Jen seeking guidance

[graceabounds]

Yes, love. And the movie is as it is…
Let the sadness and fear have their moment if that is what arises now.

Get outside and take a walk, see how everything: animals, birds, trees, grass, just moves, unfolds, is… no you needed.

From here, is there tomorrow?

[Jenness]

Hi Becca!

The being a self and then seeing it wasn’t there when I look comes and goes. There was some loosening of the underlying belief around unlovability in some trauma work folks helped me do yesterday, and now it feels like my brain is rewiring motivation for seeking and doing things etc. In a way, it feels like the self feels there’s less need for it, but the laziness and avoidance of discomfort is still catching it, and there’s this but i just want myself to be comfortable and not make myself do things beliefs catching me. Like the motivations used to be kind of an aggressive approach to the self like “just face it, get through it” and I’m trying to reorient to a new way of motivation for seeing through things, when before it was basically 100% driven by wanting to fix the self. Is it a soft, just follow the longing for more, a wanting , out of love, for the self to experience something even better, which is some kind of unconditional intimacy including with discomfort, kind of thing?
Finding general difficulty with motivation, like even getting out of bed vs just curled up in bed because it’s comfortable. And a little worried what this means for my life, like I can’t just do whatever I want and not to what I don’t want, but what’s going to motivate me to do what I don’t want?

From here, is there tomorrow?

There’s still the belief there’s a tomorrow, but can look at it and see it’s a concept, and let the fear underneath come out

[graceabounds]

Finding general difficulty with motivation, like even getting out of bed vs just curled up in bed because it’s comfortable. And a little worried what this means for my life, like I can’t just do whatever I want and not to what I don’t want, but what’s going to motivate me to do what I don’t want?

Let go of ‘my life’ and just be here.
The what is it all going to mean and what do I want is the self reifying.

There will be some adjustment to letting go of control. But there was never control, it was all an illusion. :) So let the white knuckles relax and sit in bed and see what happens.

Does life stop if you let go of control?

What is here, now, without “tomorrow” or “future” as an anchor?

[Jenness]

Thanks! the self-grasping pops right back and catches me

Does life stop if you let go of control?

What is here, now, without “tomorrow” or “future” as an anchor?

FEAR and then if I keep sinking, then ease and connection

[Jenness]

Ah but then I’m realizing I’m then trying to use that okay just sink as a thing to do. The controller isn’t seen through.. will keep looking at it

[graceabounds]

Hi Jen,

the self-grasping pops right back and catches me

What actually happens here? Break it down? Who is caught? How do you know there is a you to catch and who is doing the catching? What is happening in the body?

The controller isn’t seen through.. will keep looking at it

Don’t even “keep looking at it” as a technique.

Just let everything be present, even the controller, even the urge to escape the controller, even the confusion, even the thought “I should be able to see through this by now.”

Come back to this exercise:
Please put two objects in front of you, then pick up one or the other, while paying attention to the whole process of choosing. Was there a chooser in choosing?


Nothing needs to be fixed, managed, or even seen through, unless that’s just what’s happening.

Is there a self anywhere or just a thought about self?

Much love!

[Jenness]

What actually happens here? Break it down? Who is caught? How do you know there is a you to catch and who is doing the catching? What is happening in the body?

It’s this believing I’m the self again, lost in it. In the body, it’s kind of a lack of awareness, almost a zoned out ness, a not feeling as much. Like don’t want to feel everything, so I’ll just pretend to be an self instead. that’s in just lounging around on my own. If i’m in social situations though, I think it’s more of a tensing, like temporarily belief the thought that there’s something i have to do or be. No self that’s caught but the patterns continue to happen, and that causes sadness which sets off patterns of looking for something fix it by “not getting caught” . There’s still a belief that if “I” were doing it right, there wouldn’t be so much pain , and that leads to the tension or focusing awareness on something to ignore feelings , or the tension also leads to awareness focusing on it an other parts haze over. The emotional “pain” stays, yea? Just comfort with it grows, and so suffering decreases as it becomes less and less uncomfortable? I understand probably just need to just let discomfort be just another thing here, but the self is like there’s a way for things to get less uncomfortable as I become less resistant to them so then shouldn’t I move in that direction.

Don’t even “keep looking at it” as a technique.

Just let everything be present, even the controller, even the urge to escape the controller, even the confusion, even the thought “I should be able to see through this by now.”

Letting it be brings up underlying sadness and fear that is driving the searching, especially now that it knows everything can feel good including the sadness and fear and it wants to get back there, and knows that if it’s not there, it’s because it’s resisting something, so it should stop resisting…It’s a hard loop for the mind to let go of. I’m confused about the letting go of resistance vs seeing clearly, like the letting go of resistance is still a trying to do but it feels in the right direction

Come back to this exercise:
Please put two objects in front of you, then pick up one or the other, while paying attention to the whole process of choosing. Was there a chooser in choosing?


Nothing needs to be fixed, managed, or even seen through, unless that’s just what’s happening.

Is there a self anywhere or just a thought about self?

