Introduction

[Haider2233]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? There is no little version of myself inside my head deciding things and making things happen. Life and mental activity occur due to past experiences, genetics and the current environment. Its like a car driving on a road but there is no one at wheel.

What are you looking for at LU? I am looking for a guide to help me internalize the concept of no self. I want to join a community of like-minded people. I would like to help others if I am able to get past the proverbial gateless gate.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I want someone to ruthlessly expose my false sense of self by asking me direct questions about it. I do not expect to fully drop the illusion from just one talk but my expectation is that I can greatly weaken it with the help of a guide.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I have been meditating (mindfulness meditation mostly) on and off for about 10 years. I have read books on the topic of advaita vedanta, zen, and general Buddhism. I have read liberation unleashed, Jed Mckenna's books, untethered soul and others. On an intellectual level, I understand the concept of no self. I can see mental activity (thoughts, emotions, memories) randomly pop up and disappear. I can also see how "I" did not choose for them to pop up or go away. I am having trouble internalizing these teachings and making it my default state. One of the books I read gave an example where the true self (awareness) is always there like a mirror but mental activity clouds it like dirt. This is a good example of where I am at currently. I can see mental activity is choiceless and impersonal but only when I meditate and still my mind first. During everyday life, there is too much mental chatter that fogs my ability to be content.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[graceabounds]

Hello,

I’m happy to be present with you in this inquiry.

The LU process will not be about refining your conceptual model of “no-self,” but about dismantling the seeker role you’ve described and watching that collapse as it happens.

Ready to begin?

I am looking for a guide to help me internalize the concept of no self

If you actually see there’s no self, there’s nothing left to internalize. :)
It’s not about believing it harder, or making it your “default state.” It’s about looking right now and seeing there’s nothing there to be in any state at all!

So right now, without preparation, without meditation, without slowing the mind:
This thought reading these words… who’s it happening to?
Not who you think it’s to. In raw experience, can you find the receiver?

In gratitude,
-Becca

[Haider2233]

Hello Becca, I am ready. I cannot find a receiver of the words. My eyes see them and my brains interprets the words and thinks of a reply but I cannot find a singular object or being inside my head doing that work. Thank you.

[graceabounds]

Great.

my brains interprets the words and thinks of a reply

Slow that down… “my brain interprets” is already a story.
Drop the “my,” drop the “brain,” drop the “interprets.”
Then look. What’s actually here?

Thoughts arising and passing is raw, or direct, experience
Their content, what they are about, is not. So let’s explore:

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?


Do you find anything in direct experience that is doing the interpreting, or does it all just happen, unowned?

[Haider2233]

It's all happening on its own. I cannot control what thoughts come up or their content. I cannot predict which ones come up. Thoughts and their associated memories and emotions don't have a logical order. What I sense is a thought will happen and that tangentially brings in another thought or emotion or memory. I don't have control of any these mental activities and I don't know where they come from or where they go. Its like lava bubbling from a volcano. I notice certain thoughts and emotions are stickier than others.

[graceabounds]

Good, you are seeing the mechanics without the “me” overlay.

Now look closer at those sticky ones. Don’t just note that they’re sticky, feel what stickiness is…

When a sticky thought or emotion appears, before the story about it can run, where in the body does it register?
Is it tightness? Heat? Pulling in? Pressure?

Stay there (before naming, or interpreting) until it’s just raw sensation.

Does the stickiness still have the same pull when it’s only sensation without story?

[Haider2233]

I'll use the most prevalent sticky thought in my life right now. I broke up with my fiance 1 month ago. Whenever thoughts of us together or her occur, I feel tightness in my chest, neck, mouth, lower face. I feel my heart racing. I feel my body getting all over. I feel stuffiness in my nose.
I noticed the sensations are not as intense when when I don't attach the stories to them or try to name the feelings (ex: anxiety). They still recur but don't last as long.

[graceabounds]

Exactly.

See what’s happening: without the story “breakup,” without the story “her,” it’s just tightness, racing, heat, stuffiness. They rise, shift, fade… no one holding them up.

