Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work

[LoraBorealis]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I have clearly seen that there is no self at times *when guided* but I understand from step two of fetter work that I am very full of doubt. When I do the work I have trouble with how No Self applies to making decisions in life, etc

What are you looking for at LU? Someone to guide me through the steps to seeing no self, not just intellectually. I have only had brief glimpses and have not felt any kind of shift. It has been suggested to get a guide, a number of times.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? Someone who I can report to so that I dont keep falling off the path. I think I need someone to point out my small successes that I have not noticed. I keep waiting for something massive to happen and think I am missing some important openings.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I did a ten-day silent Vipassana in 2014, I have worked with ayahuasca in the jungle, I meditate almost every morning, i have read non-dual books, I am currently watching videos on the fetters

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi LoraBorealis
(what do you want me to call you? Lora?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,
Thank you for responding to my post. I also replied to your email (thank you for that!).
I am in Berkeley, CA: Pacific timezone. And you?
I read through the LU (what this is NOT) and ready to get started. I do have a few trips coming up this fall (August 5-13) and mid and late Sept, but I will have wifi on occasion so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Thank you, again!
Laura

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura
It’s my pleasure! :)
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I am in Berkeley, CA: Pacific timezone. And you?

I'm GMT+2 (South Africa). We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

I do have a few trips coming up this fall (August 5-13) and mid and late Sept, but I will have wifi on occasion so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

I also might have in September, but I will let you know. I will have Wi-Fi most of the time but let’s talk again about this closer to the time. As long as we know each other’s plans we can make it work :)

I read through the LU (what this is NOT) and ready to get started.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,
Indeed South Africa is about as far from California as one could get! For the record, I will now read everything you write in a South African accent:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

The mind will be more settled, I will be able to see more of my shadow side through the fetter work. Beyond that, I'm not so sure any more. Originally, I thought I would be floating on a lotus under a rainbow but I have read and seen enough now to understand that is NOT the case, so I have more of a "don't know" mind.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I will be less knee-jerk reactive since my mind will be more settled. I hope this will help me work through the fetters, letting go, letting go.

3. What do you want not to happen?

The only thing that causes me fear is losing my marbles, but I know that is irrational. I also don't want to look like some of my favorite teachers who stare unblinkingly. Well, not until I retire, anyways.

4. What are you hoping for?

I hope to drop the story of "me/mine" and see that the self does not exist. I understand this intellectually, but I haven't had any big shift.

5. What is missing?

I don't know.

(The preview of this email looks odd, does it look right to you?)

With gratitude,
Laura

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura

Indeed South Africa is about as far from California as one could get! For the record, I will now read everything you write in a South African accent:

I am actually originally Bulgarian so I’m not so sure about the South African accent ;). It’s probably a mixture of both by now (27 years later)

Please watch the video on how to use the Quote function again. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ
I’m sorry to be so demanding about it but it will definitely be of help later when the questions start coming…If you see a question in blue (or even in black if I miss it) please quote it and answer it.

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible. Like this one:

Originally, I thought I would be floating on a lotus under a rainbow but I have read and seen enough now to understand that is NOT the case, so I have more of a "don't know" mind.

:))) Having a beginner's mind is the best you can do
The rest of your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

The only thing that causes me fear is losing my marbles, but I know that is irrational. I also don't want to look like some of my favorite teachers who stare unblinkingly. Well, not until I retire, anyways.

I can assure you not blinking is not it. If your teachers feel the need to do that they are missing the point :)
How can you lose your marbles? How can an illusion have experiences/lack of them? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will…

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?
Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.
Let’s examine this carefully... Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. It is a sensation tied to a story (thought). In this case the thought protects “you” from changing and losing your “humanity” (marbles). But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff? Can a mirage change the landscape?
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?
Please sit and examine this carefully. Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary. Please let me know what you find.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,
Bulgarian! Ah…
Thank you for taking the time with these questions. I think I have the quote issue solved.

Is thIs okay with you?

Yes! The end of seeking would save me a ton of money. I have become identified with the seeker by this point. I am getting frustrated by the endless seeking for so many years and would love to just chill out with the whole thing. Simple and ordinary sounds achievable!

How can you lose your marbles? How can an illusion have experiences/lack of them?

An illusion or a thought cannot have its own experience. Just as a thought cannot think

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?

Well, I suppose I see folks like Adyashanti say they cant remember what they just said and it harkens back to that fear of becoming a zombie or losing my marbles. I am just remembering that, although it was not discussed in my family, my father suffered from severe depression so badly that he had to be hospitalized. The details were never explained to me so it exists in my memory as a fear, I suppose. I will give this more thought.

why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff? Can a mirage change the landscape?

Understood. A mirage cannot change the landscape.

When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

I don’t remember ever believing in Santa so when I was told he didn’t exist, it did not come as a surprise. I don’t remember a lot of details of my childhood since there was a bit of trauma so this might not be the best example for me. That being said, I completely understand this sentiment. Like you said earlier, a mirage cannot change the landscape.

Sit with this fear and allow it to be there. See what it is really protecting and if it is necessary.

