Stream Entry

[Nicholas]

Has anything changed?

nothing, just senses and thoughts. nothing more.

Could that be because there is no-thing for attention to land on? Look again and tell me.

well, can't sense "it" today.

However let me check with you ........does that feel somewhat closer to the truth of what you experience when you drop the word "thing" from what you wrote in that sentence of yours that I quoted?

well, I would compare it to a black hole. you can't even put light(attention) on it. or.... well.. maybe a reverse black hole!

What are you now telling yourself after digesting this post?

I'm starting to think that the reason I can't do this is in a sustained way is because there's a lot of work left to be done with thoughts.
I think they are obstructing truth. sometimes they are less and "maybe" I get a glimpse.

but they are a lot and they keep distracting me, over and over and over and over.

we need to work with thoughts. don't you agree?

otherwise this search is just going to be 1 step forward, 4 steps back and then left and then to Missisippi. uups, where am I right now?.

hug

[Nicholas]

Alan, I propose this. working with one exercise. just one exercise.

{
looking at thoughts. observing how they "pull my attention". observing when I start believing them. when that happens, notice, and then notice how I was pulled. then move on. try not to believe any of them.
not focusing in anything in particular, not the music, not the mind, not the senses. nothing in particular.
}

from the way I see it... it's like we are (I am, you are trying to show me) trying to see "the truth" through a window but the window is completely dirty. sometimes I will catch a glimpse but... wouldn't it be a better idea to first clean the window?

my point is: there is TOO MUCH pull from thoughts. too much belief in them. so how about I first work in reducing belief /thought pulling as much as I can... and then we try again?

I propose doing this for the rest of august and all september.

it won't be like before (switching exercises), I already have the exercise. just have to do it everyday. I don't need and don't want to change anything.

but I won't be here in the meantime. because you will keep asking me questions trying to show me truth, and I won't be able to see it, and I will get frustrated, and I will do something different, and that will keep repeating.

my window is too dirty.

pd: I was looking at the last time I went out of the forum... and then I came back.

I have to tell you, my sleep is so much better than 1 month ago. it keeps getting better with each month.

also was reading to get a sense of "how clear" I was in my practice. right now I feel much more confident in what I'm doing.
so I don't think I'm going to "lost my way" haha.
because doing this "exercise". this "watching thoughts and seeing how I fall for them"... when I do this I can feel "progress". I get satisfaction from this. I get a sense of "going forward" of "getting less and less entangled" and I tell you this because THIS DID NOT HAPPEN WITH PAST EXERCISES (that's why I ended up switching).

so, fully confident this is the way.

ALSO... when reading all your answers, it's funny how you keep nudging me to do the same over and over and over... you use different words but it's the same thing (relax, soften your gaze, stop doing, don't do anything, etc).

see you in October.

thanks for your help and guidance. and patience. if I was able to get to this point was thanks to you. and this exercise I'm doing? thanks to you too! (my mind echoes "Can you see what thoughts are doing to you? Even one thought?")

[Alless]

I think they are obstructing truth.

True !

sometimes they are less and "maybe" I get a glimpse.

Drop the word "maybe" You are seeing it all the time but only attending to thoughts. Like right now. If I asked you what you are seeing you most probably would say "words on the screen" But here's the thing.
What else are you ACTUALLY SEEING that the brain "blocks out" while you are reading these words on the screen?




When you attend to the totality that seeing is .......is there not a whole landscape of seeing experience available when we open to it?

I'm starting to think that the reason I can't do this is in a sustained way is because there's a lot of work left to be done with thoughts.

True !

but they are a lot and they keep distracting me, over and over and over and over.

we need to work with thoughts. don't you agree?[/quote]
Totally disagree. Working with thoughts just keep them alive. And the truth is that it's the way thoughts work on you that is the problem. Waking up to what they are doing to us brings the relief we yearn for

It's like a child terrified of the boogeyman man under the bed. The thoughts create the terror. You can tell the child all you like about the fact that there is no boogeyman - and it may calm them to a certain extent - but the way to have the fear of the boogeyman washed out is to LOOK under the bed. And there's the truth ! There is no boogeyman. Instant relief !!However if the child continues to think about boogeymen then the fear can come back but its nothing to do with the truth that there might be a boogeyman under the bed ! It's just thoughts working on the child.

Just look at the thoughts without digesting their content. You can look at a bottle of poison all you like and it won't affect you in any way. It's only when you imbibe the poison are you in trouble. And the truth is that there is often more than just thoughts, There is typically a "conversation" going on that we are swallowing continually. Conversations are simply a stream of thoughts that tell a story that you are totally immersed in. The intriguing thing here is that when we realize there is a "conversation" going on we can look at it. And in the looking it starts to wither like a plant with no water.

Look right now. Do you have a conversation going on? (Hint: Be very careful that you don't overlook a possible conversation (can be VERY subtle) about this question which is something like "there's no conversation going on, what's he talking about?"