Now watch in real time when the mind tries to hook a sensation with a thought.
It’s instant Velcro.
The moment the hook lands (like “this means loss,” “this is anxiety,” “this shouldn’t be here”) the sensation flares and feels heavier.

Stay with the raw bubbling before the hook. Let the body do whatever it’s doing, without the interpreter moving in.

In this moment, can you find anything solid, personal, or permanent in those sensations themselves?

I noticed the sensations are not as intense when when I don't attach the stories to them or try to name the feelings

Yes, excellent noticing. Naming is the fastest way to turn a fleeting sensation into “my problem.”

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for a while.

Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are.

Give it some time. Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

[Haider2233]

I perceive just shades of light, colors, and different shapes when I drop all labels and stories.

[graceabounds]

Great. That’s it. Even in the middle of strong emotions, this raw seeing is untouched, undisturbed.

There is a formula for this, it is:
Emotion = Sensation + Thought
The lava will continue to bubble in the volcano, but if it bubbles without being personal to you, and you follow the sensations in the body, what is present?

—————

The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.
Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while.
Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?

Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it. Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?

Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

[Haider2233]

I'll be honest. I did the spoon exercise and sat with the thought of "me" for awhile. I know intellectually there is no little version of myself inside my head but that is consistently what I see when I think of "me". I see a small version of myself behind the forehead looking out to the world. I don't see a memory of myself but exactly how I currently look.

[graceabounds]

Great noticing!
That’s not some deep truth about what you are, it’s just a thought-image, no different than imagining a pink elephant. :)

Close your eyes.
Notice sensations in the forehead. Pressure, tingling, warmth? That’s actual.

Now notice: is the little person there in sensation, or only as a thought-image?
Look closely. Can you find that “one behind the forehead” without thought? Or is it only ever conjured as a mental picture?

What I would like you to do is imagine a small apple centred in the head.
Before the apple disappears….
…imagine a canary centred in the head, tweeting away.
Before, the canary flies off (weird huh?)….
…imagine a 'me' centred in the head.
Stay with it…
…imagine it is completely transparent. See straight through it…
…imagine there not seeming to be a 'me' in the head anymore.
Give it a go, see what happens.

[Haider2233]

Hi Becca, I sat with this for a while (2 hours). The picture of myself as the person in my head was strong at first but by the end, it had dissolved and I felt a "lightness" in the front of my head. As far as the raw sensation, it is vague and hard to describe. Buzzing and tingling are the closest in terms of description. I want to say it feels like synapses sparking but that's a conditioned image from my mind (I work in medicine).

I noticed two interesting things.
1) Thoughts came from a different place than the feeling of me. The feeling of me is behind the forehead but thoughts came elsewhere from deep inside the head.
2) Thoughts and the image of myself never coexisted. I noticed if there was a thought or any mental activity, the picture of myself was conspicuously absent. Similarly, when the feeling of me was the strongest, I did not notice anything else in my mind. I specifically did not see it create any thoughts.

[graceabounds]

Really excellent looking.

As far as the raw sensation, it is vague and hard to describe. Buzzing and tingling are the closest in terms of description.

That lightness and buzzing is what’s actually here. That’s direct experience. The rest was always a conceptual overlay.

Now that the mental picture of yourself is absent is anything missing? Is there any lack, or is experience still complete without it?

The place with the thoughts, that specific location… separate from any sense of self… if you were to imagine a volume dial there, could the volume be turned down on thoughts? Or try a pause button. What happens?


Next Let’s examine the solidity of the head.
Press a finger down onto the top of the head.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?

And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

[Haider2233]

Experience is complete and lacks nothing without the image of myself. My thoughts and other mental activity continue but the mental picture of myself has yet to return. I was able to work, meditate, go to the gym etc. without it. I imaged a volume dial or pause button over the location of my thoughts but there was no difference. That's okay because the egoic activity and strong emotions don't feel as sticky as before.
I did the solidity exercise. I found the sensations were pressure and location (ex: top of head). I noticed there was a story about "my head" and "my hand" touching it. It feels like there is skin, bone, blood vessels, brain between the pressure points and I feeling that they are all part of my head.