Truth seeker

[Lau]

Hi Becca,

Following on my previous note about the penny drop moment after reading your sentence - this is what I think I realised:
 
There's no owner to know there's no self. The knowing has no ownership. 

And there's no one to know there's no owner of experience.

The expectation of "knowing" in that way is just an expectation. I will never know in "that" way, whatever "that" means.

This felt significant at the time and for some hours I noticed I was spontaneously paying more attention to the owner of body actions and thoughts, like in the exercises you've suggested in the past few days. There were a number of times that it felt very clear there's no owner - and it felt even a bit overwhelming. But I also notice I keep claiming stuff back after the fact. I felt odd for a few hours but I seem to be feeling less odd now.

Maybe it might be helpful to revisit the thoughts and body exercises and share with you anything I might've missed. 

What we call ‘gatecrashing’ is only the beginning, so in that sense knowing doesn’t get a ‘you’ anywhere. :)

I do understand that, and that's why I don't get why I keep getting caught up by this. The narrative I tell myself is, without knowing it's easier to delude myself and waste energy and time in the wrong practice/enquiry.

Do you experience both simultaneously or sequentially?

Both, simultaneously when there's no thinking (maybe because there's no one to know, or maybe because intuitively something hasn't been seen fully yet or who knows) and sequentially when there's thinking. 

Are there distinct thoughts of doubt?

yes, there are distinct thoughts of doubt - sometimes triggered by comparisons with other people's experiences or well established maps, sometimes triggered by a thought of "what's the point in trying x practice/enquiry if I haven't seen through the self yet", sometimes triggered by noticing how I'm at the centre of my thoughts and then thinking "clearly, I still believe in a self", sometimes "If I had I'd know, like everyone else does".

Thank you!

[graceabounds]

Hello dear,

Yes, review anything that feels relevant to look into.

There is no such thing as wasted time… What makes something called time or energy seem wasted? Thet story that something else should be happening? That some imagined version of you should have arrived already… That awakening must look like X, feel like Y, match person Z.

Could anything else be happening?

But I also notice I keep claiming stuff back after the fact.

Who is noticing and who is claiming?
Is it ever more than a thought appearing afterward?

sometimes triggered by noticing how I'm at the centre of my thoughts

Oh?

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”. For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just
a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

There's no owner to know there's no self. The knowing has no ownership.

And there's no one to know there's no owner of experience.

Yes. Look again now. Is this still the case?

[Lau]

Hello!

Thanks for this, I'm finding the questions and exercises very helpful, and I'm also feeling huge gratitude for your time and energy 🙏

What makes something called time or energy seem wasted? Thet story that something else should be happening?

Yes. I know this to be true and I feel the relief when I connect with this truth. But then the craving energy keeps coming back to a more or lessen degree.

Could anything else be happening?

No

Who is noticing and who is claiming?
Is it ever more than a thought appearing afterward?

No one. It's a thought and a body sensation, like some sort of constriction/pressure and a feeling of familiarity.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes, without the "I"

What is here without labels?

the experience of the sense: hearing, feeling, thinking, seeing...

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

with the "i" label the experience felt more fabricated or like there was an added layer to the raw experience

Did you notice any differences in the body?

with the "i" it felt more like being ina box or more constricted, without the "i" it felt like without the box or more spacious or fluid.

Yes. Look again now. Is this still the case?

Yes, it's like above. I know it to be true but I forget, or thoughts/craving energy take charge

[graceabounds]

Is it possible for thoughts to take charge?

Is there a 'you' who is a victim to this craving energy?

[Lau]

Is it possible for thoughts to take charge?

No. Some thoughts preceed actions or feelings or other thoughts but they're not in charge.

Is there a 'you' who is a victim to this craving energy?

No, it's just body sensations and thoughts.

I've been enquiring into who decides thoughts and while having lots of quick thoughts looking at who's in control, and I keep having glimpses where I see no one. Sometimes my mind goes a bit blank. It's like with the body when I see it doing its thing with no one controlling. But it's all just glimpses when I look, it's not a constant perception. My head seems to be full of energy making pressure in the past couple of days. And I keep having this "witness" thought and feeling that I'm enquiring into.

[graceabounds]

Hi Laura,

Is going blank the absence of an answer or the answer?
:)

Head pressure is quite normal.

While watching is happening, can ‘watching’ be found as an action? Or is there just what is seen?

In other words:
If you remove the label “witness” and remove the label “watching”…
What remains?

-Becca

[Lau]

Is going blank the absence of an answer or the answer?

Ha, good point. This is making me realise I have an expectation that when I'm exploring in this way I'll have an aha moment that suddenly will shift a perception or will make me see things differently - an insight experience basically, like I've had before. So sometimes it feels like I can see there's no self, but I'm waiting for a penny drop moment.

While watching is happening, can ‘watching’ be found as an action? Or is there just what is seen?

Only the seen. If I remove the labels it's just sensorial experience

[graceabounds]

We often come back around to expectations at the ‘end’…
For some there is one big moment, for others a series of little ahas, like there are two ways to let the air out of a balloon. All at once makes a more dramatic story but the result is the same.

So sometimes it feels like I can see there's no self, but I'm waiting for a penny drop moment.

Notice here half is written in present tense, half is off in the future. Future is always a thought. :)

So, now, is there a self? Right now.

[Lau]

Notice here half is written in present tense, half is off in the future. Future is always a thought. :)

This made me laugh - I got a glimpse just by reading this, as in the rest is a story. I seem to see in glimpses sometimes: the body does something (not a me), thoughts aren't controlled by a me, etc and it feels weird because it's like things are operating by themselves. But generally speaking, and when you asked

So, now, is there a self? Right now.

the block feeling of me, with an image and a felt sense of familiarity came back - and I think I identify with that. So the honest answer is, I dont know.

