WideSkyInquiry

[WideSky]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? That our sense of being a separate self who is control of our lives and holds the essence of our bring is illusory, likely created by a combination of sensation and inner narration.

What are you looking for at LU? Support to look at this systematically - I've done lots of reading over the years and some inquiry but not intensely or with support. I'm working with the Awakening Curriculum material too (Pernille and Todd Lent-Damore) , but find myself skipping the inquiries. My hope is that doing this will support a more systematic approach and resolve any lingering doubt.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Suggestions, challenge, ideas to work with in my daily life. Hopefully some kindness and humour! A sense of being with a human rather than an AI, I've played with a few of these. I think having someone else notice my blind spots could be super helpful.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I've been engaged in practices / seeking for about 4 years - I worked my way through the Sam Harris material on his app and established a meditation practice. I did the Finders Course and am doing 45 days to Awakening right now (a daily hour of meditation plus positive psychology exercises). I listen weekly to Todd and Pernille's stuff and have attended their inquiry group. I have also been working through The Mind Illuminated and attend a TMI Sangha and Will Johnson's embodiment Sangha. I am entirely preoccupied with this exploration, with some intensity since last summer.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poppyseed]

Hi WideSky
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[WideSky]

what do you want me to call you?

Hi Rali, you can call me Abi - thank you so much for your time and willingness to support me with this.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them

Yes, I've read these.

What time zone are you in?

London GMT

A daily conversation shouldn't be an issue :-)

Love Abi

[poppyseed]

Hi Abi
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

London GMT

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

A daily conversation shouldn't be an issue :-)

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[WideSky]

Dear Rali,

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

Nothing significant in my life. Essentially if there never has been a separate self, then life will just keep unfolding as it ever has, as nothing will have changed except a belief.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

My sense is this is already in process given the work done looking into thoughts and feelings as part of the Awakening Curriculum (I've paused this while you and I are talking). What I have noticed is more present moment awareness, more relaxation, more equanimity. Planning and striving show up less. Reactivity still flares occasionally but is easier to pick using Byron Katie's questions or separating out the thoughts from the somatics, and sitting with the somatics. I think what I expect is more peacefulness but I'm also not expecting to be imperturbable given all my conditioning.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I'd like for frustration not to show up, to persevere and not give up. To persist with the inquiry. Sometimes a sense of physical contraction shows up, and the thought that I should be able to control certain things. I guess I experience an aversion to this experience but also accept it may continue to show up. But the honest answer is that I rather it didn't!

4. What are you hoping for?

A sense of conviction that the self illusion has been categorically seen through and this fetter can be moved on from. A dropping of the last vestiges of doubt about this.

5. What is missing?

In this moment - nothing.

Love Abi

[poppyseed]

Hi Abi

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I'd like for frustration not to show up, to persevere and not give up. To persist with the inquiry. Sometimes a sense of physical contraction shows up, and the thought that I should be able to control certain things. I guess I experience an aversion to this experience but also accept it may continue to show up. But the honest answer is that I rather it didn't!

What we’ll see soon is that frustration and resistance are just a sensations with a thought. Resistance has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes - the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be emotions involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with resistance initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...
Frustration is linked to expectations – not achieving the perceived benefits of awakening, failing to succeed where supposed others have achieved/not getting it. But that comes back again to the one doing the inquiry, getting the benefits of it. So…
If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[WideSky]

Is that OK with you?

Yes :-)

If you look for the I, what is there?

Everything goes quiet for a second. Sensation in the back of my shoulders, my head, almost as though I could somehow look and find myself behind myself.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

That these are processes that run themselves. Verbs. My sense is that if I don't choose a single one of my thoughts then I'm not choosing anything - choosing is happening, narration is happening, actions unfold. There's no command control. No resistance to this.

Where exactly did you look?

My attention went to my back - this seems to happen every time I try it. Then to sensation in my forehead. The thought - I don't know where to look' arose.

What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Sensations coming and going, warmth, tingling. Narration starting and stopping, mostly echoing the question and what I have been writing. An internally generated picture of the back of me.

[poppyseed]

Hi Abi

Thank you for your honest and thorough reply – it gives me an idea where to point. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience.

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing/colour
Hearing/sound
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)/sensation
Tasting/taste
Smelling/smell
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.


Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[WideSky]

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I understand what you are asking me to do.

In direct experience there is colour and contrasting colours.
Then there is a thought about labelling - a shape, a name.

I just cut up an apple for my lunch - in DE there was also a smell, a texture. And thoughts - labelling thoughts, future planning thoughts.

So going back to your original question, if I look for a self, there are sensations and sometimes thoughts, often habitual thoughts owning sensation - 'my back' 'my leg'. But no self in DE.

[poppyseed]

Hi Abi
Wonderful looking!

In direct experience there is colour and contrasting colours.
Then there is a thought about labelling - a shape, a name.

I just cut up an apple for my lunch - in DE there was also a smell, a texture. And thoughts - labelling thoughts, future planning thoughts.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life. I want reports not examples from thought

So going back to your original question, if I look for a self, there are sensations and sometimes thoughts, often habitual thoughts owning sensation - 'my back' 'my leg'. But no self in DE.

Did you look or you just made a logical conclusion?

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Abi

Here are the questions as per our conversation. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love
Rali