Hi

[Formerlysky]

Hello all,

I have put most of my experiences and processes in a blog describing my journey
and this address
Here

http://awakeninginthemarketplace.blogspot.com/


Here is an extract though

So why am I here.
I woke up while in my early 20’s for a while and again for a month or so in 2008. It seems that I am starting to wake up again so now would be the best time to start writing about this stuff... I thought that others who might be thinking about going down this path could use a handbook or some useful pointers. I know I could have the first time around. The point is when I’m awake I may not be able to see where I am now anymore or have the inclination to write any of this down. Or if I can it may be irrelevant. So now as always it the only time to begin.
Most books and texts I have read and other sources I have learned material on the awakening process have had descriptions and explanations that were obtuse at best. At worst they described awakening as an unattainable goal, in this lifetime. In addition to this they tend to describe waking up as a process that requires severing of ties from the normal world (retreating to a cave). The process described here is for the person who wants to wake up in the ‘normal’ world. To still be a part of the world and to wake up at the same time. To be able to have a job, family ect and function in the world and still wake up.
If that sounds like you, then this is for you.
Despite the fact that this may annoy any number of Buddhists and ‘spiritual seekers’ I was never interested in waking up. Enlightenment was something I’d get to later. I was interested in normal things. Money, sex, power ... that kind of stuff. The thing that got me into it eventually was my curiosity...... I was sucker punched.

[Matt]

Hello, thanks for joining the forum.
Do you exist as a separate entity, or in any other sense?

[Pratityasamutpada]

Hi Akash, enjoyed your blog. Just to be clear, the assumption here is that you posted here to get confirmed and help out, is that right?

[Formerlysky]

Hi Matt, Pratityasamutpada

‘Do you exist as a separate entity, or in any other sense?’

you seem to asking if I experience the illusion of self as real and awareness as being separated from itself. Awareness is aware of itself here most of the time – the illusion of self is here from time to time.

Just to be clear, the assumption here is that you posted here to get confirmed and help out, is that right.

Happy to help out where I can but don’t feel a particular need to be confirmed one way or another. From my point of view I’m not awake. I experience abiding non dual awareness a lot of the time but not all the time. Awake is either all the time or it’s not and my experience is that it’s a continuum that progresses as I go deeper into awareness. If you really need to see where I am at for some reason then I give you (Pratityasamutpada) permission to recognize the lack of separation of space and that should give you all the info you need.
I have some concerns about the process and how fast people are being considered ‘awake ‘ or ‘enlightened’ and I have to ask how is it you (everybody who claims to be awake) know you are awake. The concern is that telling someone they are awake when they are not doesn’t help them.
I have had experience myself with rapid awakening experiences (when I first woke up after reading Krishnamurti’s beyond violence) so I know it is possible (and also know the downsides) but I have also met a lot of people who thought they were awake but were clearly not.
So is it the awake, waking the asleep or the blind leading the blind.
David

[Pratityasamutpada]

Hi David,

Your initial post here of course begs the question what the point of posting it was, if not to get liberated (which you already are, but read on below), and/or to join the LU team (which includes a simple confirmation process to make sure we're all on the same page).

Liberation tends to be the word used by LU for what it is that we point to. But I see and agree with your point about awakening. It's not full awakening if it's not abiding. Or at least, I see that as a very sensible definition. But there is also a process of awakening, as you know, because you're in it. So the point here is not to get hung up on words.

LU is about directly pointing to the absence of self, which is an extremely potent trigger for this process of awakening. But yes, for most people it's only the beginning, or perhaps the middle, but certainly not the end. And everyone here is well aware of this. Or if they're not, they'll find out right quick ;).

The upside of this approach is not only that it turns out to work extremely effectively, but also that undermining this core belief of self first, is what eventually allows everything else to fall away quite naturally with time and sincerity, and without anywhere near as much of the horrors of going through all that stuff while still believing in a self.

So, if you see the potential in this approach (as well as the potential pitfalls), and you're interested in contributing, then I for one would be more than happy to invite you to get confirmed and join the team, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be the only one.

Sincerely,
Mark

[Formerlysky]

Hi Mark,


“Your initial post here of course begs the question what the point of posting it was, if not to get liberated (which you already are, but read on below), and/or to join the LU team (which includes a simple confirmation process to make sure we're all on the same page).”

