wake up Shane

[graceabounds]

Very very good.
Keep up this timer trick.

Continue to feel the energy in the feet, start to inquire if this energy wants to take/move the body anywhere.

Who says But? Where does that arise?

[graceabounds]

PS-

It’s almost like it is the stress of overwhelm is actually what is responsible for the overwhelm

Bingo.

What is/are the raw sensation/s of overwhelm?

Notice the very act of labeling, “I am overwhelmed,” creates the sense of “me” and the overwhelm at once.
If the label is dropped what is left?

[Seanus]

Hi Becca,
I’ve had a nice relaxing weekend.
After a very busy week last week.
The timer trick certainly came in handy over the last few days at work.
I don’t even need to use the timer now.
I can just stop what I’m doing and change my perspective.
The trick is in remembering to do it.

On Friday afternoon, it was past the time I had hoped to go home.
But there was a job I hadn’t got to yet, entering timesheets.
Kind of important, but could technically be done Monday.
I didn’t over think it, something decided it wanted them done.
It wasn’t really me, but I locked in and did the task.
I was super focused, and had it done in an hour. And still got out the door by 5.
There wasn’t a sense of accomplishment. Although I was glad to be going home at a reasonable hour.
There was a sense of detachment. But also strong presence as I observed myself effortlessly complete the task.

What is/are the raw sensation/s of overwhelm?

It feels like a tension in the muscles of my shoulders, a quickening of breath, and of the heartbeat.
It is a thought “I will never finish this”

Notice the very act of labelling, “I am overwhelmed,” creates the sense of “me” and the overwhelm at once.
If the label is dropped what is left?

When I drop the label, there remains only a task to be completed.
Maybe I don’t “want” to do the task.
But the task is there to be done.
The bad feeling is the resistance to the task.
I was surprised to see that the task itself had none of these negative feelings.

Yes, I can see, even in my language above, how “I” is created at at the same time, and I also added a judgement “I don’t want to…”
But, there is no wanting, or not wanting, there is just a task.

This is a subtle process.
It is very easy for it to creep in without me even noticing it,
So to become conscious of it is not easy.
But the noticing seems to happen more and more.

Who says But? Where does that arise?

“But” is interesting.
It is literally a part of my sentence structure, so quite easy to recognise as a pattern of thought.
I look back over this post, and the words I have used.
And “but” comes as an adjunct to many of my thoughts.
It’s a second thought.
A second guessing of myself.
It arises in my mind, in my head.
“But” is a thought about a thought, that undermines or even negates the original thought.
“But” is a direct expression of doubt.

Continue to feel the energy in the feet, start to inquire if this energy wants to take/move the body anywhere.

I can feel the energy in my feet any time I turn my attention to it.
And when I really pay attention to it, it rises up into my thighs.

Yes, perhaps it does want me to get up.
It is the energy that gets me up to the fridge looking for food.
It seems to happen most intensely at night, or is that just when I notice it?

I wonder if it is my body telling me I need to walk more.
But that feels like I am trying to create meaning,
And why would my body want me walking when I am already in bed, about to go to sleep?
Does it want me to make a plan to walk more? That doesn’t feel right.
And surely it doesn’t really want me to get up and go to the fridge.

It is a restless energy though.
And it does feel that it wants me to do something.

I’m not quite sure what yet.
I am still looking.

[graceabounds]

And “but” comes as an adjunct to many of my thoughts.
It’s a second thought.
A second guessing of myself.
It arises in my mind, in my head.
“But” is a thought about a thought, that undermines or even negates the original thought.
“But” is a direct expression of doubt.

Yes. Let’s look at belief… an attitude we have towards a thought, statement or proposition. It's not the thought itself, but something we think or feel about it. Schematically, it's like this:

1 (Thought "A") "I don’t want to do the task."

2 (Thought "B") "I feel strongly that A is true."
In this case, the belief about thought "A" is actually thought "B."
This is ironic! When we believe a thought, it's just another thought, with maybe a touch of hope or fear (feelings) that it is true. Of course, the "believing" thought could take a different form. Instead of the mere statement that "I think A is true," the believing thought could be one or more other thoughts:

3 (Thought "C") "'When someone agrees with 'A', I feel a warm sense of pleasure."

4 (Thought "D") "When someone disagrees with 'A', I get hurt, angry or confused."

5 (Thought "E") ""Because of 'C' and 'D', I realize that I must really believe that "A" is true."

