Jen seeking guidance

[graceabounds]

Glad you liked the exercise. It is rich to revisit. :)

Let’s explore this chest/back/head wavea bit more…

In the middle of it, can you find the “controller”, the one who could prevent mistakes or manage reactions? Or is there just panic, sadness, and stories about control?

If you do nothing (don’t fix, don’t manage, don’t even be mindful) just let the panic/sadness/urge to control fully expand, what happens?

Who is the “I” in the story of ‘I’ll be judged and alone’? Is there a separate entity, or just the thought/sensation loop, running automatically, as it always has?

[Jenness]

Glad you liked the exercise. It is rich to revisit. :)

Will revisit!

Let’s explore this chest/back/head wavea bit more…

In the middle of it, can you find the “controller”, the one who could prevent mistakes or manage reactions? Or is there just panic, sadness, and stories about control?

This was helpful, to just see more clearly it’s just stories about control and sensations of panic sadness tension.

If you do nothing (don’t fix, don’t manage, don’t even be mindful) just let the panic/sadness/urge to control fully expand, what happens?

It was hard to not squish it, not to tense around it, but if i put attention on something to give it something else to do then it flows out of the body a little. The tension is pretty persistent though, is that one to just let expand too? Or loosen it to let the fear expand?

Who is the “I” in the story of ‘I’ll be judged and alone’? Is there a separate entity, or just the thought/sensation loop, running automatically, as it always has?

Just the same loop. Just with a very strong opinion/thoughts of I really don’t like the stories and don’t like not being able to stop the clinging and resulting suffering. No running away means facing how much I hate things and less motivation in general in life and just a wanting to give up and not care what happens , because haven’t figured out how to care and not try to control

[graceabounds]

The tension is pretty persistent though, is that one to just let expand too? Or loosen it to let the fear expand?

Take off the label ‘tension’ or any other label as to what it means. Just observe it raw. What is it exactly? Where does it go? What happens?

No running away means facing how much I hate things and less motivation in general in life and just a wanting to give up and not care what happens , because haven’t figured out how to care and not try to control

Care can’t be manufactured by control.
Who is the hater?
Who is the one giving up?
Who is the one trying to care, trying not to control?

Is a self found, anywhere in this?
Or just the storm, weathering itself?

[Jenness]

Take off the label ‘tension’ or any other label as to what it means. Just observe it raw. What is it exactly? Where does it go? What happens?

With the label off, i’s just a texture that changes in density and moves around. Anxiety sensations come when there’s nothing to use to stabilize and everything just moves around or changes. When I am doing stuff with other people, I label everything back because of believing the thought that I need to know what things are and what to do with it to function socially, and then don’t realize the habit strengthened back. Feeling into “wrong about everything no matter what I label it” “don’t know anything” - “sadness and fear” labeled sensations.

Care can’t be manufactured by control.
Who is the hater?
Who is the one giving up?
Who is the one trying to care, trying not to control?

Is a self found, anywhere in this?
Or just the storm, weathering itself?

No self but a thought. And getting more of a feel of the thoughts that, things need to go a certain way for things to be “good” and “okay/safe” - seeing through those thoughts shifts the storm to more “pleasant” sensations , but at the end of the day just simply see no self/true labels, and no need to analyze what the storm is shifting to, right?

[graceabounds]

Anxiety sensations come when there’s nothing to use to stabilize and everything just moves around or changes.

Yes.
Look directly: has there ever been control or only the idea of control?
Letting go of the control itself is not the issue, it is the wanting to control that is the illusion.

need to go a certain way for things to be “good” and “okay/safe” - seeing through those thoughts shifts the storm to more “pleasant” sensations , but at the end of the day just simply see no self/true labels, and no need to analyze what the storm is shifting to, right

Yes exactly, because it just is as it is. The layer to explore is that sense of resistance to what is, which is a thought but also embodied.

So right now, without fixing, managing, or seeking “better”:
What’s left, in raw experience, without a self?
Is there anything missing?

[Jenness]

Yes.
Look directly: has there ever been control or only the idea of control?
Letting go of the control itself is not the issue, it is the wanting to control that is the illusion.