If so who is involved with the conversation? Can you work out the characters? Who's asking the questions? Who is listening to this #*$#* without being aware they are listening? Who is responding?




What is the conversation about?




What happens when you you stand back and just watch it?

Hugs


Alan

[Alless]

Hello Nicholas

I had written the above post before I saw your last post.

I hear you Nicholas. Just be gentle and patient and simply trust your intuition and experience.

I'm here for you when you're ready

With much love.

Alan

[Nicholas]

Hello my dear Alan!
as the days passed, I kept working on this. some days better some days worse. some days more some less. kept switching the technique.
I can't remember the switches or what happened, but I think this "switching" wasn't bad at all, it was just a maturing of the process.

eventually I "arrived" into some kind of a process, days ago, that is SO EASY to follow and do. I think all the work I've done (and your guidance) allowed this.

1) goal is to observe "that stuff" that makes me believe in thoughts, specially monologue which is the "heaviest" and obvious one.
"that stuff" would be a belief. it makes me say "yeah! those thoughts are obviously mine, I'm creating them!!! look! see? haha"
2) so, I observe the monologue, thoughts, and all of them have this belief
3) but then I can go and say "ok! now I'm going to wait for the next thought so I can observe the moment I believe in it"...
and then I am there waiting for the next thought and you know what happens immediately? I notice this same belief that makes me believe "I'm creating thoughts!!! they are mine!!" is also there in that silence!
it's making me believe "hey see? here I am, no thoughts. just observing and waiting for the next thought!"

point is: even without thoughts, the belief is still running and is THERE, I can sense it. I would not define it as a thought or as a sound, sensation or sight. I don't know what it is, but's there! it's ALWAYS there!

4) it doesn't end there. from this point on I can go into infinity. before, I noticed that "I'm here waiting for thoughts", you know what can happen next? I realize that I have another belief that makes me believe that I'm noticing that observation! "I'm noticing that I'm noticing that I'm waiting for a thought"

and then I can go and observe that last observation, and then repeat, and repeat, and repeat and things here get crazy because suddenly thoughts arise on their own and don't seem to be "mine" but also when a thought arises ("I'm hungry") I can feel the "stickiness" in a more visceeral way....

---

In the end, what's behind all of this seems to be the "same". I don't know what to call it. but this belief and belief of the belief and so and so, they all seem to be made of the same (which is not a thought, or a sensation, or a vision, or a sound). I can sense it, but I can't describe it.

Additionally... ALL QUESTIONS that you make me, all inquiry questions that I know of... they all point to this same thing and they all put you in a position where this "belief" "arises" and allows you to sense it.

Like, I don't know... asking "who am I?" then you go and observe what happens. there's a silence before a thought happens, but behind that silence (and behind any thought that happens later) there is this... "stuff".

going to keep working on this new process. it's so easy, so absurdly easy. and I'm not rushing. just taking my time. we will see where it takes me.

we will talk in a few weeks, I guess?

hug!

[Alless]

Hey Mariano

So good to hear !

And thank you for your update in such detail.

A couple of suggestions come to mind however what really comes is to encourage you to continue to follow your inner guidance and just be really curious without expectation of any final ultimate conclusion.

I will be on the lookout for your next update 😊- just when you're ready


Big hug


Alan

[Nicholas]

Hello Alan, will start posting updates day to day from now on to tell you what's happening.
Any advice from you will be listened and applied.

Hug

[Alless]

That's great Mariano

I'll look forward to your posts

Hugs

Alan

[Nicholas]

today meditated for 2hs

my process is the same as previous weeks, it didn't change (that's great!).

1) see how I believe thoughts. accept that I do it. create some. "feel" how I believe in them.
2) wait for next thought to arrive to catch the "moment" I start believing in it (hint, the belief is already there before any thought)
3) this belief seems to have some kind of substance, so observe that
4) while doing that, try also looking for the watcher, the one that seems to be having "this experience"
5) while doing that, distractions will arise: that's just me believing thoughts, observe that too

1+2 are for warming up.
but the real process is 3+4+5. so my attention is always "there", in that dynamic state.

meditation is easy. I can do this and I don't get tired.
it seems however, that it works like some kind of a door. sometimes it's opened and sometimes it's closed.

+) this watcher seems to be like some kind of "the original thought".
+) I also feel, when doing this, that I'm "tracing all the way back to the observer"

I don't have anything to report today.
Just meditated. that's it.

Hug

[Alless]

Good. Keep at this Mariano.

it seems however, that it works like some kind of a door. sometimes it's opened and sometimes it's closed.

That is perfectly normal. And it something that could be called a conclusion that the mind offers.

Just continue to be curious without expectation of any conclusion and look and see what happens when the thought arises that this door is open or when it says it is closed and see what happens.


Hugs

Alan

[Nicholas]

Hello Alan.

Today meditated for 1h, had crappy sleep so this is the most I could do.

+ process is getting quicker. point 1 and 2 are seen more clearly faster and faster: belief is always there and can be looked directly
+ I also had this thought that... "distractions being me falling for thoughts, but if there's no ME... there's no one to fall for thoughts so there never distractions. just thoughts"
trying to internalize this gave me a mini but benign panic attack because "no one is in control!"

