I would like to engage with a guide again

[Noro]

Great going Lesley :)

DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.

Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

[LesleyBitzy]

Hello.
Just let you know I'm taking my time for this exercise.

Thank you

Lesley

[Noro]

That's great Lesley,

Take your time!

Rowena :)

[LesleyBitzy]

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

There is no connection between the felt sensations and the image. Just thoughts suggest there is.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

There is no connection between the label,'hand',and the image of movement in the mirror.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Again there is no connection between the felt sensations and the image. Only thoughts suggest it.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

The image does not suggest in any way that it is 'me' or 'my' body.

Code: Select all

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

There are only colours and shapes.

Code: Select all

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

There is no knowledge that there must be legs. Only thoughts suggest so.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations.

(8) Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

There are only sensations.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

There is no experience of,'walking', at all.

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Yes there are just thoughts about walking.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

There are just thoughts about a body, such a thing as a body cannot be found.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

There are only thoughts about,'walking'. No such thing as walking can be found.

(9) Are the sensations localised in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

the sensations are not localised in space. There is only an image that is labelled,'room', and appearing sensations without any location.

[Noro]

STREAM EXERCISE
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is a stream ever really a separate entity, different from other water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it ever the exact same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions, ground conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Using this metaphor, can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

Consider that there are environmental factors, consider any preferences like color, shape and texture.
Consider where did those preferences come from?

Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?

Consider any practical issues (such as what is available).
Consider the time factor, i.e. for preparation.
Consider the purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in all of the above is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

Can you find a someone somewhere? (Not just thoughts, and thoughts about the thoughts (thought bundles), none of which are solid even if they seem to have some solidity for an instant.)

Do you control attention?
Do you control feelings?
Do you control choices?
Do you control thoughts?
Do you control anything?

3. Now consider, can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

4. Take your time with this exercise and occasionally stop for a few moments throughout your day and take a look. When you find your attention caught up in thinking.... stop, take a look....

Was there a "you" that suddenly stopped the trail of thought and said "Oh, I'm lost in thought!" ?
Do you control being "lost in thought?"

Please let me know how all this is landing with you.
How is the general baseline mood that you find yourself in as you go about your day?
If there is a preference regarding a 'mood" how does that preference make itself known?

Rowena :)

[LesleyBitzy]

1. Using this metaphor, can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

I think to myself,'What shall I wear?. I see my clothes from the night before. I think, ok I'll wear them for another day. I'll wear clean underwear."

Consider that there are environmental factors, consider any preferences like color, shape and texture.
Consider where did those preferences come from?

All those preferences came from my thoughts.

Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?

Yes, because there was a thought choice.

Consider any practical issues (such as what is available).
Consider the time factor, i.e. for preparation.
Consider the purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. [/quote
Where in all of the above is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

There is no automatous entity that interferes in the flow of life. Just thoughts.

Can you find a someone somewhere? (Not just thoughts, and thoughts about the thoughts (thought bundles), none of which are solid even if they seem to have some solidity for an instant.)

No. Just a mass of thoughts.

Do you control attention?

No

Do you control feelings?

No

Do you control choices?

No

Do you control thoughts?

No

Do you control anything?

No

Now consider can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible-if so responsible to what and for what?

This is tricky. I can say,'I think that I am responsible! However it is my thoughts that think I am responsible.

4. Take your time with this exercise and occasionally stop for a few moments throughout your day and take a look. When you find your attention caught up in thinking.... stop, take a look....

Was there a "you" that suddenly stopped the trail of thought and said "Oh, I'm lost in thought!" ?
Do you control being "lost in thought?"

My thoughts tell me when I am' lost in thought.' I definitely don't control when I am,'lost in thought'.

Please let me know how all this is landing with you.

How is the general baseline mood that you find yourself in as you go about your day?

When I look for the baseline mood, there is nothing to see. If I consider my general thoughts regarding something I can start to pick apart a 'mood'. However it is all just thoughts!