It’s the idea of control but it’s attached to almost everything I do, like it just feels like I’m the one driving the car, but in fact it was more like I have the perspective as if I’m in the car looking out of this body and I’m more in a virtual reality where I’m getting the appearance of the body moving and then I think I’m doing that

Yes exactly, because it just is as it is. The layer to explore is that sense of resistance to what is, which is a thought but also embodied.

It seems that the emotions also come from a resistance to what is, that that resistance leads to emotions, but by the time I’m aware, it’s already happened, so just work on the resistance to that, and then it may start impacting the first reaction at some point, but no need to really worry about it because just work at what I’m aware right now?

So right now, without fixing, managing, or seeking “better”:
What’s left, in raw experience, without a self?
Is there anything missing?

There’s the idea of a self and the idea that it wants better sensations or a better reality, but that seems irrelevant to everything being just as it is without an idea of good or bad or missing or not being applicable to it

[graceabounds]

It’s the idea of control but it’s attached to almost everything I do, like it just feels like I’m the one driving the car, but in fact it was more like I have the perspective as if I’m in the car looking out of this body and I’m more in a virtual reality where I’m getting the appearance of the body moving and then I think I’m doing that

Look directly. ‘Feels like’ and ‘seems’ are hedging. Find it out.

Is it:
I am driving the car.
I am inside this body witnessing the driving of car.
The body is doing the driving and later a thought comes and claims an I to be the one driving.

Look. Which is true?

It seems that the emotions also come from a resistance to what is, that that resistance leads to emotions, but by the time I’m aware, it’s already happened, so just work on the resistance to that

Practically speaking, the resistance can often be recalled with thoughts about what caused it, and then worked with. Pull it up, feel into it in the body, look for one who is reactive or a reason to react. Breathe. Give it space to be experienced. Look at the underlying belief: is it true?

[Jenness]

Is it:
I am driving the car.
I am inside this body witnessing the driving of car.
The body is doing the driving and later a thought comes and claims an I to be the one driving.

I am not driving the car, or I can’t find any evidence that I am driving the car. I have a thought that my brain must be driving the car, but also no evidence of that. There is no I driving the car. There’s no I that I can find at all, so how could there be an I controlling. I am not inside this body either, though the visual perspective I have is from the eyes of this body. Starting to get a glimpse that the thought claiming comes AFTER in sequence. It’s like a “who did that? Oh must be me”

Practically speaking, the resistance can often be recalled with thoughts about what caused it, and then worked with. Pull it up, feel into it in the body, look for one who is reactive or a reason to react. Breathe. Give it space to be experienced. Look at the underlying belief: is it true?

“If I don’t have control, my life will fall apart and I’l do dumb things socially and I’ll be shunned ” - not true, awareness of things will be clearer and learning will happen more quickly, and less pretending to control/poking will lead to more space and freedom from urges and the system will more easily be able to do what it wants. “If I’m disliked and shunned by a few people, I’ll be disliked and shunned by everyone, and then I’ll just be alone with no resources and have to hide in shame”- not true, shunned by some doesn’t mean shunned by all, and just because I’m disliked and shunned, does not mean I have to hide in shame. I care enough about my survival, I’m going to get out there and work hard for resources anyway even if disliked and shunned. i can tolerate shame and get comfy with it.”
Or don’t use any alternative thoughts to help?

[graceabounds]

Starting to get a glimpse that the thought claiming comes AFTER in sequence. It’s like a “who did that? Oh must be me”

Very good Jen.
Now, is that ‘me’ pointed to in that thought real in any way? Is any thought ever evidence of a self?


And to your question: The counter-stories support in seeing through the beliefs, and at the same time is there still a perspective that all of it is fiction? Little thought bubbles?

Look:
where is shame in the body? how is it known?
Is there someone here who can be shunned?
In direct experience, are there others’ judgements?

[Jenness]

Very good Jen.
Now, is that ‘me’ pointed to in that thought real in any way? Is any thought ever evidence of a self?

No, there isn’t. But why does it feel so much like I have to be a certain way when socializing etc..an aversion of the fear and shame underneath I think, and a continued belief that there’s something on the line that cannot be allowed to happen. Strong learning that was believed to be linked to survival at some point, maybe?

And to your question: The counter-stories support in seeing through the beliefs, and at the same time is there still a perspective that all of it is fiction? Little thought bubbles?

Yes! Though not until I look oftentimes and still can be sticky and trigger strong fear

Look:
where is shame in the body? how is it known?
Is there someone here who can be shunned?
In direct experience, are there others’ judgements?

