Help me to enlighten

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

This is wonderful to hear! It’s interesting that the clear seeing seems to have resolved your eating disorder as well. I’m truly happy for you!

Here are some questions we use to check. Depending on your answers, I may ask additional questions or give exercises to help deepen or clarify the shift. Otherwise, I’ll ask other guides to read your responses and make sure seeing is as clear as possible. Please answer what’s true in direct experience now, not from conviction, recent memory, or any “ideal” answer.

1) Is there a separate entity—a self, I, me—at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Love
Liam

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

I hope all is well with you. It's fine to take as much time as you need to respond to questions. I just wanted to let you know that I'll be traveling from 25 January to 2 February. I'll be checking email, but I might take a bit longer to write back. Also, you probably noticed that the website goes down occasionally. I sent you a private message with my email, so that you can contact me if the website goes down.

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hello Liam

Thank you so much for sending your email and for letting me know.

I have just emailed you.

I worked on the questions last night I’m had way through. I save them in my notes part of my phone and will complete them soon.

Have a wonderful time away ! Don’t feel pressure to respond mind - you go have fun ☺️

I appreciate everything you do soo much.

Thank you,

Lots of love,

Nic xx

[Veganmamma]

I hope all is super well with you 🥰

Hope you’re having a lovely time away (don’t rush your response - in your own time okay).

1) Is there a separate entity—a self, I, me—at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

It’s strange but I keep backing off from answering! I’ve had this before when doing this work. Sort of easily distracted, hard to face. A bit twitchy.

No, no separate entity. It’s quite incredible really - I keep noticing I’ll jump up to do something, move, whatever and can see no one decided - just happening happening.

No - there never was a me, however this is the question that seems to make me feel twitchy I’m not sure why.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is a belief. It helps us to identify as individuals and relate to others. It makes us believe that we are in charge of life, of decisions and things to do. It’s really weird, but even as I’m trying to explain this now I feel twitchy like as if somethings not sinking in. (Thoughts!).

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I had an interview for a job the other day and got drawn into the madness of thoughts after. I remind myself to ‘look’ but sometimes the thoughts sort of draw me in. I remind myself that they are just thoughts. There is more of a lightness when I do this, but wonder then if i have really crossed due to this.

As noted above I feel distracted from doing this work it is strange. I believe there is no self - but life is the same. I can see seeing when I look etc but still communicate with others the same, still hang on to horrid thoughts sometimes. Is it supposed to be ‘light’ and like doing a dance? I will always remember you saying ‘who would choose those?!’ About the ‘nasty weather’ thoughts!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Look now, drop the past, drop the future! Drop the stories. You said something like that. This still works! I can look
And see legs, movement, surroundings - no me.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

I feel a more definite freedom
Around this. Less trying to control things like movement, chores etc etc. I don’t feel bad for not doing things anymore as I know they’ll be done when it’s right! I can ‘dilly dally like ‘hm shall I do this or that? This can feel convincing but I suppose there are two choices presented and one will prevail! I know (as I have observed!) that thoughts kick in after - for example I’ll go for a wee then they will say ‘going for a wee’ etc. Thought, after observation can be a bit late to the party!

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

I need to focus (remember) to do this, but I like it when I do. I intend to ‘look’ and can ‘see’. I also see life panning out as it should, do this, do that … less pressure.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Makes me feel a bit better about ‘poor choices or decisions’ I made when I was younger- in that it was life flowing through me. A thought happens and can guide you to where you are meant to be… like I was meant to be a social worker, also meant to recently go off sick. I was never meant to be a mathematician!

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Suffered with binge eating over years. Realise now I was probably hungry from abstaining from ‘too much food’ in the first place. My body was needing food and crying out but I tried to control it. Now I feel more led by umm instinct / life? - eating more. This is working so very well. And - I didn’t get fat!

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Again - previously used to feel bad about ‘not doing enough’. Am starting to relax and ‘go with the flow’, what gets done gets done!

Control is a mental construct that helps the I, to feel important. However, as much as we think we are in control the opposite will happen. So then there is fluctuation and this causes unhappiness. Similar to ‘eating good’ for a day, few days, then succumbing and binge eating and feeling terrible after.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Life. Opportunity presents (whichever way we are meant to go). I’m trying to have faith in this right now as I have signed up with a social work agency. There hasn’t been any offers, things look a bit grim. I need to start to earn money March… Telling myself it will happen (and I don’t want to get burnt out again).

