ready to be guided

[Cam-RT]

Hello, Arora...

thank you so much for being with me.

Hey glad to be here, you're do so well! :^)

then thought occurred for me to scan my environment and body and see what is 'real'. As i started doing that, next thing that occurred was that 'wait a minute, i didnt decide to do that..where did it come from.. and i saw that it came from nowhere! '

Excellent!, There really is No Thinker...Just thought! That's all there's ever been.

i' sat there for a little while just enjoying this...thoughts coming and going..automatic!

Yup, they just come out of no where, and back again...Same go's will these bogus thought's pointing toward a fictional self! It's just the fact that all these years this thought construct has gone unchallenged...Till Now.

there is indecision on what to write, whether it is being written and conveyed properly...there is thoughts whether i should use 'i' in writing or not..but there is not much stress to whatever happens.

Hey you're doing fine...Unfortunately, we need to use these pronouns in our language, labeling and conveying thought toward one another, BUT what's important is that you know the difference.

"There is No " I " just the suits, faces, or roles one must play to keep from freaking people out."

i intend to report again whether this continues or i get sucked back again,

Sounds good!...But, what is 'it' that's there, to sucked back into?

What is "IT" that supports thought?<-----Without thought,..What's left??

[arora]

Hi Cam
Apologies for not reporting for a while. It's been something I'd call 'spiritual exhaustion' where I have lost motivation to keep digging deeper and almost a lethargy to do anything. I dont know if that is just a made-up excuse for being lazy or something bit more substantial but that's how mind seems to explain this lack of energy/motivation.
Hopefully I can break through to the other side soon
Regards
Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...
"Only that day dawns that I'm awake"... Jed Mckenna

I'd call 'spiritual exhaustion' where I have lost motivation to keep digging deeper and almost a lethargy to do anything. I dont know if that is just a made-up excuse for being lazy or something bit more substantial but that's how mind seems to explain this lack of energy/motivation.

This should be in the for front of your mind, If you desire freedom. Curiosity and desire are the strongest tools that you hold in your favor.

You need to inquire and use these tools in "real time". Mentally stepping back and observing the thoughts that point toward a self.

There is no you at all — nothing and no one behind experience, but always only the experience. There is no “you” out of which everything emanates. “You” have only ever been an idea, a notion, created out of nowhere.

The self, wants you to quit. Whether frustration or lack of motivation, 'IT' doesn't want you to see the truth. It needs you to continue to feed it in order to survive. The mind is seductive and will draw you in and lull you back to sleep within it's illusion. Shedding the light of truth on these thoughts will bring you back to the present.

My question to you is how bad do you want this??
The more you hunger for the truth, is what keeps you on the path, and so will come the gate...
All you need is one HONEST LOOK and you will see...

Arora, read over our conversation again and look again at where and what I'm pointing at...As a matter of fact pick a couple of other threads at this website and read through what the other guides are pointing at too!! Come back and tell me what stands out, and where you have any questions...We as guides are all pointing at the same thing we only convey it differently that's all.

[arora]

Hi Cam
i am back :) and want to do it...with the best I can.
I did spend a bit of time reading one particular blog and realise there was more clarity and honesty in that 'seeker's ' replies and investigation; so my feeling is that I need to put bit more time and effort in investigation and not leave it to be my 'effortless and automatic' responses.
So here I am again.

What stood out from the reading was (not sure if this is related to investigation however) that I do have a lot of fear as well..fear of not behaving appropriately amongst other people, for example, at work; fear of not getting what I want from people; fear of not getting accepted or doign the right thing, even fear of not making right use of time!
As far as work is concerned, it does go on at the back of my mind occasionally during the routine day for brief periods, but intention is to invest more time and intensity to it.
Regards
Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

i am back :) and want to do it...with the best I can.

Excellent!! Just remember, try and get this in "real time", where your keeping this in mind and "auditing" these annoying thoughts...And also keep in mind "Perception, Perception, Perception". Flush duality down the toilet.
No good or bad just "what is".
Just a quick re-cap...
Experience occurs then as soon as perception happens...Then:
Thought triggers feeling, feeling gets labeled--->New trigger--->Feeling gets more intense--->more labels--->Vicious feedback loop...
***Getting to the root of where all this is coming from; LOOKING and seeing the truth that there is "No you" creating these thoughts, is all there is. That's where the honesty comes in.