All of these are separate thoughts. Even the feelings and reactions mentioned in "C" and "D" are nothing more than other mental objects, other "thoughts" in a wider sense.
So the beliefs about thoughts are merely thoughts. They aren't really different from the thoughts themselves. They all arise and pass. It turns out that the believing thought and the believed thought are never present at the same time. They are separate and independent from each
other. So belief is a claim never borne out by direct experience.

Doubt is a negative belief. A second thought, as you say, that is the negative of #2. All of this is happening in thought.

The bad feeling is the resistance to the task.
I was surprised to see that the task itself had none of these negative feelings.

Exactly, what is (the task) is not inherently negative or positive. It is the layers of belief that are the resistance as you are seeing.

Keep it up! Curious how the week unfolds.

[Seanus]

Hi Becca,
it has been an interesting week.

Yes. Let’s look at belief…

Excellent, this is interesting.

I went down a whole heap of rabbit holes of belief, thinking about this :-).
Starting to see the structure.
“But” has become an interesting trigger word for me now, to know that there is a thought structure happening.

I had an interesting experience this week.
I woke up Tuesday morning, after overeating the night before.
And was feeling a bit crappy.

i decided to do a fast.

Nothing else changed, I went to work, I did all the usual stuff around the house, including meals for the kids. But I just didn’t eat for 36 hours.

It almost didn’t feel like i was doing it. It just kind of happened.
it was quite easy. No effort at all actually.
it just seemed to made sense to let the body have a break.

I broke the fast at lunch time after 36+ hours, with a small vegetarian meal.

My body seemed to appreciate it.
And since then I feel my attitude to food has changed.
I still like my cheese and breads, and even sweet things.
And I can look after the body too.

Over the course of the week, I have been following the sensation in my feet,
Especially at night.
And when it gets intense, and it can get quite intense, I can recognise that this is when my desire for food kicks in.

If I sit with the feeling, i get a quickening of my breath.
It rises up in my thighs, and it can radiate around my body.
I feel it rise up to the palms of my hands.
And sometimes I feel it all across my skin.
It is quite a pleasurable tingling feeling.

Work was busy last week, but also manageable.
I’m not saying I didn’t have my moments, where stress took over.
But there were also some good moments where I was able to step back and allow the work to just happen.

The feeling of “falling” has eased.
Not sure about flying, but I do feel a bit like I am floating through life.

I had to laugh when I was watching one of Pernille’s videos.
And I realised that my nihilistic, “no point to anything” attitude was just another form of self identification.

I am slowly coming to and understanding and acceptance of no free will.

Shane

[graceabounds]

Beautiful.
It’s all just happening.
Notice how utterly effortless life becomes when the “I am doing it” story is absent.

And I realised that my nihilistic, “no point to anything” attitude was just another form of self identification

Haha yes! Bingo!

I am slowly coming to and understanding and acceptance of no free will.

Slowly? Something to accept off in the future? Is this a belief too?
:)

See the joke? Even “accepting no free will” can become an achievement for the story of “me.”
But was there ever a “you” making these realizations?

Look now.
Can you find, anywhere, any trace of a separate entity deciding, intending, controlling?
Look into this breath, this movement, this thought…
Does it belong to anyone?

Can you find any moment, any example, where “you” intervened?
Is there any responsibility, any control, anywhere?

[Seanus]

Hi Becca,

Notice how utterly effortless life becomes when the “I am doing it” story is absent.

Yes, I do feel like I am effortlessly floating through the world :-)

I haven’t written much.
Indeed, whenever I pick up my journal, I see how much of it (all of it) is just thoughts, writing about i as if there was one.

All those years spent writing thoughts,
All those years of writing about “wanting” to be a writer.
I dont “want” that anymore (never did).
I’m happy to have a bit of a break from writing for now.
With apologies if that means my replies can be far between.

When I started this process, I was desperately seeking.
There is nothing desperate in anything i am doing anymore.
i am appreciating the absence of the “i am doing it” story.

See the joke? Even “accepting no free will” can become an achievement for the story of “me.”

I do see it :-) yes.
I have been watching and enjoying with continual surprise, that there is no me here :-D

I still get caught up in the story all the time, dont get me wrong.
I keep getting caught up in habits
I still get stressed at work.
There is still a lot of i identification going on.
And thinking that I’m doing things

and yes, i have had a few good laughs about that too :-D, when i see it :-o

Look now.
Can you find, anywhere, any trace of a separate entity deciding, intending, controlling?

