good place

[graceabounds]

the image I have of myself (what?) doesn't match who I am (??)

This makes no sense

Is the image a thought? And the matching is a thought… See the foundation here when we look for I?

And no, it makes no sense to thought…

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, color and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts.
Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

The relationship to thought can shape what happens, right?

Circle back to the hand exercise, or do this one… Prove it out…

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

It seems to me a key here would be to listen to my thought more, because if I don't really listen to them consciouly, I don't even register them really.

Who came up with this strategy? :)

Focus on the gap between thoughts, what doesn’t come and go based on any state…

[daisyrain]

Is the image a thought?

Yes

is the matching a thought?

A thought and a feeling of tension. Drag of habit seems a proper description.

See the foundation here when we look for I?

Not really, what foundation?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

Can't pour. Just almost pour. Hah, it's a bit laughable. It's funny, that would be ridiculous.
Can't drink, no real cup when looked. Yes, mental image, the content is "harmless". Not real.

However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Yeah. It's unexpectedly not even as obvious, as assumed. There is somewhat of a blind/sedated hope, that the cup is going to be real. Not easy to out this, it's this glue quality.

Becca, you're really pouting in a lot of effort here. I feel really touched by that kindness and forthcoming.

[graceabounds]

See the foundation here when we look for I?

Not really, what foundation?

The foundation of I existing only in thought. Like the cup, laughable, harmless, not real…

[daisyrain]

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

This may seem a bit lazy, but non of these questions seem to stick, because the hand just moved. It's like more words would just worsen the directness of the answer. Hand just moved. No decision, hand just moved, no controller.

Who came up with this strategy? :)

An answer seems to offer itself, that I can't understand.
In the stomach

[daisyrain]

The foundation of I existing only in thought. Like the cup, laughable, harmless, not real…

There is something funny here. Almost real flavoured

[graceabounds]

Hand just moved. No decision, hand just moved, no controller.

Great. Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

[daisyrain]

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?

The visual sensation and the body sensation sort of occupy the same space, there can't be a connection.

move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

thoughts suggesting it, Feeling familiar tension.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

The image isn't telling me anything, but there's a habit of labeling.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

no knowledge

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There's lightness, if anything.

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Neither in sight, sound nor touch can I find proof for thought about walking or body.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Addressing the thoughts about space and location, what remains are sensations happing in nowhere.
Than again, Just now, that was recognized as a thought, and I really couldn't say anything about what remained then.

[daisyrain]

This exercise felt massively draining. And I feel like I'm back at square one again. This message here is probably redundant, but it feels meaningful to write. I have no idea, what any of this is about, really. Sometimes it feels like recognition or liberation is just so awfully close.

[graceabounds]

Thanks for the update. Try it again tomorrow.

It is ok not to have any idea what this is about…

[daisyrain]

Thank you

[daisyrain]

observing thoughts for a while and sensations for a while.
It seams like believing thoughts is a movement of "marking something as done and over", no longer needing to be looked at.

in contrast sensations are fresh. Staying in sensation is refreshing the looking / sensing over and over and over again.
And there's a steady rhythm reminding to refresh. What is this rhythm, this novelty?

You're never "done" with sensation, it's not a task that can be completed.
It occurs, that anything being completed is a concept, a thought.

Updates about the actual task will come, this just occurred as well and man, what is this rhythm of novelty? It can't quite be a concept.

[daisyrain]

Something about this worked better, when entertaining the idea of listening for thoughts more subtle

look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Each time "this is me" is thought, it's a thought.
"Someone's looking at me", but even that is a thought.

While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Not really, there is the feeling of my hand, there is sight.

Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(note from earlier attempt:)
myriad of thoughts comes "this is me / this is my hand"

---
(current attempt)
glimpses of feeling being feeling, image being image. Slight mismatch between sensations.
The quality of "glueing" the sensations becomes slightly apparent.
The image does't care about "my hand"

[daisyrain]

In case nothings coming up; it's not like I haven't seen the next steps, it's just that nothing came up clear enough to progress so far. Took the day off to try as much as possible, somehow this is difficult.

[graceabounds]

Very good, keep going.

What/who is it that judges difficult?

Look back at this:

You're never "done" with sensation, it's not a task that can be completed.
It occurs, that anything being completed is a concept, a thought.

Is difficult related to completion?

[daisyrain]

Is difficult related to completion?

What came up was not a direct answer, but surprising in a way.
Difficult might only be found in relation to expectations. Well, expectations are related to completion. Being done/complete with something, before it even happened.
Now, about expectations.
It came up, that I had the expectation of waking up, and that itself could only ever be a thought I'm chasing. Not, that the chasing wasn't happening and useful, but I really don't know what I'm after here.
More importantly, all I can do in a moment, is look for truth, not a path to my idea of awakening. I did the latter, and it might have hardened the struggle of sort of "knowing the right answer ahead of time" while still having to look.

What/who is it that judges difficult?

this is the same, as the exercise.
Theres sight, theres body, there are assumptions.
I feel small progress here, but dont want to answer yet- That was interesting right now.