Would love guidance for seeing no self more clearly

[graceabounds]

Very good.

Continue exploring this for another day, and a few minutes each day going forward…

Next look:

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’ , what is the actual experience? Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?
Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

[ostrich]

Continue exploring this for another day, and a few minutes each day going forward…

will do. I've noticed that sometimes it feels like "I" am doing the labelling. When I label the "I" sensation as a thought (not sure if this is the right label), there is this feeling of less effort and more expansiveness, and the "I" which I felt like was labelling loosens.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’ , what is the actual experience? Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

I experience the color red while vocalizing the word green in my head.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

No it doesn't have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’ and the label suggests something else.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the color red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

It feels like the green label overlays the actual experience. I was thinking that 'green' can get associated with the experience of the color red through subsequent thoughts but when that happens it doesn't feel like I'm experiencing the color red anymore. It feels more like I'm experiencing the thoughts of association.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The redness isn't affected but it feels like it can affect my thoughts on redness. The labels have no affect whosoever on 'reality'.

[graceabounds]

I've noticed that sometimes it feels like "I" am doing the labelling

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self
side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

[ostrich]

I had a hard time with this exercise. It feels like I'm missing a lot of thoughts. My sense is that many thoughts are happening and I'm only catching some of them. Of the thoughts I was able to catch, maybe like 90% of them referred back to the self. There's a constant judgement about the current experience. When a sensation or thought arises, there tends to be an automatic labelling of whether it's pleasant, unpleasant or neutral (for the self), and then what I should do about it. With sounds, there's often a "does this sound affect me?" thought.

I tried to keep this exercise in mind throughout the day too, and it felt like the vast majority of the thoughts were about the self. Planning, worrying, wanting, judging, avoiding and etc. It seems like most of my experience is filtered by how it affects me and how I feel about it

[graceabounds]

You accomplished the objective of the exercise, which was to notice that thoughts are self-referential.

So coming back to look... are these thoughts ‘me’ or ‘mine’? Does a you take ownership of them?

Is there anything lost in the gap between thoughts?

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

[ostrich]

So coming back to look... are these thoughts ‘me’ or ‘mine’? Does a you take ownership of them?

The vast majority of the time, it does feel like there's a me that takes ownership of all the thoughts. It feels like a subtle almost constantly repeating thought.

Is there anything lost in the gap between thoughts?

Every now and then there wasn't a sense of "I" there. It felt like there was just experience.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

When I put too much effort into observing, it felt like there were no gaps because it would feel like there was a "I'm observing a gap" thought in the gaps between the other thoughts.

[graceabounds]

The vast majority of the time, it does feel like there's a me that takes ownership of all the thoughts. It feels like a subtle almost constantly repeating thought.

Feel that now. Where exactly is that owner?

Is there any control over this whatsoever?
Or is it a function of the mechanism of thought to do this?

Every now and then there wasn't a sense of "I" there. It felt like there was just experience.

Beautiful.

From here, can you notice, in this moment, any gap between seeing, hearing, sensing… and an “I” doing those things?

Is “you” seeing this screen?

Or is there just… seeing?

[ostrich]

Feel that now. Where exactly is that owner?

It feels like it's in my head

Is there any control over this whatsoever?
Or is it a function of the mechanism of thought to do this?

It doesn't feel like I have control over it. It comes and goes. Although it does feel like I can relate to it differently, like I can identify with it less. Instead of seeing it as me, seeing it more like a thought and/or sensation.

From here, can you notice, in this moment, any gap between seeing, hearing, sensing… and an “I” doing those things?

It feels like I can. Not sure I'm interpreting your question correctly. There's always seeing, hearing and sensing but it doesn't feel like there is always an "I" doing those things.

Is “you” seeing this screen?

Or is there just… seeing?

It feels like "I" am seeing the screen, although the "I" feels unstable and sometimes weak. Thinking about the question and using the computer has a tendency to bring back the "I" feeling and strengthen it.

[graceabounds]

There's always seeing, hearing and sensing but it doesn't feel like there is always an "I" doing those things

If there is not always an ‘I’ doing the doing is there ever an ‘I’ capable of doing?