I did spend a bit of time reading one particular blog and realise there was more clarity and honesty in that 'seeker's ' replies and investigation;

Yes! honesty with yourself is key here...You need to shed the light of truth on all of these thoughts and challenge
Anything that distracts and gets in the way of seeing...When the mind starts spinning stories mentally push through the "distraction"and LOOK at what's driving it... Guaranteed you'll find the same answer every time!

I need to put bit more time and effort in investigation and not leave it to be my 'effortless and automatic' responses.

Yup! Until you see and affirm in your own mind "What it is" behind each and every thought, every time you switch from "Automatic" to free time, is when the brain starts spinning these stories/thoughts then you're stuck in the same "dysfunctional thought pattern."

What stood out from the reading was (not sure if this is related to investigation however) that I do have a lot of fear as well..fear of not behaving appropriately amongst other people, for example, at work; fear of not getting what I want from people; fear of not getting accepted or doign the right thing, even fear of not making right use of time!

Again, fear is not to be feared it's protecting the "Self" from being seen for "what it is"(It doesn't want to be "seen" and will do what's necessary to keep you from looking. Once you do GAME OVER!)...All you need is one good look behind all this "Crap" and you'll dump the rest and feel much better...Seriously!

fear of not getting what I want from people

Well unfortunately, people do what they do. This isn't hypnotism...I've got this sign hung prominently in my home that's a constant reminder..."It is what is is....NOT what is should be" sometimes shit doesn't workout the way we think....."Thought's vs. Reality....Reality ALWAYS wins."

Get a good look behind ALL these thoughts....What's there???
What's in charge??...Just LET GO.

[arora]

Hi
as much as i look into it, I have realised two kinds of undercurrents behind most experiences, which feel like 'I'. Its either some form of resistance, which feels like 'i' resisting any given experience in some way or other. Or its choosing going on, which feels like 'I' constantly choosing to ignore certain thoughts and believing certain thoughts out of the constant stream of thoughts.
And, when I try to work with assuming 'no I' concept, i seem to replace 'i' as a mind-body complex in my explaining to myself, for example, this feeling of sadness/fear is not happening to me, its just in the mind-body complex. however this doesnt feel right or freedom either. so it seems like I m stuck still, just on different concepts.
Regards
Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

Its either some form of resistance, which feels like 'i' resisting any given experience in some way or other. Or its choosing going on, which feels like 'I' constantly choosing to ignore certain thoughts and believing certain thoughts out of the constant stream of thoughts.

Remember the quote...Everything we know, no matter how sure we are, is really just Belief, and ALL beliefs are self limiting, and serve to reduce the truly infinite to falsely finite...

What needs to be challenged is ALL beliefs, and resistance...These cannot be trusted...We're conditioned growing up, that these all thoughts and beliefs you can fall back on to help you get through life.... But is this true??

What's behind the resistance?...GO THERE.

The fear's of not being good enough....GO THERE...Is it true??

this feeling of sadness/fear is not happening to me,

Remember the body believes these thoughts, in turn the mind spins more...The emotions are by-products of the
Mind/Self perceiving, judging and labeling situations...In reality is this true?? Don't let beliefs in thoughts, cloud your view of reality.

i seem to replace 'i' as a mind-body complex in my explaining to myself,

There's literally "nothing" to have to explain!
There is no " I "...All these thoughts that "feel" like pointing back to a "you"; Follow them back and challenge them, all these thoughts will end up at the same dead end.

They appear and disappear and are vicious if you allow them to persist...In reality they cannot exist.
Just like figments of your imagination...If it's in your head don't trust it...until this process is over and you see clearly the difference between thoughts vs. reality, you need to challenge EVERYTHING beyond
"direct experience."
All these stories and opinions about yourself....Where is the "you" behind these thoughts??

Still with me here? or do you have any questions about what I just explained...Let me know.
Take Care...

[arora]

Hi Cam
I am away on a little holiday, will hopefully have a bit more open space, & will get back to you soon
Much regard
Arora

[arora]

Hi Cam
There are times when functioning is a lot lighter, and I can see its light because there is no interference from mind, but there are times when its depressive and heavy. So i dont know if there have been some glimpses of what you are saying, or these are just states that are coming and going, because expectation is for it be same during both contrasting moods
I have had the process at the back of mind for a fair chunk of functioning days, and its always during the happier moods that it seems there is no me behind this. During heavy depressive feelings, it seems to take over and I cant see there is no me, and there is a constant struggle that goes on to find a cause behind this, and to correct things.