It’s a sensation with a label of “shame”. I don’t know how it got labeled as shame. When I learned what emotions sensations were, it felt like I felt into it and then I knew what it was, but it hadn’t really been taught to me directly, so probably some matching of knowledge of shame and then matching it to the thoughts and sensations there. No one that can be shunned when I look, and then fear because then it’s afraid I won’t do the things necessary to keep that from happening. Catastrophizing that it’ll mean something irreversibly awful if I can’t “control” whether people like me, because there’s a belief they only liked me because I tried to have that happen - helpful to see that one! No experience of people’s judgments, but thoughts about what needs to be done so they don’t feel what I’m afraid of them feeling. Unfortunately, some of it seems to track in terms of what I do and how people respond, so brain is convinced I’m right. Feels like a good direction is to get comfortable with even if shunned, would be okay

From a previous post, you had said:
“No—do not drop those thoughts. You drop INTO them. :)”
I’m maybe starting to understand. Is it a you drop into all the appearances (thoughts, feelings etc.) and energy and you’re kind of just swimming in them except the sense of self is part of the swimming things ?

[graceabounds]

Hi Jen,

No, there isn’t. But why does it feel so much like I have to be a certain way when socializing etc..an aversion of the fear and shame underneath I think, and a continued belief that there’s something on the line that cannot be allowed to happen. Strong learning that was believed to be linked to survival at some point, maybe?

You see it--> no thought, no matter how convincing, is ever proof of a self.

And yes, it’s just conditioning, old patterns, once needed to navigate the social world, now running on autopilot. There is a belief underneath them which will come up to be seen when the time is right, but for now just keep noticing what is happening in the body and be with that fully. And continue to look and notice. No “you” to be shunned. No “others’ judgment” except as imagination.

Unfortunately, some of it seems to track in terms of what I do and how people respond, so brain is convinced I’m right.

How much of it tracks vs doesn't track? 50/50? 20/80? Take a look at the volume of catastraphizing that does not happen...

And regarding dropping into thoughts, yes, that’s it. There’s no outside of the movie, no vantage point apart from what’s arising. “Dropping into” means you let all of it, the thoughts, shame, fear, be what’s here, unfiltered, unowned, not trying to get rid of any of it. You’re not “swimming in it” as a separate self, the sense of self is just another ripple in the water, not a swimmer.

Can you find, anywhere, a someone who could be shunned, praised, safe, unsafe?
Or only thoughts, sensations, and the idea of “me” floating through them?

And, if there is indeed no one here: are there others?

:)
Much love,
Becca

[Jenness]

You see it--> no thought, no matter how convincing, is ever proof of a self.

And yes, it’s just conditioning, old patterns, once needed to navigate the social world, now running on autopilot. There is a belief underneath them which will come up to be seen when the time is right, but for now just keep noticing what is happening in the body and be with that fully. And continue to look and notice. No “you” to be shunned. No “others’ judgment” except as imagination.

Helpful! I often just feel and forget to check who’s the one feeling, or thinking it’ll be impacted etc. The feeling that comes up with there was no one here that these thoughts refer to feels similar right now to the aloneness/worthless/abandoned/helplessness feeling-thought complex underlying my social fears. Feels nice and simple that they’re converging

How much of it tracks vs doesn't track? 50/50? 20/80? Take a look at the volume of catastraphizing that does not happen...

I’ll go collect more data! But part of the difficulty is that I feel like as adults, people now won’t show me (because I don’t show them, so that’s my projection) so they may be thinking and feeling it anyway, and I have trouble tolerating the idea that people dislike me. And realizing that at the same time also afraid that if I just open my heart and love them, that they’ll want to come closer than I’m comfortable because I feel I have to be on and open with people and give them the connection I perceive them as wanting, in order to not lose connection, so it’s a lot of work to just do it all the time if people want to spend a ton of time together. But I also feel like I’ll be rejected for putting up boundaries. What a tangled up ball of social fears.. just fear of losing connection at the core I think

And regarding dropping into thoughts, yes, that’s it. There’s no outside of the movie, no vantage point apart from what’s arising. “Dropping into” means you let all of it, the thoughts, shame, fear, be what’s here, unfiltered, unowned, not trying to get rid of any of it. You’re not “swimming in it” as a separate self, the sense of self is just another ripple in the water, not a swimmer.