If there is a preference regarding a 'mood" how does that preference make itself known?

Any preference regarding a mood', is yet another set of,'thoughts'.

[Noro]

Hi Lesley, Let's become very clear on thoughts.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

I think to myself,'What shall I wear?. I see my clothes from the night before. I think, ok I'll wear them for another day. I'll wear clean underwear."

"I think to myself.... " Ah ha!! ... there is a catch here, let's call it the trap of linguistics, the way we usually speak. But to be absolutely clear:

What is "I" pointing to? Where can "I" actually be found?
What is "myself" referring to? Can "myself" actually be found?
If it is pointing anywhere, where is it pointing?
Is there a separate thinker of thoughts that can have preferences?
Does there need to be an independent chooser or decider in order for an apparent decision to be made?

Consider that there are environmental factors, consider any preferences like color, shape and texture.
Consider where did those preferences come from?

"All those preferences came from my thoughts.

"

Are you sure about this? Can thoughts have preferences?
Or, do apparent preferences show up as part of the content of thought?

Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?

"Yes, because there was a thought choice.

"

Was there any autonomous, independent agent actually involved in intervening or in thinking or in choosing?

Consider any practical issues (such as what is available).
Consider the time factor, i.e. for preparation.
Consider the purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. [/quote
Where in all of the above is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life?

"There is no automatous entity that interferes in the flow of life. Just thoughts."

YES!!

Now consider can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible-if so responsible to what and for what?

"This is tricky. I can say,'I think that I am responsible! However it is my thoughts that think I am responsible."

You are seeing clearly Jean, and then you fall back into a default mode thinking thoughts have agency.
Can you see this?

The question was tricky because of the invitation pointing to an apparent "you" for an answer. But apparent is the operative word. We are always looking for an actual "you" or "I". Do you see the trap? It is so easy to fall into this trap over and over again..... and that's all part of what''s happening!

"Oh, I fell into that trap again!" ..... "Silly me!"......"Blah blah blah!" and thoughts are off again on a thought trail, like clouds in the sky!

Please look at the question again:

Now consider can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible. if so responsible to what and for what?
Can a thought that thinks you are responsible show that there is an actual separate entity (thinker) responsible?
Does a thought have any agency at all to decide, prefer, choose, be responsible?

Was there a "you" that suddenly stopped the trail of thought and said "Oh, I'm lost in thought!" ?
Do you control being "lost in thought?"

"My thoughts tell me when I am' lost in thought." I definitely don't control when I am,'lost in thought'.

Simply thoughts happening about being lost in thought.
Words arising for no one.

Can a listener or "me" ever be found?

How is the general baseline mood that you find yourself in as you go about your day?

"When I look for the baseline mood, there is nothing to see. If I consider my general thoughts regarding something I can start to pick apart a 'mood'. However it is all just thoughts!"

YES!

If there is a preference regarding a 'mood" how does that preference make itself known?

"Any preference regarding a mood', is yet another set of,'thoughts'.

"

YES!


This is really good going Lesley. It takes time to see into the trickyness of linguistics!


Warmly,
Rowena

[LesleyBitzy]

What is "I" pointing to? Where can "I" actually be found?
What is "myself" referring to? Can "myself" actually be found?
If it is pointing anywhere, where is it pointing?
Is there a separate thinker of thoughts that can have preferences?
Does there need to be an independent chooser or decider in order for an apparent decision to be made?

There is nothing to find. There is no separate thinker of thoughts that have preferences. It is all just thoughts.

Are you sure about this? Can thoughts have preferences?
Or, do apparent preferences show up as part of the content of thought?

Aparant preferences show up as the content of thought.

Was there any autonomous, independent agent actually involved in intervening or in thinking or in choosing?

No it's all just thoughts.

You are seeing clearly Jean, and then you fall back into a default mode thinking thoughts have agency.
Can you see this?

I can see it.