Now?
no!
And I’ve looked in many Nows ;-)

This game has been a big part of my enjoyment of floating through the last couple of weeks

often there are thoughts, that try to tell me that there is a “feeling” of decisions being made. But they come afterwards.

Now, there is nothing.

Does it belong to anyone?

No, they are memories of thoughts, and thoughts of memories.

Can you find any moment, any example, where “you” intervened?
Is there any responsibility, any control, anywhere?

Never have i been able to catch myself deciding, intending or controlling anything.

There seems to be an awareness, not necessarily separate, not necessarily me, but perhaps us?
everything. aware.


I may write again soon.
In the meantime,
Thankyou for your continued guidance (and patience)

Shane

[graceabounds]

Hi Shane,

I can sense the ease and flow here in the writing.

Curious what would come now if you took a fresh look at those checkpoint questions, from this space. Perhaps less agonizing? But also no need to, or urgency…

Write when/as it comes…

With so much gratitude,
Becca

[Seanus]

Hi Becca,

By “checkpoint questions“ do you mean the 8 questions you asked me back on the 9th of Oct?

I’m happy to revisit those, and on a quick look, yes, they were tough to answer while I was falling, but my answers will be quite different now.

I’ll relook at these and let you know how i go.

Shane

[graceabounds]

Yep, those are the ones :)

[Seanus]

Hi Becca,
It’s been an interesting week.
I’ve enjoyed exploring these questions again, and the words have flowed a little easier this time.

[quote] 1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
[/quote]

No.

Everything is connected.
Everything is one.
Nothing is separate.

Only now exists.
There was never any time other than now.
Here, and now, there is no i, or me, nor separate self.

[quote] 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
[/quote]

The illusion of separate self happens only now.

It is a perspective, that identifies with thoughts.

There are thoughts that come and go.
Some are memories of the past (which doesn’t exist)
Some give running commentary on things that may be happening now.
(Technically also memories, of the immediate past)
And some make plans for the future. (Which also doesn’t exist)

Thoughts are layered in complex structures, reinforcing beliefs (which are also thoughts)

Thoughts use language, that reinforce identification.
“I”, and “me”, and “you”.
Nouns name things as separate. the separation is arbitrary and not real.

Things happen.
And then thoughts assign meaning.
Based on associations with memories, or beliefs and values (all thoughts)
And create an illusion of I.

This perspective is easy to get caught up in, it is very alluring, in many ways. the passion, the drama, the stories.
Ultimately it is an illusion.

[quote] 3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
[/quote]

Before we started this dialogue, I was desperately seeking.
Exhausted, having tried so many things to fix whatever I thought was wrong with me.

But then I saw the nothing.
And the nothing connected everything.
There was a feeling of euphoria.

This euphoric feeling lasted only a few days,
and I began to fall into a period of self indulgence.
Still in the grip of the illusion. I felt like there was no point to anything.
My perspective had clearly shifted, but I became aware of many destructive habits, and I was falling into them.

And thanks to some good guidance I was able to see that it is not just falling, also floating, which feels quite pleasurable.

Nothing has changed.
I’m living the life of Shane.
Going to work, going through habits. Things happening. It’s an interesting story.
I feel amused, that it was this simple all along.

I realise there is nothing right or wrong with me.
There is just this situation.

I feel content.
I feel the connectedness of the universe.

[quote] 4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?
[/quote]

It was the nothing that helped me see it.
“What else is here?”
Nothing.
And I saw that it is everywhere at every level of experience.
And then to realise that it connects everything.
And everything exists within it.

I was amazed by the simplicity of it.
It has been here all along
The feeling was expansive, like there was no boundary between me and the entirety of existence.

Then I began to fall.
I was resisting the concept of no free will.
I was assisted to see that this too was another form of self identification.

There was a moment of shift initially.
Then a falling
Now a floating.
And I realise that the shift was just a beginning.
And the process continues to unfold.

[quote] 5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each of these separately.
[/quote]
[quote] decision [/quote]
Decisions are a thought process, that comes after an event. The thoughts assign meaning and a sense of the decision being made by “me”.
the thoughts were not present before the event took place, and therefore, the idea that they caused the event to happen is an illusion.