Just continue to be curious without expectation of any conclusion and look and see what happens when the thought arises that this door is open or when it says it is closed and see what happens.

well... door open or closed means thoughts are seen clearly for what they are, just thoughts and no belief for them.
sometimes that's seen and sometimes not.
but also, I guess closed or open that's just another thought right? in the end, there's no door because there's no one to cross that door right?

working on it...

hug

[Alless]

trying to internalize this gave me a mini but benign panic attack because "no one is in control!"

Glad the panic attack was "mini and benign" !!
Is that still true when you look? How does that feel now?




Anything else to report with seeing "no one is in control!"?

but also, I guess closed or open that's just another thought right? in the end, there's no door because there's no one to cross that door right?

Yes, that's it. You see those thoughts and then, as you are doing, go straight back to looking at what is actually there !!
How does it feel to see that where there is no door?





Hugs


Alan

[Nicholas]

+ mhm, in the end any process is ok as long as I end up just looking

+ I could grab some parts of the process and dissect them, add steps, remove steps. but that's not longer necessary. for example "step 1, if I believe I'm creating thoughts, then I'm still holding the belief that there's someone believing those thoughts, etc"

doesn't matter, irrelevant. because I'm just adding thoughts on top of thoughts (or conclusions, like you said).

the only matter here is: there's an assumption that there's a ME. is this true or not? just looking...

+ SO, "in conclusion", trying to work only with that simple look. first 2 steps are great for allowing me to "remember how to look" then I just look and nothing more.
what am I looking? I don't know, it's not a thought or something residing in senses. but I'm definitely putting my attention on something dynamic and subtle.

Glad the panic attack was "mini and benign" !!
Is that still true when you look? How does that feel now?

it was just a ripple, nothing else to say

Anything else to report with seeing "no one is in control!"?

it's just another thought! just a small distraction

How does it feel to see that where there is no door?

AH! every thought, every conclusion, every insight, every new method, every discovery is a distraction!
only thing that matters is the final truth.

the process still applies! I don't need to change anything because my process allows to quickly "arrive" into looking.

only thing left to do is... looking :) until truth is seen. whatever that is.

hug

[Alless]

because "no one is in control!"

So .....is it still true that there is no one controlling anything?



And in that seeing, are you saying that there is no separate entity called a "me" to control anything?



Hug

Alan.

[Nicholas]

today I did the process again but I find myself very distracted with thoughts.
let's see: I can easily notice there's SOMETHING besides senses and thoughts, some kind of a constant that I can't define.
something I can perceive. but thoughts are reaaally convincing and distracting and noisy.

So! I decided to deviate a bit, and start working with thoughts instead. with the belief in them.

so I'm going back to that thing we did in the past... "what do thoughts do to me"?
because, yeah, I could just see "how I fall for thoughts" but that doesn't seem to be enough! doing some kind of action like saying "that's a thought" seems to work better, doing some "active" work.
so I'm going back to using my body and observe thoughts with a skeptic look.

looking back and that seemed to generate a kind of "progression", but in the end, any process is ok. I'm not stressed about "switching" or anything like that, I can clearly see how all techniques just point to the same hehe.

difference between now and several weeks ago is that I seem to have more stamina for this. I don't get tired! and I don't get frustrated either!

...

and when I was walking the street I remembered a method I discovered 2 months ago, so I started doing that instead. I just ask myself "is there any effort?" (this refers to, is there any effort in thinking? in moving? in attention? is there any effort at all being applied?).
you know what's nice about this method? it has no interruptions.

for example: previous method "seeing what thoughts do to me" will involve distractions and interruptions. "oh, I forgot to watch thoughts! oh! a thought has grabbed my attention!" and then there are thoughts and when you become aware of them they "stop", it's like interrupting them. and there's a movement in attention, that goes from here to there. it's kinda clumsy, it has a lot of swinging."here, there, now here! AH!"

however...

the "effortless" method? it has no interruptions.

I just notice if any effort is applied. where? in everything. that includes the movement of attention. and that means I don't touch attention, I don't touch anything. I don't do anything. so attention can go wherever it wants.
does attention want to focus on thoughts? ok. does attention want to go there? ok. to a sound? ok. nothing is changed. so there are no interruptions. thoughts do whatever they want to do and there's no change of focus or "OH NO I'M BELIEVING THOUGHTS!!" nop, nothing is wrong. there is just a "flow" of movement. it's like staying still and letting everything happen around you.

it's like, focus is on attention, but is super super subtle, tiny like a point, to avoid redirecting it or reacting. yep. there's no reaction. no redirection.

I'm going to do this one! it's a nice one, and maybe now, after 2 months it works better or something like that.

So .....is it still true that there is no one controlling anything?

just another thought...

And in that seeing, are you saying that there is no separate entity called a "me" to control anything?

just another thought!


aaaaaa hug!