There’s just a thought that I’m labeling as self-thought, like I’m gonna decide to do this. That one’s super tricky for me. It just feels like it is me when I’m going through the day cuz there’s something uncomfortable about it being able to feel like it’s me but it’s not me, like something uncanny about the mind’s ability to make up a world and for me to be tricked again and again. It’s like really? Am i that gullible again and again? And the answer seems to be yes..

Much love back!

[graceabounds]

One more time :)
Put two objects in front of you and choose one.
Watch the process.
- Sensations in the body.
- Thoughts: “Which one? Why? What should I pick?”
- movement happens, a hand moves.
- Afterward, a thought claims, “I chose.”

Can you find a chooser in the raw experience?
Or do you just find movement, sensation, urge, story—no controller?

Seeing through is not a final event. The “self” will reappear again and again. It is never anything but a thought, sensation, pattern… empty, unowned, unchosen.

The loop “let go of resistance” becomes just another form of selfing. Letting resistance be here is the clearest seeing. Let even the urge to “get somewhere better” be just the next sensation.

So, look now, raw and direct, don’t rely on any past seeing or experiencing:
Is there a self, or only the thought/feeling “I am the self”?
Can you find anyone who is being tricked, or only the movie playing itself out: identification, disidentification, confusion, relief, all just scenes on the screen?

If the thought can trick “you,” is there any “you” being tricked, or just experience tricking itself, endlessly, to no one?

Let the “uncanny” feeling be here.
Let the discomfort and all attempts to escape be here.
Nothing is excluded. No one is responsible. No one is failing.

:)

[Jenness]

One more time :)
Put two objects in front of you and choose one.
Watch the process.
- Sensations in the body.
- Thoughts: “Which one? Why? What should I pick?”
- movement happens, a hand moves.
- Afterward, a thought claims, “I chose.”

Can you find a chooser in the raw experience?
Or do you just find movement, sensation, urge, story—no controller?

No chooser or controller! So, who sees through the self, how fast the habits of the mind shift, anything that anyone does, whether they have seen through the self or not, all of it is almost like pre-written story playing out? Just want to make sure i’m not missing an important point or jumping to assumptions

Seeing through is not a final event. The “self” will reappear again and again. It is never anything but a thought, sensation, pattern… empty, unowned, unchosen.

The loop “let go of resistance” becomes just another form of selfing. Letting resistance be here is the clearest seeing. Let even the urge to “get somewhere better” be just the next sensation.

Super helpful!! Have been wondering about this in the context of the 4 noble truths where I had read that as that clinging was the issue

So, look now, raw and direct, don’t rely on any past seeing or experiencing:
Is there a self, or only the thought/feeling “I am the self”?
Can you find anyone who is being tricked, or only the movie playing itself out: identification, disidentification, confusion, relief, all just scenes on the screen?

Also really helpful! Just the identification with the idea that “I am the self”

If the thought can trick “you,” is there any “you” being tricked, or just experience tricking itself, endlessly, to no one?

This one confuses the mind.. How is it able to trick me without a person to be tricked.. it wants to come back to this one. It’s also confused how like 99% of the world could be wrong about all of this.. worried they know something I can’t see

Thanks, Becca! :) <3

[graceabounds]

Hi!

So, who sees through the self, how fast the habits of the mind shift, anything that anyone does, whether they have seen through the self or not, all of it is almost like pre-written story playing out? Just want to make sure i’m not missing an important point or jumping to assumptions

Nope, not pre-written, that would be a thought right?
Of someone outside doing the writing? Of a plan?
Can it be magical and unknowable, this raw unfolding?

This one confuses the mind.. How is it able to trick me without a person to be tricked.. it wants to come back to this one. It’s also confused how like 99% of the world could be wrong about all of this.. worried they know something I can’t see

It is meant to confuse the mind, so as to look from a distance without relying on thought… to be a non-compute. So, go back to what is actual experience.

And if this were easy, everyone would do it. And many have but it isn’t something one would know walking around, because everything keeps operating. Part of this doing is to make it more accessible, but there is still no one doing it, just an impulse and an action arising.

Just notice the thought about there being something you cannot see. Who is saying that, or judging? If a thought is self-referential is it true? Is a worry ever true in the moment of worry?

[Jenness]

Nope, not pre-written, that would be a thought right?
Of someone outside doing the writing? Of a plan?
Can it be magical and unknowable, this raw unfolding?

Yes! Just in terms of the experience of it though, is it similar to as if it’s pre-written? Literally no ability to control anything, karma/conditioning and causes and conditions just playing itself out as if it’s the natural order of things. I think the double checking here is the self wanting to make sure it didn’t miss something it’s supposed to be able to control to make life better, so it can say okay nothing I can do here anyway, let’s just “give up.” It doesn’t want to prematurely give up instead of continuing searching for a solution, if it might be out there. It’s wired to obsessively turn over every rock.

It is meant to confuse the mind, so as to look from a distance without relying on thought… to be a non-compute. So, go back to what is actual experience.

The experience is just a “tricked” appearance interspersed with a bit less tricked experiences

And if this were easy, everyone would do it. And many have but it isn’t something one would know walking around, because everything keeps operating. Part of this doing is to make it more accessible, but there is still no one doing it, just an impulse and an action arising.