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This was tough! As I understand there is no me to be responsible but know that I can make different decisions depending on what presents… hmm. Okay - if I go to an interview and don’t prep at all I may not get the job. Or maybe that just wasn’t meant to be… yeah I am probably using too much thougt here as I don’t think I’m responsible.

6) Anything to add?

I think perhaps as mentioned above - I’m not sure if this is through the gate as everything is the same! I thought I would be like Ram Dass by now? (I get it - thoughts!!).

Oh - just remembered - I wanted also to say that I have started listening to music, making a rag rug and chilling really (yep - can tell I’m off work - for now😩) which has been lovely. Instead of soul searching / seeking. Previously wouldn’t have allowed myself to do this as would be trying to ‘get it’ or making spells or sending healing to others etc. Those urges are gone - which is lovely. Before I would have worried I’m not developing myself enough.

I would love to hear your feedback (when you are ready) and appreciate you soo much.

Love Nic xx

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

Thanks for your answers. It's clear that this process has been psychologically beneficial, which is wonderful. It's also evident that you've had glimpses of clear seeing but haven't integrated them, which is why you feel that "something is not sinking in" and have so many doubts that you've crashed the gateless gate. I suggest we continue working toward a deeper penetrating and more sustained clear seeing.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This was tough! As I understand there is no me to be responsible but know that I can make different decisions depending on what presents… hmm. Okay - if I go to an interview and don’t prep at all I may not get the job. Or maybe that just wasn’t meant to be… yeah I am probably using too much thougt here as I don’t think I’m responsible.

This response sounds like an intellectual understanding that hasn't penetrated much deeper. Why don't you try the following exercises again, and don't worry, you'll still prep for interviews even though there's no one to prep :-)

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?

Raising Hand Exercise
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not
the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hello Liam I hope all is really well

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I have done these tasks a few times now.

No! Thought definitely doesn’t control it.
Cannot find a controller.
The decision is made as the attention is brought to do it (ie read to do to task, sort of bring it to awareness) and then it just happens.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?

Nothing ! Chose the L or r hand for the exercise!
No separate individual to be found other than in thought.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Nothing! Is choosing which hand to raise.
No separate individual is found who is choosing.
Life?! Is controlling or rather moving throgh the hand.
No controller to be found.
Nothing can be found to make the hand move. Thought is far too slow!
The decision is just made! Attention is brought to the task that is needed to be done through reading or something then it happens.

This is quite apparent. When I look I can 💯 ‘see’ and it’s a knowing. I can also see no I (it is a word). However still scurry along with thoughts sometimes.

Thank you so so much, for your kindness, patience and knowledge 🥰

Love Nic x

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic,

Your responses show clear seeing. How easy were these exercises for you? Do you need more on the same topic?

Here's a body investigation. Have we done this already?

Please follow each step, don't leave any out. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the
sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the
movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of
movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not
from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of
movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only
thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only
sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’? OR is there only
an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hello Liam
Thank you
These look interesting
No we haven’t done them n I’m looking forward to 🥰
Thank you so much xx

[Veganmamma]

Hi Liam

Hope all is well and happy 😊

Have we done this already?

No.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Thoughts suggest that there is.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the
movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of
movement in the mirror?

No. It is thoughts again. However, interesting to observe in a mirror and do the direct inquiry and can see that ‘I’ look like any other objects in the refection.

(4)

Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not
from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of
movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Only thoughts suggest it again.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

No - thoughts of ‘me’. However I could see I looked like any other ‘thing’. So colours and shapes. It does throw me a bit as I move and therefore is a reflection of ‘me’ but I know there is movement and this is a reflection which is colours and shape. Body is a word not ‘me’.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only
thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Thoughts!

(7

) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only
sensations?

Wide open space!
Awareness of say, blinking - sensation only.

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Sensations, fluid really, happening, so - thoughts about walking. Just thoughts about a body.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Walking is just a word so the movement sort of happens.

(9)

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’? OR is there only
an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

An image labelled room. Sensations no location. This was interesting to observe as they literally drift from one sensation to another. When I do this work there is a much less attachment to thoughts. As you said before - sort of expands out, naturally… Also the mirror - everything (including me) appears as one (when I look, when I do this work).