Now consider can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible. if so responsible to what and for what?
Can a thought that thinks you are responsible show that there is an actual separate entity (thinker) responsible?
Does a thought have any agency at all to decide, prefer, choose, be responsible?

A thought has no agency.

Can a listener or "me" ever be found?

It is so tricky. sometimes I can see it for what it is. Just thought. Other times I am deep in the story.

Rowena, I think you called me Jean by mistake unless Im misunderstanding something.
I find that when I am thinking and not seeing then it affects my 'mood'. Then I start to think I must need therapy as I am so confused. Then I see it for what it is! all thoughts.

I hope you don't mind me taking a couple of days to respond to your questions.It feels a burden sometimes.

As I write this I see that the 'burden' I feel about having to answer your questions, is just more thought.

Thank you

[Noro]

Hello Lesley,

Rowena, I think you called me Jean by mistake unless Im misunderstanding something.
I find that when I am thinking and not seeing then it affects my 'mood'. Then I start to think I must need therapy as I am so confused. Then I see it for what it is! all thoughts.

Oops, I'm so sorry about that, sometimes I get confused as I have more than one person that I am responding to!
At the same time I can see that you really took it as an opportunity to look and see that your thoughts about it were simply thoughts. So well done, that is really great live practice. :)

I hope you don't mind me taking a couple of days to respond to your questions.It feels a burden sometimes.

No, I totally understand, especially that you are now seeing so well what is going on. I do have a few more exercises to share with you, and I would also be happy if you would like to share any daily experiences where you feel you get easily pulled in to thought trails, taking things personally, being triggered etc. it is all good material for enquiry.

As I write this I see that the 'burden' I feel about having to answer your questions, is just more thought.

Yes, it is more thought, and yet the word "burden" does have an energetic quality or feeling as a body sensation.
So, perhaps this might be a valid message to listen to your "body" and take a break for a couple of days. I totally understand if this is needed. Please, just let me know, which you have already been doing!

It is so tricky. sometimes I can see it for what it is. Just thought. Other times I am deep in the story.

Yes, this is how it is! Sometimes seeing/feeling a sense of clarity and other times getting pulled into the story (thoughts).
This will continue. We cannot stop thinking from happening can we. However, little by little the new "inquiry reflex" that you've been developing will be more and more present as a natural focus of attention, and thought stories will have a less "magnetic" pull.


THOUGHT EXERCISE
Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?


Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem as if thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organized sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Do take your time with this.

Warmly,
Rowena

[LesleyBitzy]

Where are they coming from and going to?

I've no idea.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, nothing.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, nothing.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I can't.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, I can't.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It's impossible.

[Noro]

Hi Lesley,

You are seeing so clearly with the exercises, I thought it would be a good idea to look back at the first lot of questions you answered when Stacy was guiding you and to see how they "land" with you now. Please answer them carefully because old patterns of answering can be activated, and that's not a problem, but I am interested to know what you are referring to when you use the word "I".

How will life change?

I don't think that life will change. It will still be the same life.

How has life changed since you have been doing this enquiry?

How will "you" change?

I will not change. I will still be the same.

How have "you" changed?

What will be different?

I will have stopped seeking. I will have seen that there is no 'self' and there is nothing to discover.

What is different?

What is missing?

If I experience that there is no self then nothing will be missing.

What is missing?


What comes up now when reading the following:
"There is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made-up story that we believed?"
What thoughts and feelings arise? Please share briefly.

Warmly,

Rowena

[LesleyBitzy]

When I use the word, ’I’ it’s referring to the old concepts, philosophies and beliefs, that coloured and filled my life.

How will life change?

I don't think that life will change. It will still be the same life.
Life will not change.

How has life changed since you have been doing this enquiry?

It has not changed.[/quote]

How will "you" change?

I will not change. I will still be the same.
I will not change.

How have "you" changed?

There is no change.

What will be different?