[quote] intention[/quote]
Intentions are plans for the future. (Which doesn’t exist)
They are wants and desires
Sometimes the “intended” thing happens, which tends to reinforce identification with self, as I thinks “I did it”
Often the intended thing doesn’t happen, which are either dismissed, or can lead to thoughts, that try to justify what went “wrong”.
This is self identification too.
They are all just thoughts. And not true.

[quote] free will[/quote]
I, as a separate entity, does not exist.
I is not in control of anything and cannot make anything happen.

I have tried many times to catch myself doing something intentionally.
I have never been able to.

Things happen
There is a commentary of thoughts, that attempt to assign meaning and intention. These are not will.

There does seem to be a flow to the universe.
Perhaps there is some kind of universal will.
But I can’t understand it, and even this may be an illusion of thought.

[quote] choice [/quote]
Sometimes it seems like there is more than one possibility for what comes next.
Thoughts analyse the situation.
Looking at pros and cons.
Ultimately it is not the thoughts that decide. I does not chose.
Things happen.
And then more thoughts that assign meaning, and create an illusion that a choice was made.

[quote] control [/quote]
I am not in control of anything.
The more I try to control things, the more I seem to suffer.

Sometimes I think that there may be something in control.
Maybe something/someone not separate.
Maybe there is one consciousness that is in control.
But I don’t know anything about that
And this kind of thinking feels very similar to all the other stories that create the illusion of self.

[quote] 6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
[/quote]
I don’t really know.
Things happen, or at least it seems like they happen.
The meanings that arise after the thing happens are just thoughts.

Are things caused? Maybe
But that would imply a past, that doesn’t exist.
All I know is here and now.
It looks like these thumbs are typing on the screen of this iPad.
And words appear. That seem to have meaning.
What made that happen?
An infinite chain of cause and effect.

If all I can know is here and now, then the chain of cause and effect is unknowable. And may be another illusion of thought.

Things just are the way they are.
That is all I know.

[quote] 7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
[/quote]

Nothing.

What have I ever done?
Nothing.

I like to think I am responsible for my kids.
Like maybe I played a part in their conception.
But that just leads back to an infinite chain of cause and effect.
Through my parents, and theirs.
I didn’t do any of that.

Maybe I am responsible for helping to shape their character?
Teaching them values, and good habits.
But they are their own people.
They have had their own character since the moment they were born.
I didn’t do anything there.

My kids surprised me with their existence the moment they were born.
And they are individuals, who continue to surprise me every day.

I feel responsible for them in the sense that I care for them.
But ultimately we are just here living and sometimes sharing moments.

What else might I have done?
I haven’t found anything yet.

[quote] 8) Anything to add?
[/quote]

Words, words, words.
The above is all just words.
But it all seemed to make sense at the time of writing.

I have tried to give honest, authentic and true answers
Although I can give these answers, I still spend much of my time identified with self.
I get caught up in the drama, in habits and in thinking.
I still have thoughts, and I still buy into them, often.

I do however get a feeling that a process has begun that I cannot stop.
And truth is gradually unfolding.

Shane

[graceabounds]

Well my friend,

Beautifully expressed, all these words words words about this exquisite THIS, simply what is. They were enough for a few other guides to take a look today and to identify no gaps in clear seeing, and my questions have been exhausted too. It appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed… but as you know there is no Gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey.

Soon you’ll receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest. Your username has already changed from green to blue (poof!) and this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

If you have any questions or hiccups at all in the continued unfolding you are welcome to drop a line here or you have my email.

It has been a pleasure to walk beside you here, Shane. Of course it is not necessarily the end of our conversation.

And if you ever feel pulled to guide and pay it forward some day, you would be most welcome…

With gratitude and abundant love,
Becca
🙏

[Seanus]

Dear Becca,

Thankyou again, and many times, for your excellent guidance.

It seems there truly is no gate :-)

My notifications were somehow disabled, so I’ve only just logged in today to see if I missed anything, only to see my name in blue :-)

I’m caught up on my messages now, and have also spent some time reading our history.
It was interesting to see how the marker for our conversation, that seeking would fall away, seemed to happen so seamlessly.
And how simple it was to see so much change, while everything remains the same.

I have received a separate pm, and excited about continuing this endless journey. And appreciate that we can still talk too :-)

Although words cant express it, I’m sure you must know, the deep gratitude I feel for your guidance.

With appreciation and love.
Shane