking a plane (I love it 😂).
Everything that falls within the everyday, the known is "annihilated" and flattened by thought.

My pleasure. I'm with you, step by step.

❤️

[Elad]

1) Great you are so clear about the tendency to be heady! Now look: Is that tendency "you"? Is there a "you" who is that or does that? Or it is just what is, habit?

2) You say the everyday life gets flattened by thought.

Next time you experience that flattening, look:
is there actually someone being flattened?

Or just thought labeling it “flat” and sensations and no self there?

Look directly. Not conceptually.

And in those moments of novelty, plane, travel, next time you have one of those -
is there more self there, or less?
Or is there equally there no self, just a different state more vibrant feeling?

3) Is there an expectation that this will lead to more of the vibrant alive states? If there is, this is another clinging to and looking for pleasant experience, which gets in the way. Focus all attention on just getting it completely clear:

Is it completely clear there is no self here, just like there is no santa claus here?

[Elad]

Maybe good to re-read the section about expectations at this point:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/

[Sage]

Great you are so clear about the tendency to be heady! Now look: Is that tendency "you"?

No, it's absolutely automatic.

Is there a "you" who is that or does that?

I'm not the one doing it, otherwise I definitely wouldn't do it

Or it is just what is, habit?

It is what it is but there is a sense of being here observing this

You say the everyday life gets flattened by thought.

Next time you experience that flattening, look:
is there actually someone being flattened?

No, just sensations, and thought defines it that way. For example, these days I've experiencing an unpleasant feeling of emptiness. It's just a sensation, and to "understand" it, thought defines it that way.

Or just thought labeling it “flat” and sensations and no self there?

Just feelings but I just can't say that there is no self

And in those moments of novelty, plane, travel, next time you have one of those -
is there more self there, or less?
Or is there equally there no self, just a different state more vibrant feeling?

Unfortunately I don't have one now but I can say with enough certainty that there is only one more vibrant state.. and I which experience it

Is there an expectation that this will lead to more of the vibrant alive states? If there is, this is another clinging to and looking for pleasant experience, which gets in the way.

No, I don't have that expectation. I just expect it to be acknowledged and that's will be clear.

Is it completely clear there is no self here, just like there is no santa claus here?

No, unfortunately.
Sorry.

Maybe good to re-read the section about expectations at this point:

Thanks so much, I've reread them but as I wrote above I don't think I have any high expectations for this other than to clearly realize that the shift in vision has "happened"

[Elad]

"I just can't say that there is no self"

Right now - what is that which cannot say it?

Is it a sensation?
A contraction?
A location in the body?

Stay with that.

No arguing, this is not about intellectual conviction.

Only stay, look.

[Elad]

Also, how du you know you cant say it?
Isn't that just a belief?
If you stop buying into habitual beliefs, then what?

No hurry to say yes or no, this or that.

See beliefs for no more then they are.

Then what remains?