It seems like the fear is protecting the self from annihilation. The self being the mind and the body of the little girl who learned to protect herself. As a woman I have heard a million times to be aware of my surroundings. Keep your head up. Don’t look like you’re in fear as you were walking alone or you will be at target for criminals. But I had a thought a few weeks ago walking in the woods that I have absolutely no control and I may as well walk like a queen instead of like a person who is always defensive. And typing this right now allows me to remember that my father often said to “always be defensive” which can’t be good for any child to hear repeatedly. To say he had a lot of fear is an understatement and I see the remnants here that I picked that up as a way of life. (Shaking my head).

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

I searched for an answer to this ongoing question I have: if there is no decision-maker why do I have to make choices? Or is it that I make choices based on the old fear of annihilation but that decision just doenst matter in the unfolding of the universe. I just believe it matters so that I keep the body and mind safe?
Also, is this thinking but not “seeing”? I can’t tell the difference. I looked inward, but I’m not sure that is considered “looking.” Maybe it is.
The sensations I was having was that I could feel my heart beating a little heavier and louderthan normal, but otherwise I didn’t feel anything unusual in my body or much at all really. I have thought about this question in the past and I do get a little anxious sometimes with body sensations like nausea and rapid heartbeat. But it was much less so this morning.
I will sit with this last set of questions again today and this evening to see what else I find.

I want to go ahead and send this because I don’t want to lose it and it looks like I can’t save anything but the subject line(?).
With gratitude,
Laura

[LoraBorealis]

Further to my last response “there is no decision maker” I understand that there is no I here making decision but it feels like it. I am aware there is no homunculus driving around this meat suit pulling switches and gears. How does it happen the car turns left instead of right, how does Laura decide when and where to spend money on a vacation. The money is limited and there are so many invitations to travel with friends. Which one ends up being selected if “I” am not making a choice?

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura
This is gold. Not because it’s beautiful, but because it’s honest.

It seems like the fear is protecting the self from annihilation.

Yes. But what exactly is being protected?
What, in direct experience—not memory, not thought—needs protection?

I looked inward, but I’m not sure that is considered ‘looking.’

Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

So there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing (colour)
Hearing (sound)
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels) (sensation)
Tasting (taste)
Smelling (smell)
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura
It's been 3 days...Are we doing this? Is everything OK?

Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,
Oh no!
I was not notified that you responded so I've been waiting. I spent the time contemplating and meditating on the last response thinking that you were waiting for more of a response from me. I have so many notes!
I'll read this below and respond shortly.
Best,
Laura

[LoraBorealis]

Hi again, Rali,
Apologies again regarding the confusion and delay. I was not wasting a moment of that missing time and spent the weekend in contemplation and meditation. Let's get right to it:

But what exactly is being protected?
What, in direct experience—not memory, not thought—needs protection?

The thought that the "illusion of self" is seeking protection but there seems to be nothing there to protect.

by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Right, I am clear that I have been having insights or direct seeing. These glances feels like a realization or an uncovering of a truth that I am understanding fully, rather than remembering what someone told me. Although, sometimes I see the realization and then start labeling it right away.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

I put a real red apple in front of me and the thoughts were "that is going to taste sweet and juicy," "I should probably slice it instead of diving right in" and "I need to go get a plate and a knife," etc etc...a long stream of thoughts ABOUT the apple but not experiencing the apple by actually biting into it.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Ah, so the label of the sweetness, the label of the shape, the label of the smell I have been conditioned to understand as apple. This fruit by any other name would taste as sweet but might be called something else. That does not seem like the correct path for me to follow...
Unless you are referring to me looking at the image of the apple, and not holding the apple in my hand and biting into it.
Can you clarify? Am I understanding this correctly?

Thank you!
Laura

[LoraBorealis]

Oh, I think I get it. I was sitting watching the trees this weekend without labeling and it was just an open ...vast...experience of seeing. So, let me try the apple experiment again.
Okay, it appears more as if there are shapes on a screen.
There was only "seeing." I bit into the apple and it was only "tasting." As if, openness was tasting sweetness. But, then labeling came in pretty quickly.

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura

I was not notified that you responded so I've been waiting. I spent the time contemplating and meditating on the last response thinking that you were waiting for more of a response from me. I have so many notes!

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. If you are, please check the spam folder in case the emails are going there

Oh, I think I get it. I was sitting watching the trees this weekend without labeling and it was just an open ...vast...experience of seeing. So, let me try the apple experiment again.
Okay, it appears more as if there are shapes on a screen.
There was only "seeing." I bit into the apple and it was only "tasting." As if, openness was tasting sweetness. But, then labeling came in pretty quickly.

Yes. There is no “apple” in experience. There is seeing. Tasting. But “apple” is thought. A mental echo. A name. When biting happens, what actually shows up?
Flavour. Texture. Sensation.
Then thought says, “sweet,” “juicy,” “apple,” and pretends it is reporting something real—
when it’s only tagging the raw with old labels.
“Apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object” (or “fruit”). “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Great! So if you look at the 'I/me' , is it actually known?
Yes, sensation labelled as “I” is known (as well as smell :), or sound), as are the thoughts ABOUT an “I”, but is an “I” actually known?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Thank you, Rali. I think this will be an easy one for me. I spent a good part of last weekend doing this.

Just a quick note that I will be traveling to Guatemala for a few days soon. Most of my journey will be travel and I'm not sure I will have wifi: August 5 - 12. I'll do my best to check in since I love meditating/contemplating while on an airplane.

Best,
Laura