It’s subtle. When you ask,’what will be different it pre-supposes that there is a difference to be had.

What is different?

Nothing is different.

What is missing?

If I experience that there is no self then nothing will be missing.
Nothing is missing.

What is missing?

What is missing is confusion about the term, ’Separate self’.

What comes up now when reading the following:
"There is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made-up story that we believed?"
What thoughts and feelings arise? Please share briefly.

The thoughts that arise are that there is a sense of relief. The feelings that arise are happiness and fear. Its tricky to talk about thoughts and feelings. These are things that the, ’I’ readily discusses and believes in.

[Noro]

Hello Lesley,

What is missing?

What is missing is confusion about the term, ’Separate self’.

Wonderful!

What comes up now when reading the following:
"There is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made-up story that we believed?"
What thoughts and feelings arise? Please share briefly.

The thoughts that arise are that there is a sense of relief. The feelings that arise are happiness and fear. Its tricky to talk about thoughts and feelings. These are things that the, ’I’ readily discusses and believes in.

The sense of relief is a clear pointer that the "illusion" has been seen through. :)

"Feelings of happiness and also fear...."

Very real, honest, and "normal". Even though it has been seen that there is no actual "separate self" there are still old patterns of conditioning in operation and little by little these can be looked at and seen for what they are - old patterns of conditioning!

Its tricky to talk about thoughts and feelings. These are things that the, ’I’ readily discusses and believes in.

YES! Well spotted. it is so easy to take the well worn path of "identifying" with thoughts and feelings. And this provides a wonderful opportunity to continue with investigating, once the "thought trail" has come to a halt.

When I use the word, ’I’ it’s referring to the old concepts, philosophies and beliefs, that coloured and filled my life.

Yes, exactly, and also all the memories etc.

The above is a conceptual answer, which was a perfect response for the question above.
Now let's bring attention to "I" in direct experience.


SENSE OF SELF / "ME" / "I"

The sense of self is an illusion, it is not what it seems.

The "I" is a label. We have this feeling arising that we relate to a sense of self made up of often uncomfortable sensations and over-laid with associated feelings, or a baseline mood.

But is there an actual "I" or a "ME" or a "Self" that can be found?

There might be a familiar sensation that we call a sense of self, but can an actual self be found?
Look deeply at what the sense of self is: all the same thoughts, sensations, feelings. self does not exist.


What is it that senses the feeling of me?
Whatever that is, and whatever it senses, are they separate?
Where is that which senses or perceives located?
Where is that feeling of me located?
Is that 'feeling of me' or 'sense of me' permanent?
If not, does it come and go?
If it can't be found, where does it go?
What knows it's gone?
If the self is the 'me' and then it disappears, how can a 'you' still be here?
Were 'you' ever here?

[Noro]

Lesley,

For those last questions, please answer them from direct or actual experience, not from any intellectual or conceptual response.

Warmly,
Rowena

[LesleyBitzy]

But is there an actual "I" or a "ME" or a "Self" that can be found?

No

What is it that senses the feeling of me?

It's the focus on emotions, thoughts and beliefs.

Whatever that is, and whatever it senses, are they separate?

No they are all the same.

Where is that which senses or perceives located?

It’s located in the belief system that I buy into. Which doesn't exist.

Where is that feeling of me located?

It is located within the sensations inside the body.

Is that 'feeling of me' or 'sense of me' permanent?

No.

If not, does it come and go?

Yes.

If it can't be found, where does it go?

It goes nowhere as it doesn’t exist.

What knows it's gone?

Conciousness knows its gone.

If the self is the 'me' and then it disappears, how can a 'you' still be here?

It can't

Were 'you' ever here?

No. Although sometimes I think I was! When ensconced in emotion and belief systems.

I have tried to answer these questions from direct/actual experience. It is hard to move from intellectual/conceptual response as I am so rooted in it.
I can clearly 'see'. However I then fall back into 'Old roots'. I Flik flak between them.