As far as being clear about what you say and what I have resonated with, i feel that I am clear on this intellectually, however talking to a friend about who she was, she simply replied taht she was a soul who could choose between good and bad thoughts and good and bad feelings, Although I thought I completely understood that there is no self like a soul residing the body, I could not logically convince her otherwise or think of a solid argument to justify my belief, so there must be some gaps in my understanding and looking.
It's both exciting and frustrating to stay with this :)
Regards
Arora

[arora]

p.s. Reading another post, I just realised that maybe my understanding is only that thoughts and feelings are not under my control and are happening on their own accord; and not really that there is no self. I might have been confusing the two!
So starting again, I think my clarity only goes as far as the first fact, and that all these responses and reactions are happening due to conditioning.
Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...
Hey welcome back!...Good to hear from you! :^)

there are times when its depressive and heavy.

Even after liberation, there will be time's when the mind will attempt to drag you back in...
These rouge thoughts need your attention and identification to survive, and yes the mind can be cruel and crafty to get it!!!

i dont know if there have been some glimpses of what you are saying,

There are times when functioning is a lot lighter,

Sure! you will get these glimpses and in turn functioning is lighter, because there's no 'connection' or "identification"
with the thoughts...Seeing them for what they are, ("phantoms") naturally eliminates and brakes the metaphoric chains that bind you, in turn bringing clarity.

During heavy depressive feelings, it seems to take over and I cant see there is no me, and there is a constant struggle that goes on to find a cause behind this

So what was found??...What is 'it' that is dragging you down???

however talking to a friend about who she was, she simply replied taht she was a soul who could choose between good and bad thoughts and good and bad feelings, Although I thought I completely understood that there is no self like a soul residing the body, I could not logically convince her otherwise or think of a solid argument to justify my belief, so there must be some gaps in my understanding and looking.

Well she got the "soul or lifeforce" thing right, but it appears she's a bit stuck with "duality"...There really is no good or bad just "What is"...As far as right or wrong, "Wrongness is in the eye of the beholder...And nowhere else"

You need to lump all these thoughts together, as one...Just thought.
All in turn creating a distraction to keep you from seeing past them and seeing "The Truth".
So what is the truth??...There is a "soul" existing for the moment as energy...That's All.
Are all these thoughts coming from a "YOU"...or are they just stories spinning over and over and coming from where?
Memories, are recall...But at this moment are they real???

I just realised that maybe my understanding is only that thoughts and feelings are not under my control and are happening on their own accord; and not really that there is no self. I might have been confusing the two!

GooD!!!...Thoughts just come and go unless you focus on them and give them the energy they need to survive and grow...Feelings are the by-product of these thoughts that the body believes to be true...

Try this exercise out and see what happens,(let me know what you find.)
Pick a couple of thoughts...One that you know is "Bullshit" think it through, and try to connect mentally...
Does it spur any strong physical connection? At all??

Now pick the one that keeps coming back and makes these feelings return...What is "IT" that's behind it, What makes the connection??....BELIEF!!!

Remember...
"Everything we know, no matter how sure we are, is really just Belief, and ALL beliefs are self limiting, and serve to reduce the truly infinite to falsely finite".

[arora]

Hi Cam

I notice that there is more and more evidence of these feelings and thoughts not under my control, however there is much more investment and desire to change it when the feelings are 'negative' Hence some feeling of ownership of not the thoughts maybe but 'desire to change it' does seem to be Mine.

Try this exercise out and see what happens,(let me know what you find.)
Pick a couple of thoughts...One that you know is "Bullshit" think it through, and try to connect mentally...
Does it spur any strong physical connection? At all?

There is just a bit of stir internally and very quickly a smile or seeing through the stupidity of it.

Now pick the one that keeps coming back and makes these feelings return...What is "IT" that's behind it, What makes the connection??....BELIEF!!!

Some of the thoughts that bring upon a stronger feeling are the ones that feel 'truer' or regarding a 'real problem' so it makes perfect sense that it is Belief that is working behind them.
so far so good..

