I had been relying on habitualy naming of things in order to feel stable

[graceabounds]

Is there still seeking?

[rich879]

Actually, the seeking remains when trying to answer questions about myself.

[graceabounds]

Which one of these is each "I" in that sentence closest to? Please choose from the below three:

 1. thought
 2. visual image
 3. bodily sensation

In other words, which one is “trying to answer” and which one is “about myself”?
Also if there is a sense of self implied in “the seeking” that remains, give me that too… :)

[rich879]

When beginning to answer, I felt something then thought said, "ok, have to answer very carefully." It was the same process as my previous post.

First a sensation in the chest area.
Then I notice a hard to describe sensation, like a buzzing energy that feels like effort in my head. Then I start to select words, or at least it seems like I, but at that point I have been subsumed by the activity. The I is a thought that I associate with the buzzing effort. It's a very old pattern. The associations are very quick, but I can feel the sensations as distinct from thought when not subsumed.

[graceabounds]

The I is a thought that I associate with the buzzing effort

So, unpin. When not associated, is the buzzing still effort-full?

What is all this from the perspective of the buzzing?


Is it the same process if the question floats by:

Is there I?

[rich879]

So when attention jumps to a sensation I should also be open to any thoughts that are associated with it, so that thought is seen as thought and the sensation is seen as sensation.

"I" would be the dissonance that comes when the sensation and thoughts are mixed!

The same would apply with thoughts associating with different thoughts or other images that appear to mind.
The dissonance is where the "I" has been hiding.

[graceabounds]

Yes exactly.

The dissonance is the ‘I’ illusion.

And if we look at this formula now:
thought + sensation = emotion

The whole thing falls apart when the presumed link between the two is severed. (As a side note, feelings like love and gratitude stay, I’m referring more to things like resentment, frustration, envy… those that are built on underlying thoughts… when the thought is seen as non-self-referential the feeling may briefly arise and then deflate like a balloon)

So, practically, notice a sensation.
Let thought say whatever it wants about it.
Watch both clearly and separately.

Is there any entity between them?
Is there a you in that?

Or is “you” just the blur that happens when those two collapse into one mess?

An overlay… a supposition… a fiction
:)

[rich879]

You've helped me a lot.
Thank you very much :)

[graceabounds]

:)

How does it FEEL to see this?

Have there been any differences in day to day life of late?

[rich879]

I feel alive, exposed, super real.
Its coming more easily and its not going away.
I've been letting things go and moving in new directions and its been easy.
A tremor comes in my energy and it feels kind of exciting to feel it move and to see the curious thoughts that come with it.
I'm more generous with my time and less reactive. That alone is so good.
There's far less internal juggling and searching.
I'm so grateful but also very accepting.

[rich879]

I feel good!

[graceabounds]

❤️

Is it clear that there is no separate self at all, never has been, never will be?

[rich879]

The selfing continues but I see that it is selfing. All memories as they occur are a literal floating image and its like I can feel the life that they want to tell the story of, and I feel the corresponding tightening of some region in my body or mind. Even when the story absorbs my attention, I soon emerge out once more and its just the senses and mind again.
Yes, I can see that there is no self. And I noticed a little bit of selfing take shape just as I wrote those words, offering resistance to the acknowledgement that there is no separate self.

[graceabounds]

Beautiful.

I’m going to offer a series of questions now to uncover any remaining gaps in clear seeing. Look into each and continue to report immediately from the raw experience itself, not a concept or philosophy about it. :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

In gratitude,
Becca

[rich879]

1) There are is no separate anything that can be found occurring in any sense field or appearance to mind. Everything in my senses and all that appears to mind are compose of sense-mind and thought-mind. I can see this clearly. I can also see that sense mind and thought mind are also apparently their own things, but are actually both occurring to awareness, which honestly I cannot define except to say that all things appear to it. These words are my best attempt at describing what I see immediately.