Thank you so much Liam I appreciate you so much,

Love Nic xxxx

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

Good work on these exercises. How was it to do them?

Can you find a Self anywhere right now?

Here's another exercise. Find a time to meditate--several times a day if possible, but they can be short. As you meditate and as you go about the day, notice when the belief in a separate Self comes up. When you notice it, celebrate a bit. (If you're alone, you can even cheer: "There it is! Caught it!")
What is the context?

Is there a story involved?

Is it a habitual story?

What is it that you believe is a separate Self?

Look for the Self. Can you find it?

Where are the sticking points?

What do you think you need to work on?

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hi Liam 🥰

Can you find a Self anywhere right now?

No! I can’t find one I think it is a word. There is a body, thoughts, feelings but not a self.

What is the context?

So- I can ‘see’ clearly that self is a word so is I and me. There are times through the day when I really feel the open spacious awareness and I feel the flow of life - getting up, sitting down.. etc etc. (oh - I did study a bit for the one interview and got the job !). (Although I do love having all this lovely time off!). A few months ago I put pressure on myself to ‘get enlightened’ ready to go back to work. Now - I see that is part of the ‘I’ wanting, expecting and would not be able to ‘get enlightened ’. So I have stopped chasing that and really looking at what is … when I remember throughout the far of course. I can see the big impact the thoughts have … back and forth, past and future, fluffy thoughts, no real substance (although I can get carried away with their train sometimes!). When I ‘look’ I see clarity, I see no worries, I see things without labels I see…. But then I do wonder if this is it..? I also know that is a thought. Is it meant to make me laugh and really ‘hit’ me? Or is this it? How do I know?

Is there a story involved?

I can also see the story! Like ‘is this it!?’ The stillness I see when I look has to be? I wonder then if I am a complicated character who sort of has it ?

Is it a habitual story?

Yes! As above.

What is it that you believe is a separate Self?

I don’t think I do … but wonder how it isn’t crispy clear.

Look for the Self. Can you find it?

No.

Where are the sticking points?

Wondering if this is it ?

What do you think you need to work on?

Beliefs and thoughts maybe ? If I am wondering if this it it?

Did you KNOW? Like really know? Or go back and forth like me?

Thank you so so much xxx

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

When I ‘look’ I see clarity, I see no worries, I see things without labels I see…. But then I do wonder if this is it..? I also know that is a thought. Is it meant to make me laugh and really ‘hit’ me? Or is this it? How do I know?

Many people who go through this process experience a shift in which they realize that there is no self, and they no longer have doubts about this. Expectations can really interfere with the process, so you might want to go back to "Liberation Unleashed is not..." https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

I wonder then if I am a complicated character who sort of has it ?

Can you see that this is a story?

Where are the sticking points?

Wondering if this is it ?

Why do you think this is not it?
What are you expecting "it" to be?

Did you KNOW? Like really know? Or go back and forth like me?

My process was a bit different. I had a lot of meditation and retreat experience in a Buddhist tradition and had experienced periods of "no self" and "unity with everything." These experiences felt very blissful and carefree, even life-changing, but the belief in a separate self would reemerge, though perhaps in a weakened state. To deal with it, I had to let go of some expectations and also do some inquiry work, which is what we do in LU. A book by Adyashanti titled The End of Your World was especially helpful with expectations. I recommend it highly. There's also a nondual teacher named Angelo Dilullo, who posts YouTube videos on inquiry, and I found his videos and book helpful. Pernille Damore-Lent has a YouTube channel called "The Awakening Curriculum," and the second part is "The Doubt Curriculum." I've watched some of her videos, and you may find them helpful.

Here's another thought exercise.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please
feel free to find one to do this exercise with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw
1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a
round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.
2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the
commentary turned ON.
Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how,
even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on,
as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may
seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with
one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.
3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible
commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences
in what is appearing as experience.
4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking
about, and just notice it as sound.
What did you find when doing this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to
happen?

Love
Liam

[Kaiho]

Hello again, Nic

Hope you're having a good weekend. I wanted to respond a bit more to these questions.

Did you KNOW? Like really know? Or go back and forth like me?

Can you see that your descriptions of doubt--of going back and forth--is a story?

Can you see that any response from me is also a story?

When you describe your path of seeking up to this point, is that description what you really are?

In the story of your life, can you find what you really are?

