Would love guidance for seeing no self more clearly

[ostrich]

Is it still theoretical?

For the most part no. Although when I'm interacting with others or experiencing stronger emotions, it does seem theoretical. It feels like I forget what I've learned and experienced and just go back to my old way of relating with myself and the world.

Is seeking still present?

I think so. I still find myself trying to avoid or change uncomfortable emotions throughout the day. And wanting to be identified less with the self and to see the self more clearly.

[graceabounds]

feels like I forget what I've learned and experienced

Where is the one who “forgets”? Where exactly is this “self” that reappears when emotion arises?

Is it a location? A feeling? A position in the body?
What is actually there?

I still find myself trying to avoid or change uncomfortable emotions throughout the day.

Working with the desire to change what is often happens on its own after clear seeing of a separate self, kind of as a 'next' phase of inquiry...

But for now, look: Is there anyone in control of what emotions appear?

[ostrich]

Where is the one who “forgets”? Where exactly is this “self” that reappears when emotion arises?

Is it a location? A feeling? A position in the body?
What is actually there?

There isn't a self per se. It's more like tension in my head and a constant stream of thoughts about "I". "I" need to do this. "I" should avoid that. "I" don't like this. What should "I" say. Lots of planning and ruminating with the assumption that "I" have control and that "I" am real. So much so that thoughts that suggest otherwise don't appear and the entire experience is filtered by "I".

But for now, look: Is there anyone in control of what emotions appear?

As far as I can tell, no. Sensations and thoughts arise and then emotions often appear. Although, it feels like my system behaves in a way with assumption that I have some amount of control over the emotions that do appear. For example, I'll distract myself or keep myself occupied so that I'm not as aware of the anxiety that I'm feeling.

[graceabounds]

Very good seeing.

So taking a closer look, is it that these voices (thoughts) are controlling these behaviors in any way? Try this out.
Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behavior; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

assumption that I have some amount of control over the emotions that do appear. For example, I'll distract myself or keep myself occupied so that I'm not as aware of the anxiety that I'm feeling.

Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice-point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

And then sit directly inside the anxiety for a few minutes and look:
Who is avoiding it? Where is the one doing the distracting?

Don’t settle for “I do.” Look for the mechanism. Is it thought? Is it movement? What exactly is doing the distracting?

And underneath that, what is being protected?

It's more like tension in my head and a constant stream of thoughts about "I"

Yes.

Is that sensation in the head personal?
Does it refer to someone?
Is there any evidence that there is a “you” inside the sensation?

[ostrich]

So taking a closer look, is it that these voices (thoughts) are controlling these behaviors in any way? Try this out.
Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behavior; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

The thoughts don't control the behaviors. The thoughts were just guesses and comments. As I did the exercise, I had the thought I have no clue what will be eaten first and when they will be eaten. There was this sense of powerlessness because the behavior could contradict the thought at any moment.

Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice-point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

I wish. I have no control over the emotion, mind state, attitude or the stimulus. They just happen and the closest thing that happens is that I may have thoughts about having control

And then sit directly inside the anxiety for a few minutes and look:
Who is avoiding it? Where is the one doing the distracting?

Don’t settle for “I do.” Look for the mechanism. Is it thought? Is it movement? What exactly is doing the distracting?

And underneath that, what is being protected?

Wasn't able to find anyone avoiding or distracting. They are just thoughts that try to explain the series of previous sensations and thoughts.

There's a sense that "I" am being protected and that "I" can't handle the emotions and sensations. But when I look I can't find the "I". It's just a bunch of thoughts and sensations.

Is that sensation in the head personal?
Does it refer to someone?
Is there any evidence that there is a “you” inside the sensation?

No to all the questions. when I look, the sensations change and sometimes disappear. there's evidence of an idea of a "me" but no evidence of a "me".

[graceabounds]

Very good. Clear.

There was this sense of powerlessness because the behavior could contradict the thought at any moment.

This sense of being powerless at first is like noticing being adrift in a boat with no sign of land. But it has always been this way. This illusion of being a someone who could control what happens was never real. It just is.

Is there anything present that tries to escape that honesty?

Is powerlessness a label added on to an experience? What qualities does the raw direct experience have?

There's a sense that "I" am being protected and that "I" can't handle the emotions and sensations. But when I look I can't find the "I". It's just a bunch of thoughts and sensations.

Great, so no ‘I’ is being protected here, only an IDEA of I.

So stare directly into that now. Let the “I can’t handle this” arise. Just invite it fully… say SHOW ME and let the system show you everything it believes you can’t survive.

Shame. Panic. Grief. Rage. Despair. All of it. Whatever is here. Let it all wash over and look again:

Where is the one being overwhelmed?

Look for the actual, experiential “I” that is being “protected.”

Can it be found? Or is it just more thoughts protecting nothing?

This is the gate.

[ostrich]

Didn't get a chance to answer the questions and do the exercises today. Will do them tomorrow.

[ostrich]

Meant to respond yesterday but I couldn't get this website to work on my computer yesterday evening.

Is there anything present that tries to escape that honesty?

It feels like there are thoughts that try to prevent me more seeing this more clearly.

Is powerlessness a label added on to an experience? What qualities does the raw direct experience have?

Yes, powerlessness is a label added on to the experience. There's a feeling of fear in the raw direct experience.

So stare directly into that now. Let the “I can’t handle this” arise. Just invite it fully… say SHOW ME and let the system show you everything it believes you can’t survive.