I’ve been feeling a need to help out for a while now and still working out what that will look like . When I read “It is also a place where those who are already free can hone their skills at transmitting enlightenment and simply connect with others.” at the start of the webpage I thought I’d say hi and find out who you are and I’m always up for a better way of doing things

I agree with not getting hung up on words as words are at best an abstraction however I also think it’s important for me to understand the definitions being used in the forum as I would like to have our abstractions as close as possible. Hence the question ‘how do you know your awake?’

“without anywhere near as much of the horrors of going through all that stuff while still believing in a self”

This seems like a major upside.

So, if you see the potential in this approach

I do – but still feel it’s a valid question - How do you define liberation, waking up and enlightenment. How many people on this forum are liberated and/or awake and/or enlightened?? Best way to check out a process is by it’s success record
, and you're interested in contributing,

I am

then I for one would be more than happy to invite you to get confirmed and join the team, and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be the only one.

Great – sign me up for a serve of awakening and a double side of enlightenment

[Pratityasamutpada]

Very cool, thank you.

I agree with not getting hung up on words as words are at best an abstraction however I also think it’s important for me to understand the definitions being used in the forum as I would like to have our abstractions as close as possible. Hence the question ‘how do you know your awake?’

Sure, and I agree with the necessity of being clear about the way in which words are used, because as you no doubt know, so many words that are all relevant to this are used in so many different ways. Even within LU (Liberation Unleashed) you'll find different formulations of what is essentially the same thing, and also different opinions about what is what.

These are regular topics of discussion, which I think is great, because it helps provide different perspectives (on what is often referred to as the many-faceted jewel of enlightenment, hopefully in prevention of stale fundamentalism, and can also help to clarify various things for various people. Sometimes these will result in a new document being created about a common issue for the purpose of aftercare.

But the basic premise of LU is extremely simple. The way I would formulate it as faithfully as I can, is that liberation is what is afforded by crossing the gateless gate, which amounts to seeing that there is no actual self. Some would say liberation and crossing the gate are two ways of saying the same thing, while others would say liberation is what follows crossing the gateless gate as part of an ongoing process. As far as I can tell, this difference comes only from differences in individual experience and interpretation.

Whatever way one looks at it, the main goal of LU is explicitly to help people crossing that gate using a method called direct pointing. To clarify LU's take on the gate, let me refer back to your own answer to Matt's question:

you seem to asking if I experience the illusion of self as real and awareness as being separated from itself. Awareness is aware of itself here most of the time – the illusion of self is here from time to time.

What LU means by crossing the gate is seeing that there is no actual self, and seeing that what we think and feel as ourselves as a separate entity is an illusion. Crossing the gate does not imply that the illusion is destroyed, only that it is seen for what it is.

Once this is seen, it can essentially be seen whenever one wants, but it is not necessarily an abiding thing initially. It's also no guarantee that there won't be any remaining confusion. Seeing the illusory nature of self greatly helps with seeing the nature of delusion in general, which is key to further progress towards full abiding awakening. But of course for some this may require more continued work than for others. LU has an aftercare group to support people in this process.

The following is a short introduction video meant to explain our approach:
http://www.youtube.com/LiberationUnleashed

How many people on this forum are liberated and/or awake and/or enlightened?? Best way to check out a process is by it’s success record

This forum is focussed on one thing only, which is the gate. People come here to get help crossing the gate, or to get confirmed if they already crossed by some other means and wish to join and contribute (like yourself). As far as I know, there are only two outcomes for people who come here looking for help. Either they cross the gate, or they run away. Most people cross the gate. Although for some it takes a bit longer than others. And even those who run away sometimes come back and cross the gate eventually. As mentioned in the video, what it takes is honesty and commitment.

The one-on-one section of this forum is where the action takes place. Once through, the thread is moved to the liberations section. So the liberations section is a record of succesful liberations (in the sense of crossing the gate), and can be found here:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/viewforum.php?f=5

You'll find more cases on the blogroll, which are some cases from this forum as well as other channels, including the LU Gate group on facebook and exchanges via email and messaging:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_Blogroll.html

Great – sign me up for a serve of awakening and a double side of enlightenment

Would you like fries with that? :)

Ok so that's what Matt was actually starting to do. There are a bunch of questions we use, to which the answers are indicative of whether or not one has crossed that gate. If you could answer the following questions as best as you know how, we'll get a couple of people to look at the answers. Should there be some uncertainty about it, additional clarification may be asked for. After that, if all goes well, you'll be invited to our facebook group(s). Aftercare if you wish to help out post-gate peeps (or if you just want to lurk there), and/or LU Central if you wish to get busy helping peeps cross the gate.

1. Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
2. Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.
3. How does it feel to be liberated?
4. How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no separate entity ‘me’?

[Pratityasamutpada]

Btw. if you're interested, there's another short video as well as an (mp3) interview with Ilona (one of the founders of LU) on the new Video and Audio section of the main site:
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_Videos.html

[Pratityasamutpada]

And out of curiosity, what would you say is the difference (if any) between "awakening", "realization", "liberation", "enlightenment" etc.?

[AnEternalNow]

Hello formerysky,

Seems that you have realized the I AM, which is the profound insight into the essence of mind as luminous pure presence-existence-consciousness.

While this is a precious realization, it is not yet the realization of no self or anatta. I highly recommend reading through this seven stages (that I myself have experientially been through) written by my friend/teacher Thusness: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... ience.html

At the I AM phase, though Pure Presence is non-dual, when facing the multitude of thoughts and perceptions one sees them dualistically. Why? One reifies the I AM into the ultimate, eternal Witness of thoughts and sensations. There are further insights that breaks down the illusion of subject/object dichotomy such that one realizes there is no observer apart from the observed... No witness, just a witnessing not divided in terms of seer and seen. Even after that, there are further insights.

Also at the I AM phase, no self is misunderstood to mean no ego as in an experience of impersonality, or it might be misunderstood to mean non attachment to conceptual images of self. This is not what is meant here. As I wrote before:

""First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing from personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no self apart from arising and passing. A very important point here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).

To put further emphasis on the importance of this point, I would like to borrow from the Bahiya Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html) that ‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing, there is just the heard, no hearer’ as an illustration. When a person says that I have gone beyond the experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’, he is mistaken. When it is taken to be a stage, it is illusory. For in actual case, there is and always is only sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing attained for it is always so. This is the seal of no-self. Therefore to a non dualist, the practice is in understanding the illusionary views of the sense of self and the split. Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of 'presence'. This purest presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the spontaneous nature of the unconditioned. It is critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of ever seeing things dualistically."

P.s. I wrote a long article summarizing my path here for my ebook, I don't think it will resonate with every single person in this forum because not everyone walks the same path or goes through the same experience but it might be of some help to you because of your current experiences and insight.

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/ ... ctice.html

[AnEternalNow]

I forgot to add... The last link that I wrote clarifies the difference between no self understood as impersonality, or as non duality, or as anatta.

Ciaran is more about anatta but many people don't really understand him well, I remember in the old forum many people were deemed "liberated" even though their understanding is at the I AM phase, and many people understand/experience no self in terms of impersonality. And then some mistook non dual with anatta. Though these three aspects are important they should be distinguished for clarity's sake.

[Formerlysky]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the explanations and links

See reply's below

1. Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

There never existed a me/I/you – just a somewhat persistent illusion

2. Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

Assuming we’re talking about the I/me/you self then the entity itself doesn’t exist just an illusion of self built from conditioned responses, attachments to expectations of specific outcomes and preprogrammed survival mechanisms for the organism.
If the question refers to the other self then I see no way to answer that question.

3. How does it feel to be liberated?

Good question.. I kind of came at this from a different angle to most of the people in the forum in stepping through the gate seems to be that you can wake up without stepping through the gate and step through the gate without waking up.. So I woke up without immediately stepping through the gate. Later when I stepped through the gate it just seemed like the next logical step and was more of an observation rather than a realization.. like ‘I see… it seems there is no boundaries on this awareness thing so that gateless gate statement makes sense now. “You will achieve enlightenment when you pass through the gateless gate.” The gateless gate is a joke for those who wake up (well I thought it was funny anyway) and a pointer to head people in the right direction. When I ‘Got’ it for the first time (As in actually saw it as opposed to intellectually seeing it) it was an awareness.
It’s not just realising there is no I/me. It seeing so clearly that it’s irrefutable that there never was an I/me. It was all just an illusion. Stepping through the gate is realising there is no gate, nothing to step through and no one to step through it..
However I digress….How does it feel.. In this I can talk about being awake – as opposed to stepping through the gate for the above reasons.
Firstly we have to accept that I am using language to convey the description and by it's nature language is limited in it's ability to convey experience as it is based in symbols. Direct perception is better... however as we are stuck with this medium we can also agree that while terms like 'I' are no longer accurate or even appropriate they are functional for the vast majority of the human race as opposed to statements like 'the experience of emptiness moving/acting through this experience of form' ...I is simpler.
There is an experience of a lot of joy, happiness and bliss.
I think bliss needs something of an explanation here as it's not a hugely common experience.
It's like being happy - only really really happy.
It's like being in love.
It's like being euphoric and elated and calm at the same time.
So that's bliss
Which is only an aspect of this place. It comes sometimes and it goes.
The beauty is it doesn't matter if it's there or not.
Terms like space, emptiness and peace seem to be descriptors of the internal landscape as well
There is a perception of awareness and how it extends in to everything in every direction.