With gratitude,
Laura

[graceabounds]

it feels weird because it's like things are operating by themselves

Things ARE operating by themselves. Always have been.

:)
What feels weird? Thoughts? Or is there a sensation associated with ‘feeling weird’?

with an image and a felt sense of familiarity came back - and I think I identify with that

What is ‘a felt sense of familiarity’?

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, color and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

So is the visual mental image of ‘me’ real?

[Lau]

What feels weird? Thoughts? Or is there a sensation associated with ‘feeling weird’?

a sensation which I'm describing with thoughts.

What is ‘a felt sense of familiarity’?

it's a recurrent thought/s (image/s) and body sensation that come together and I identify with. I see clearly it's just a thought and body sensation, but I think the belief is still there, even though i appreciate this is just another thought!

Can you see this?

Yes I honestly can.

So is the visual mental image of ‘me’ real?

I'll play with comparing the two for a day or so. It feels significant to look at the cup and then the "me" and see if there's any difference.

Thanks!

[Lau]

Hi Becca,

Some thoughts/questions -

After seeing through the illusion of self, does a sense of self still appear in experience? For example, do images, thoughts or bodily sensations associated with “me” still arise, but are recognised as not-self - or do they disappear altogether?

I keep feeling confused. I know I’ve already gone through a MAJOR shift in my life, but it doesn’t fully match the maps. Part of me feels like I’m still waiting for a shift that will never come, because it’s already happened. Another part of me feels like it hasn’t happened at all, because still self-identifies (or thinks she does) but struggles to believe that what’s ahead could involve an even bigger transformation. I try to follow my intuition in my practice, but it feels like it's all over the place.

Also in the past few days I've had fear come up randomly during meditation as I'm doing enquiry. This hadn't happened in a while. What might this mean?

Thanks,
Laura

[graceabounds]

Hello!

They still tend to arise, but less. And pass through quickly. If there is something that requires more looking to see through it is an opportunity to explore a deeper layer.

Was there a certain question you were looking into when the fear arose?

Go back into the fear if it is locatable. Tell me more about it. Describe it. Where is it located?

Also what maps are you using to orient?
Seeing through self is only the first shift of many if that helps. For some there is a rather calm period after, for others it moves almost immediately into what is next.

We will be complete here when it is clear that ‘There is no separate self at all, never had been, never will be’ is clear as day. Seeking falls away.

I try to follow my intuition in my practice

Is there a self in intuition? Is there an experience of someone or something leading and someone following?

Much love,
Becca

[Lau]

Was there a certain question you were looking into when the fear arose?

Go back into the fear if it is locatable. Tell me more about it. Describe it. Where is it located?

it's no longer there, but it emerged twice recently. Once I was feeling frustrated with the process and went to meditate with an attitude of “I’m going to see if there’s a self once and for all-what’s all this nonsense!” I was pushy in my inquiry and tone. When I looked into the sense of the watcher, I think the physical sensations, and with that attitude i had the fear response. I noticed increased heart palpitations and tension in the heart and throat area. The fear from a few days ago was different, it was very light and didn’t seem directly connected to any inquiry. It just started to emerge during meditation but I don't remember exactly how.

Also what maps are you using to orient?
Seeing through self is only the first shift of many if that helps. For some there is a rather calm period after, for others it moves almost immediately into what is next.

I suppose most maps/people say that seeing through the self (the first shift) is clear when it happens, and that's not my case, even though I'm clearly in some sort of process based on everything that's happened in the last year. So either it's possible to be confused, or you can have major shifts without having fully seen through the illusion of self. And most maps/people I know of don’t consider these possibilities.

Is there a self in intuition? Is there an experience of someone or something leading and someone following?

there's an experience of something leading yes,that's probably just a story. And there's definitely a story of me following! But no one really there.

Also an update on something that happened yesterday. I sat to meditate and while inquiring (can’t remember exactly into what) a thought came up about the self being created by the brain. I felt resistant because I didn’t want to go down a rational or "scientific" route of enquiry, but the thoughts kept going in that direction. Then something flipped from the chain of thoughts “so it’s all a creation then” and it was suddenly for a second very clear that it was. I tried to trace back to that moment of clarity but it felt like hitting a wall, my mind just went blank and couldn't find it. It was very anticlimactic, no bodily reaction, but I remember thinking “how obvious and absurd" but not sure if this was more clarity or an insight as it didn't really feel new.

Since then I still have thoughts and images of me and a sense of a watcher, but it feels more like an illusion (or maybe more clearly known as one) and when I try to inquire into the images or sensations my mind can’t seem to hold them like before. It just goes blank and feels like a huge effort, so I have to drop it. My head feels full of energy. Is there a self? I can't even think about it right now and there's a resistance to explore (maybe because i don't want to start with the doubts again...) I'll see how this evolves!

With love,
Laura

[graceabounds]

This is why I like the mapping of The Awakening Curriculum. That mapping does not tie the first shift or fetter to an immediate falling away of doubt. And for some doubt is a significant separate process. Other maps make removal of doubt a condition of seeing through self, and that has served to leave some frustrated and confused.

These shifts and insights are happening, that is what matters (if it can be said that anything matters lol).

And yes it IS all a creation. And the whole thing is stupid-simple. A creation for noone by noone. It is all made up stories. This is seeing. The only question is, right now, is this obviousness ever not there?

The mind going blank isn’t the absence of an answer, it IS the answer. Always has been :)

Is doubt ever anything other than a thought? Is it locatable now? It isn’t something to be afraid of or ashamed of… let’s look at it directly if it is here. There isn’t anything seen that can be unseen if that makes sense.