Cool! The unowned is harder when it’s more “this is a problem!”-Labeled emotions. Continued inquiries help

Can you find, anywhere, a someone who could be shunned, praised, safe, unsafe?

A little scary every time I see it. Helpful to see also no one who can be praised, loved, accepted, safe (at least by people) because part of the fear is losing that possibility I think

Or only thoughts, sensations, and the idea of “me” floating through them?

Also helpful every time I re-see it. Like “oh”

And, if there is indeed no one here: are there others?

Are they just sights, sounds, and my ideas of them? Or are they another bundles of thoughts, emotions, bundled into a system that operates as if it’s a self?

Much love back :)
Jen

[graceabounds]

Can you know, predict or control what will happen?

and I have trouble tolerating the idea that people dislike me

Who suffers? What is the effect of being disliked on the body? In thoughts?

so it’s a lot of work to just do it all the time if people want to spend a ton of time together. But I also feel like I’ll be rejected for putting up boundaries

If you are bypassing clear signals from the body to avoid interacting, yes that is a lot of work. On a conventional level, boundaries are important and not honoring them in favor of love and light with all beings is bypassing.

So, to untangle, continue to unplug the thought stream and tune in:
What is the body saying? Yes or no?

Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands.
Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin.
Hold it there, sensing it.
Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as direct experience of thoughts and mental images, their
appearance cannot be denied. However their ‘contents’, what they are about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.

Can you see this?

[Jenness]

Can you know, predict or control what will happen?

No but the thought try to predict based on past outcomes, except they’re based on really old childhood data, whereas in the past few years, no one’s really done much rejecting, but scary to update, and the thoughts prefer to go with worst case scenario that it knows can happen because who knows if it’s safe to trust recent data. The thoughts just seem like play it super safe prediction models to minimize painful experience for the system.

Who suffers? What is the effect of being disliked on the body? In thoughts?

The thought that I’m a self then has a secondary piggybacked thought that this self-concept thought “self” is suffering - that seems funny that a thought piggybacks on a thought - that’s how these things can work? On the body, sympathetic activation/palpitations/fear and thought that something really bad will happen but it doesn’t know exactly what.. looking and it’s afraid that that person or people’s judgment is accurate and I’ll internalize it and then my self-image will crumble and i’ll feel crippling shame and hide, and also that if it’s accurate it’ll be predictive of possibility of no one liking me in the future. And then the feared consequence there is..death?? It’s not a clear thought but it kind of feels like how I feel when I’m afraid of death

If you are bypassing clear signals from the body to avoid interacting, yes that is a lot of work. On a conventional level, boundaries are important and not honoring them in favor of love and light with all beings is bypassing.

Okay, cool!

So, to untangle, continue to unplug the thought stream and tune in:
What is the body saying? Yes or no?

To particular people? It often says no or both yes and no, with the second no there being the fear of rejection. Helpful to see the two categories

Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands.
Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin.
Hold it there, sensing it.
Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as direct experience of thoughts and mental images, their
appearance cannot be denied. However their ‘contents’, what they are about (like the watermelon) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.

Can you see this?

Yes! The melon wasn’t real, the melon was created by the mind, the mind can create thoughts that mimic reality, but are not reality.

[graceabounds]

No but the thought try to predict based on past outcomes, except they’re based on really old childhood data, whereas in the past few years, no one’s really done much rejecting

So, an old story. And a loop. Very important to notice it isn’t happening now.

This entire loop is happening off in the future, it is a watermelon. What is here in the gap between thoughts?

The thought that I’m a self then has a secondary piggybacked thought that this self-concept thought “self” is suffering - that seems funny that a thought piggybacks on a thought - that’s how these things can work? On the body, sympathetic activation/palpitations/fear and thought that something really bad will happen

Yes this is exactly how selfing works. It is always just one thought tagging another, then a wave of sensation (palpitations, tension, activation) arising after or with the thoughts.
No controller. No one at the center.

When that second thought isn’t present is there suffering? When the first thought is seen through can there be anyone to suffer?
Look for the sufferer now: Is anyone found, or just sensation + thoughts claiming ownership?

Let the sympathetic activation be as big as it wants. don’t fix, don’t fight, don’t analyze. Is there anything personal in it, or just sensations, unowned, moving through?