2) There is a fuzzy blob that moves and vibrates. When I look at the associated impression alongside it, I see that I am labelling it as "me". I have a feeling of moving that comes into sharper focus repeatedly, making the impression of my "head", and then begins to speak of me with more detail. The thoughts disappear and get replaced with another soon after. Some of the thoughts speak of "memory" but I can see that they are thoughts about thoughts. There is sometimes a feeling of continuity that mixes these impressions together into a dream that I inhabit, but when attention sharpers again, the dream fades.

3) It's hard to explain how it feels. It does feel good, in that I don't have any desire to change it. I'm not suffering despite there being some physical pain and some resistance in my heart. It feels like freedom to just do or not do whatever I want, without explanation. Before the dialogue, I was close to this but there was lingering questions about how I might not be practicing correctly and other concerns. I was getting existential fears and also worrying about the possible damage I might be doing to my mind, or if the changes coming over me are part of some decline. I would seek out evidence to prove or disprove my doubts.

4) The main change is the decoupling of thought from sensation, and recognising that hiding place in the dissonant feeling. I had somehow missed this for years, but it is certainly a subtle trap. There is still movement in decoupling to go. I had somehow developed a will to see the thoughts and sensations as part of the whole and was employing a subtle belief that I needed to direct my attention in the correct way to make it so. The effect is a deeper peace and cleaner movement.

5) Decision: It sometimes seems like the body has its own agenda. It sometimes feels like I need to wait for a decision to just happen. Thoughts appear with images and stories about possibilities and things I want, but what I actually do is not something I can actually predict. Attempts to do so refer to past actions, and appear correct only by circumstance. Writing this requires confidence.

Intention: Immediately my heart came to attention. It's a bittersweet feeling and it appears to be the main guiding force in my overall intentionality. Other motivations are also inspired by the body. It wants to move and type and eat and play, all the other things I do. I don't know yet whether the sensations are causing my actions or if they are co-occurring. I do see thought as co-occurring. Noticing what I just wrote, it occurs that intention was already there (or not there at all!).

Free Will: This one seems meaningless to me because I can't find the will that is doing anything as separate from the things that I'm doing, so it would be like calling everything I do "will". Free is kind of the same.

Choice: Seems like maybe the only choice is to view what's happening or not, but even that doesn't seem to be under my control. No choices then, strangely.

Control: Control feels like tension and confusion. I feel tensions and there are thoughts that talk about what I might or should be doing, but when I actual do something, there's no switch that gets pulled or marionette that pulls a string. I just end up doing the thing. Tensions accompany thoughts that tell me when I shouldn't be doing a thing, and the tension are like a drag-net. There's selfing going on here that I've yet to see.

6) Things happen because they can. Without going into science, cause and effect etc... everything is moving or not, including the body and mind. My legs seem to really like moving. My hands move all the time, and they like it. It doesn't feel like they are separate and doing their own thing, it's more like I'm just enjoying movement in all the ways it happens. This body and its surroundings are all part of the same flow of movement. The mind is also in flow of movement. It seems to overlap the sense world, but movement happens in both realms. There's also a strange sense of non-locality going on, like, the impression of being in the middle of things has faded, so movement is more real than position.

7) In a thought sense, I have caused pain to people and been a part of things that have happened that I feel like are my fault even though I am not in control of it. That feeling of responsibility has been a driving force in my practice. I have hurt people and animals in various ways and I don't want to hurt them; never did. I could talk about my responsibility to my family, my job and all that but it re-awakens all the old notions of choice and intention. I act as if those things are real and matter and it seems essential that I do, even if I can't find them directly right now.

I'm so grateful to you. You are skilled with your pointing. I would take your attention as much as you would give it, though I'm sure there's others who need you. The every-day is so strange, but trying to describe it to others somehow always ends up with diminished delivery. You can't package this. I used to try and describe my experience to people but that desire has died down and feel like interactions require such care. I can see that what there is of my remaining selfing is a fear of doing harm.

Anyway, thank you Becca :)