The crux of the matter is not whether your life story (or the story of your journey as a seeker) is the same or different from others. This is not about comparing a story about "you" to a story about "me" or someone else. The point is to look at the story that you've always thought was about your life and ask:

Can you find a self in it?

Is it what you really are?

What are you?


Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hello Liam

I really like this other responses too!

Will get back to you.

I want to thank you very much 🥰

Nic x

[Veganmamma]

Hello lovely Liam

I hope all is going so well.

I did the responses a couple of days ago and clicked send and it didn’t! I had to log in again so lost the work so I copied and pasted this onto a document on my phone. Sorry it’s late.

I want to say thank you so much for sharing your story with me 🥰 I have ordered the Adyashanti book (and started reading the sample on my phone through kindle :) I have the Angello Dillullo book! I have also listen to some Pernille info on YouTube (like ‘unpinning’). EmersonNonDuality also very good.

Can you see that your descriptions of doubt--of going back and forth-is a story?

Yes! I can! Oh wow I can see all everything is story! When people are talking to me I see them saying stories, when they say ‘I’ I can see there is no I…

Can you see that any response from me is also a story?

Yes. However, seem to go along with it - until I look, and realise…

When you describe your path of seeking up to this point, is that description what you really are?

No! As it has changed so much. (Another story lol!). As I look right now and ‘see’ sort of the bigger picture, the real me, this has always stayed, witnessing.

Next door just started playing amp guitar this triggers me so much . I’m waiting for it and heart pounds when he does. Will this improve when I know 💯 there is no me. I’m so confused though as I do know there is no me ?😩 so - I wrote this the other day. I believe now that my body will respond but I just need to know that this is natural and I need to honour it and do something else… but that it is NOT a me.

In the story of your life, can you find what you really are?

No. Sensations, heart beat, movement, thoughts.

Can you find a self in it?

No. See above. Then why do I get carried along with thoughts etc 😩 Again, wrote this the other day. Last night in bed I could see the stream of thoughts as part of the wider area, as part of say the background noise, I could see no I, just thoughts.

]

Is it what you really are?[/quote

No! I can see clearer today and know they are just thoughts.

What are you?

Don’t know. Big I think. But also nothing! Stillness. Thoughts are there. Sensations are there, noise is there.

About me being a complicated character who struggles to get it … Can you see that this is a story?

Yes. I also see the stories of ‘is this it? Is this not it’ as stories. So…. If this is it, I mean it really is plain! It’s the bits without being attached to the thought worries, when I zone into them and see them as bits of fluff, when they morph and squirm. It’s ‘life’ as is … it’s when it says ‘is this it?’ I think’ ‘no, can’t be’ but it is .. as I am aware of the thoughts..? I mean, really plain! Normal..?

Why do you think this is not it?

I expect it to look so so obvious (the no self) I expect to laugh at the simplicity. Wrote this the other day… realise, I would be laughing constantly if I had that experience again ! I had a couple of laughing experiences which were so cool! But … they are experiences aren’t they?! Like crying or even spiritual cool experiences. They are not ‘the norm’. I suppose then it’s only thought that is making me think ‘it’s not it’ and I’m getting wise to that!

What are you expecting "it" to be?

I did revisit the link about expectations. I suppose I expect to laugh at how obvious it is like before.

The video on YouTube …

What did you find when doing this exercise?

It reminded me of thoughts ..! Babbling on unnecessary through life, day to day living. I could feel the bodily reactions like heightening as he was commenting. Could see he wanted to sway our thoughts to agree with him, to see what he was narrating as fact.

Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?

No. It was fluid and perfect without the commenting. In fact, seemed natural, more peaceful.

And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to
happen?

No! See above! This was a nice realisation. I always thought that when thought takes hold, you need more thought, to try to pacify it. Whether from self or someone else. Say a ‘work worry’ then I need reassurance from another to calm it. But maybe not… I was overthinking the other day worried about something going wrong, I’d ’said too much’ bla .. and did the exercise you taught me… so I extended the thought outwards… it was helpful. My thoughts can really grip me sometimes though, coupled with the heart pounding feels quite scary. I am more able to see they are thoughts though with my knowledge from doing this work with you. I will keep practising / as in seeing that they are just thoughts. Wrote this the other day and things do seem a little clearer since even then..

Thank you so so much ❤️

Nic xxxx