Okay cool! And love that folks like you are making this accessible to us.
Was just the doubter being like everyone must know better than me and if it’s something I’m able to do, everyone must have been able to do it already.
Is why we seek and why we help, out of a natural movement of compassion for self and others that is inherent to us?

Just notice the thought about there being something you cannot see. Who is saying that, or judging? If a thought is self-referential is it true? Is a worry ever true in the moment of worry?

It’s not referring to anyone and no one is saying it, it’s a thought with thoughts of self attached.

Thanks!!

[graceabounds]

Hi Jen,

Yes! Just in terms of the experience of it though, is it similar to as if it’s pre-written? Literally no ability to control anything, karma/conditioning and causes and conditions just playing itself out as if it’s the natural order of things. I think the double checking here is the self wanting to make sure it didn’t miss something it’s supposed to be able to control to make life better, so it can say okay nothing I can do here anyway, let’s just “give up.” It doesn’t want to prematurely give up instead of continuing searching for a solution, if it might be out there. It’s wired to obsessively turn over every rock.

This cannot be knowledge learned from someone or somewhere. That just keeps it theoretical. It can only be seen, and surrendered into. Which is how it has always been anyway! The double checking, the turning over every rock is all thought keeping itself relevant. The fear of “giving up too soon” is part of the self-protection loop.

Not that there is anything wrong with this, but continue to look:
Is there a controller, anywhere in direct experience?

Who is ‘the doubter’?

Right now, is there a self, anywhere, doing any of the doing? Thinking any of the thoughts? Experiencing any of the experiences?

[Jenness]

This cannot be knowledge learned from someone or somewhere. That just keeps it theoretical. It can only be seen, and surrendered into. Which is how it has always been anyway! The double checking, the turning over every rock is all thought keeping itself relevant. The fear of “giving up too soon” is part of the self-protection loop.

Bummer, the self thinks okay if i can just check that what I’m seeing is right, then I’ll trust it and let go. But that makes sense, it can only been seen enough to where it’s ready. I think what it’s seen is that surrendering is less suffering, but also less inhibited at this stage, which means more conditioning comes out and is acted on in a way because there’s still getting hooked. But even for the self, it’s starting to feel like that kind of masking isn’t worth the suffering anymore and that there’s probably another way that’s less suffering that can help me not act out of getting hooked. It’s a conflation of surrendering with a bit of don’t care-ness and nihilism

Is there a controller, anywhere in direct experience?

no, can’t find it when i look, though “being tricked” keeps happening

Who is ‘the doubter’?

The “you might screw things up if you’re wrong’ “I don’t trust that controlling things wasn’t the thing keeping my life together” fear mechanism.. It’s a “better safe than sorry” internal wiring. “Can’t go wrong just first trusting the fear and then checking until I’m sure there’s nothing that can harm me” “rather suffer and be safe than be free and possibly unsafe”. “How could I possibly make sure things go right if I don’t know anything and am wrong about everything and don’t know what I’m supposed to do” “I believe it so it must have some merit” What sticky conditioning..Helpful to see it and get to know it. More comfortable letting it burn.

Right now, is there a self, anywhere, doing any of the doing? Thinking any of the thoughts? Experiencing any of the experiences?

No self, doing, thinking or experiencing, but experience is experiencing?

[graceabounds]

Hi!

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self
side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side.

If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts (I am frightened)… get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

It’s a conflation of surrendering with a bit of don’t care-ness and nihilism

Surrender is not “don’t care.” It’s total willingness to not know, be ‘unsafe’, have no guarantees, to not be able to make sure things go “right” because they never could!

You can’t make the selfing mechanism not arise.
But you can see, every time, with clarity that no controller is ever present, only the reflex of fear, doubt, checking, the hope for certainty.

The internal wiring you are noticing is hypervigilant, likely very old. Where is it in the body?

[Jenness]

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self
side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side.

If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts (I am frightened)… get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

This was awesome! All the thoughts were about self and self-referential, and then self-referential thoughts of wanting to not think about self, and then the mind actually got more curious about non-self things and people, and thinking about those was really enjoyable, much more enjoyable than thinking about the self. The self thoughts felt like protection and survival and problem solving, and the others thoughts felt like curiosity and love

Surrender is not “don’t care.” It’s total willingness to not know, be ‘unsafe’, have no guarantees, to not be able to make sure things go “right” because they never could!

You can’t make the selfing mechanism not arise.
But you can see, every time, with clarity that no controller is ever present, only the reflex of fear, doubt, checking, the hope for certainty.

The internal wiring you are noticing is hypervigilant, likely very old. Where is it in the body?

It’s initially in the chest and then moves outwards , out the upper back , and head. It’s a sadness and a panic. “If I don’t control myself to be a certain way, I’ll do all these socially awkward things and then people will judge me and reject me, and I’ll feel shame and aloneness” But the self is also starting to learn mindfulness works better for this anyway, even if it’s trying to control, and that then comes with less sadness and panic, but panic again if i let go of that too