"Everything we know, no matter how sure we are, is really just Belief, and ALL beliefs are self limiting, and serve to reduce the truly infinite to falsely finite".

hmm that statement sounds logical too but has not hit home yet..still pondering over it and trying to find repercussions of having 'No belief'..it sounds like it equates to no memory..if there was no reference to memory, there would be no belief..but it also sounds like something that can't be done but might be a description or a by-product of state of 'no-self'

Regards
Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello, Arora...

there is much more investment and desire to change it when the feelings are 'negative' Hence some feeling of ownership of not the thoughts maybe but 'desire to change it' does seem to be Mine.

Both 'Ownership' and 'You' are nothing but illusion, a thought or reference used in communication...Even the body, is temporary, and in time returns to the 'nothing' from which it came.

the thoughts that bring upon a stronger feeling are the ones that feel 'truer' or regarding a 'real problem' so it makes perfect sense that it is Belief that is working behind them.

Good work! The body is a slave to the mind, you could even say it's hard coded to react when it feels threatened...

Which points back to how deeply rooted the beliefs and conditioning are. The mind will develop thought to distract you and attempt to reenforce the belief...This is where reality burns away these thoughts leaving only the truth.

I've found even now, some "cruel" thoughts or memories of the past will pop up and try to pull me in...The mind is seductive and crafty at getting it's attention...Boredom, fantasy, imagination, and physical pain along with being tired after a long day, are the weakness that enable it's grip....Truth and reality are your Weapons.
Follow the truth...

still pondering over it and trying to find repercussions of having 'No belief'.

Good!!..Beliefs and opinions (in reality) should be flushed down the toilet ;^) They have no power unless you identify and connect with these "Velcro" type thoughts..."Slay" the thoughts/demons...don't feed em.
Once this connection is broken, you'll find becoming more "present" builds in the place of getting lost in thought.

it sounds like it equates to no memory..if there was no reference to memory, there would be no belief.

Hmmm....More like Recall (Memory). Beliefs have no physical connection to reality...Anything created within ones mind or handed down from another (Take religion for instance) cannot be trusted...Thoughts vs.Reality....Reality ALWAYS Wins.
Memory is only as good as the brain that supports it...Intellect and wisdom comes with time and work, both of which reality helps build upon.

So other than intellect and recall...Who or what is "IT" driving these thoughts???

[arora]

hi Cam

Boredom, fantasy, imagination, and physical pain along with being tired after a long day, are the weakness that enable it's grip....Truth and reality are your Weapons

Although i am aware that there should be no expectations of the outcome of 'seeing through' but this sounds like there needs to be constant vigilance, rather than expected on/off kind of seeing. Is there mind involved in seeing through the mind? in other words, mind can be a weapon against the mind?

So other than intellect and recall...Who or what is "IT" driving these thoughts???

Pondering over your above question, my first reaction was events or situation. But pondering further, events seem to be influencing thoughts and not the driving force. As much as i sit with it and try to find the driving force (or source?) they seem to appear spontaneously, although influenced by external events or situation. What does appear again and again is the choosing ability which is still present, which seems mine, to be able to choose between those spontaneously arising thoughts.
That rambling was probably confusing and possibly off the point but these are the directions mind seems to be taking at the moment.
Kind regards
Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

but this sounds like there needs to be constant vigilance, rather than expected on/off kind of seeing.

Consider Stepping through "The Gate" as Blasting off from earths atmosphere...Once you've reached the point where you're free, you see and understand that there's no one else "pretending" or "identifying" as a self; And after completing "the work" you've acquired the tools and knowledge to see truth behind thoughts... Yet in time, (pardon the metaphor) gravity pulls you naturally back toward earth. There will be some time that "aftercare" will come in handy to help smooth the transition to help further deepen and broaden your liberation...

Is there mind involved in seeing through the mind? in other words, mind can be a weapon against the mind?

Seeing and understanding the truth is the weapon..."The now" is the foundation.
Kinda like watching a movie about unicorns (I prefer to use ghosts)...You see it, and understand it; But deep down you know it's just fantasy.<----Catch my drift right??....It's all in your head.

pondering further, events seem to be influencing thoughts and not the driving force. As much as i sit with it and try to find the driving force (or source?) they seem to appear spontaneously,

EXCELLENT! this quote above shows you're right on track!!

What does appear again and again is the choosing ability which is still present, which seems mine, to be able to choose between those spontaneously arising thoughts.

It appears that you're pondering "Free Will"...This too is an illusion that the "Self" wants to distract you with, here's a link that might prove to be useful with this inquiry... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRIcbsRXQ0o

So if thoughts appear spontaneously is there a "You or Self" responsible for all this??