Shame. Panic. Grief. Rage. Despair. All of it. Whatever is here. Let it all wash over and look again:

Don't feel like I've been able to fully do this exercise. I tried today and yesterday but it feels like my system isn't showing me everything. Slightly uncomfortable sensations arise but nothing that intense. I hope I can remember to try this exercise when more intense emotions come up during the day.

Where is the one being overwhelmed?

Look for the actual, experiential “I” that is being “protected.”

Can it be found? Or is it just more thoughts protecting nothing?

From what my system did show me, I just find sensations and thoughts. in particular, there's a pull to identify with the sensations so it feels like there's a concrete "I" being protected.

[graceabounds]

Hi,

Yes the site went down for a day. Back up and running now. :)

It feels like there are thoughts that try to prevent me more seeing this more clearly.

Does “seeing clearly” require a thought to confirm it?
Or is that another thought after the seeing?

Is there an entity being obscured by thought?

There's a feeling of fear in the raw direct experience.

Does the raw feeling of fear have an ‘I’ inside of it?

Don't feel like I've been able to fully do this exercise. I tried today and yesterday but it feels like my system isn't showing me everything. Slightly uncomfortable sensations arise but nothing that intense.

It is ok if there isn’t something intense. Just allowing whatever is here is the process.

From what my system did show me, I just find sensations and thoughts. in particular, there's a pull to identify with the sensations so it feels like there's a concrete "I" being protected.

Where is this concrete I? How is it known?

Is ‘feels like’ a sensation or a thought in this case?

[ostrich]

Does “seeing clearly” require a thought to confirm it?

no

Or is that another thought after the seeing?

yes, it's a thought about the impact of the previous thoughts

Is there an entity being obscured by thought?

hm... it's more like the thoughts obscure awareness. it obscures sensations and probably other thoughts too.

Does the raw feeling of fear have an ‘I’ inside of it?

nope, it's just sensations

Where is this concrete I? How is it known?

There is no concrete I. or at least I've never been able to find it. It's referenced by the thoughts.

Is ‘feels like’ a sensation or a thought in this case?

Both. there's the sensation of a pulling tension in my head and also the thought that I am the concrete "I"

[graceabounds]

Perfect. Now look closer:
Is that sensation of pulling tension in the head doing anything, or is it just appearing?
Is the thought “I am I” attached to something, or is it just floating there, unclaimed?

Feel the pull in the head directly for a little while. Look at it as if you were looking out the window to check the weather outside.

Where is the “I” in that tension? Notice if thought says, “This is me. I feel this.” But without referencing thought what is really there?… IS IT anything at all? Anything more than a tight sensation?

it's more like the thoughts obscure awareness. it obscures sensations and probably other thoughts too.

What exactly is obscured?
…is there a you being obscured?

Or again just sensation and thought with this separate story that “This is happening to me”?

[ostrich]

Is that sensation of pulling tension in the head doing anything, or is it just appearing?

It's just appearing

Is the thought “I am I” attached to something, or is it just floating there, unclaimed?

hm... I at first thought it was attaching to the sensation but when I look more closely it is just floating there. From what I can tell, there's a thought that the "I am I" thought has a location near/at the sensation. In summary, I think I'm combining thoughts. Like there's a thought and another thought about the location of that thought, and thinking that thought had that location when that is actually another thought.

Where is the “I” in that tension? Notice if thought says, “This is me. I feel this.” But without referencing thought what is really there?… IS IT anything at all? Anything more than a tight sensation?

There is no "I" in the tension. Excluding the thoughts, I can only find sensations

What exactly is obscured?
…is there a you being obscured?
Or again just sensation and thought with this separate story that “This is happening to me”?

I don't think there's a me being obscured.
I'm still thinking that the awareness is being obscured. But maybe it's more like the sensations that I associate with the spacious awareness aren't arising? hm... and a thought that "this is happening to me".

[graceabounds]

Very astute!

I at first thought it was attaching to the sensation but when I look more closely it is just floating there. From what I can tell, there's a thought that the "I am I" thought has a location near/at the sensation. In summary, I think I'm combining thoughts. Like there's a thought and another thought about the location of that thought, and thinking that thought had that location when that is actually another thought.

If all thoughts stopped right now, what remains?
And who is missing?

I'm still thinking that the awareness is being obscured. But maybe it's more like the sensations that I associate with the spacious awareness aren't arising?

Could you describe the sensations that are being looked for/associated?

Is the spacious awareness a distinct thing?

Whatever is here is here...

Is there anything outside of this appearing?
...Where is awareness in that? Is it apart from it, behind it, observing it? Or is that another thought claiming there’s something missing?

[ostrich]

sorry, was avoiding looking into this the last two days.

If all thoughts stopped right now, what remains?
And who is missing?

sensations remain. the "I" is missing

Could you describe the sensations that are being looked for/associated?

I think it's a mix of things.
less tension in my head
more clarity in the visual field
body feels a bit more relaxed and there's less tension
there's more comfort with what is
focus feels less concentrated

Is the spacious awareness a distinct thing?

Whatever is here is here...

Is there anything outside of this appearing?
...Where is awareness in that? Is it apart from it, behind it, observing it? Or is that another thought claiming there’s something missing?

no, everything is in the awareness. hm... there definitely is a thought that something is missing

[graceabounds]

everything is in the awareness

Is ‘awareness’ a word that labels anything? Is it necessary?

If everything is there what is left out?

Is awareness merely a thought that acts as some sort of mental buffer for what simply is? Is anything (or everything) actually one step removed?


Don’t avoid this one… ;)