It feels like "I" am seeing the screen, although the "I" feels unstable and sometimes weak. Thinking about the question and using the computer has a tendency to bring back the "I" feeling and strengthen it.

Yes. And what happens if you don’t think about the question, and just sit here with what is already happening?

This sense, feeling like it is in the head… is that what arises and falls?

Is that sensation thought? Does thought have a sensation?

[ostrich]

If there is not always an ‘I’ doing the doing is there ever an ‘I’ capable of doing?

no

Yes. And what happens if you don’t think about the question, and just sit here with what is already happening?

Most of the time there is the sense that "I" am trying to sit here with what is already happening. Occasionally it briefly feels like things are just happening.

This sense, feeling like it is in the head… is that what arises and falls?

yes

Is that sensation thought? Does thought have a sensation?

I think so, that sensation feels like a thought. In the moment, I have a hard time telling the difference between some thoughts and sensations. It feels like distinguishing between the two requires another thought.

[graceabounds]

Hi John,

Occasionally it briefly feels like things are just happening.

What is experienced in the body, in the senses, at these times?

I think so, that sensation feels like a thought. In the moment, I have a hard time telling the difference between some thoughts and sensations. It feels like distinguishing between the two requires another thought

What actually makes this moment seem like “you” are here?

Sit still for a few seconds, feel into what’s here. Don’t try to sort thoughts from sensations. Let both be there.

Then say, in your mind:
“I am here.”
…and watch what moves.
Watch what responds.
Feel what exactly says “yes” to that phrase.

Then say:
“There is no one here.”
And again watch what moves.
What contracts? What recoils?

That is the illusion of “I.”
A movement Not a self.

-Becca

[ostrich]

What is experienced in the body, in the senses, at these times?

My head feels more empty. Vision feels a bit more zoomed out and feels like there's more clarity in my vision and more details in the sensations. There's also a bit of warmth in my body and this feeling of okayness.

What actually makes this moment seem like “you” are here?

It seems to be the sensation in my head and a thought that "I" am here and that "I" am the one in control and doing things.

Sit still for a few seconds, feel into what’s here. Don’t try to sort thoughts from sensations. Let both be there.

Then say, in your mind:
“I am here.”
…and watch what moves.
Watch what responds.
Feel what exactly says “yes” to that phrase.

Then say:
“There is no one here.”
And again watch what moves.
What contracts? What recoils?

Doing the exercise makes my head hurt. The head sensation that is associated with "I" seems to respond to "I am here", and when I say "There is no one here", the sensation gets more intense as if to protest the statement. Feels like there's a pull to get fully caught in the "I" sensation and ignore the spaciousness around it.

That is the illusion of “I.”
A movement Not a self.

I think I was able to experience what you mean by that movement being the illusion of "I". I still frequently identify with the "I" but feel like I've been seeing it and experiencing it as an illusion more. Not sure if I'm fully seeing it though. I've been noticing throughout the day that the belief that "I" did something comes a little after the action which I've been finding kind of funny and ridiculous.

[graceabounds]

It is funny and ridiculous! Keep catching it, this is the real ‘work’!

It seems to be the sensation in my head and a thought that "I" am here and that "I" am the one in control and doing things.

Precisely. It is a thought. And yes it comes AFTER the action :)

Not sure if I'm fully seeing it though.

Is there evidence for this outside of thought?


You know what the sensation of selfing is now. So, is there an ‘I’ in that sensation?

Take a good look directly. Come back to the exercise you just did if today to isolate it…

[ostrich]

Is there evidence for this outside of thought?

hm... I don't think so, but it sometimes feels like I can't get unidentified with the "I". Like the thoughts keep dragging me back into identifying with the "I"

You know what the sensation of selfing is now. So, is there an ‘I’ in that sensation?

No :D it feels like I've been thinking that the 'I' was that sensation

[graceabounds]

I don't think so, but it sometimes feels like I can't get unidentified with the "I". Like the thoughts keep dragging me back into identifying with the "I"

Which one of these is each "I" in that sentence closest to? Please choose from the below three:


1. thought

2. visual image

3. bodily sensation