4. How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about no separate entity ‘me’?

First I’d find out if the curiosity was intellectual or if they wanted to try and step through the gate themselves. If the former then I’d give them an explanation that pointed them in the right direction while satiating the curious driver and if the latter I’d try to lead them down the garden path.

And out of curiosity, what would you say is the difference (if any) between "awakening", "realization", "liberation", "enlightenment" etc.?

For me most of my definitions of these processes come from experience or patanjali’s yoga sutra’s
I don’t have any specific definitions for "realization" and "liberation" other than those used in general language although I find the use of liberation as defined by LU useful and in that context I would see liberation as different from both awakening and enlightenment.
Awakening, awake and enlightenment however I have quite specific definitions for and I would say they are distinct from "realization" and "liberation"
Awakening is the first step in becoming awake when awareness turns in on itself. This may happen for moments or for long periods of time
Awake is when awareness is turned in on itself in an unbroken stream. Ie awareness is aware of itself. Or to quote krisnamurti the observer is the observed. In this experience can also appear (but not necessarily ) the experience of non separation ie all awareness is one and there is no separation between any points in awareness.(ie non duality) Just the illusion of separation which is clearly seen as such. Just as waves on the ocean look separate.. They are still the ocean.
Enlightenment – From my understanding of the definition technically being awake is being enlightened – however I tend to equate enlightenment with Moshka which is complete release from all conditioning, patterns and ties to the cycle of rebirth (if you believe in that). So to me enlightenment is awakening once you have dropped all your baggage. It is possible to be awake for years (or a life time) and still have stuff you have not looked at and let go of. You become enlightened when you have let everything go.

Thanks again
D

[Formerlysky]

Hi Eternal Now
Thanks for the feedback but I find the material a bit on the technical side for me.
Cheers

David

[Pratityasamutpada]

Thanks David, I love it. As far as I'm concerned you're more than clear (wish I were as clear as you mate, experientially speaking :P). But I guess we had already established that. I'll get some more opinions on it, but I don't anticipate any problems.

One important point, in LU terminology when we use the word self, it always refers to personal identity, and we avoid using that word for anything else (at least in our core message and method), so as to avoid confusion and drive home the point that there is no self (identity) to be sought anywhere at all, in any way shape or form.

Do you have a facebook account (assuming you'd like to join our facebook groups)?

[AnEternalNow]

Formerlysky, you have described impersonality and the I AM realization. However there is a further aspect of no self - first non-dual (no subject-object division), then anatta.

When consciousness experiences the pure sense of “I AM”, overwhelmed by the transcendental thoughtless moment of Beingness, consciousness clings to that experience as its purest identity. By doing so, it subtly creates a ‘watcher’ seen to be "behind thoughts and perceptions" and fails to see that the ‘Pure Sense of Existence’ is nothing but an aspect of pure consciousness relating to the thought realm. This in turn serves as the karmic condition that prevents the experience of pure consciousness that arises from other sense-objects. Extending it to the other senses, there is hearing without a hearer and seeing without a seer -- the experience of Pure Sound-Consciousness is radically different from Pure Sight-Consciousness. Sincerely, if we are able to give up ‘I’ and replaces it with “Emptiness Nature”, Consciousness is experienced as non-local. No one state is purer than the other. All is just One Taste, the manifold of Presence.

So in short, the discovery of Awareness Aware of ItSelf as the Pure I AM, the background source and presence, then next realizing no subject-object division and experiencing Presence AS all foreground sensations (not the ocean but the waves, not a container but as the contents) and the clinging to background diminishes, then the realization of anatta - seeing is just the seen, no seer, the process rolls and knows, no knower.