Requesting a guide.

[JonathanR]

Iain

I was interrupted. But now it seems I wrote exactly what I meant to say, so I won’t post again until I hear from you.

Love

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

Is it still clear that the content of thoughts is a kind of narrative [and] never really the same as felt presence of immediate experience ?

This is clear at times and less clear others. I felt uncomfortable during the later part of the day and this malaise/discomfort led to a defensiveness and wish to retreat. It seemed uncomfortable to meet sensation and thought was more apparent. It was reasoned to still try to use this scenario to look but there was little sinking in. I have days like this. Foggy.

Does the sinking in just happen or is there an attempt to “do” it or make it happen?

This is a rich direction. I enjoyed looking today when it was remembered thought content is empty and 'ask' who is it who prefers knowing to just being adrift in thought? Who chose to leave the last thought and then reflect that it was empty rather than simply drift into the next thought? Who is here trying to sink in right now? This adds an interesting dynamism to the looking.

When I 'white knuckle it' with breath held and eyes focused then this can feel like a forced attempt to do it.

When it happens easily, naturally and smoothly this is more natural.

Thank you for sharing about nature. I always recall this from your video some years ago.

with thanks

[JonathanR]

Hi Iain

Is it still clear that the content of thoughts is a kind of narrative [and] never really the same as felt presence of immediate experience ?
This is clear at times and less clear others. I felt uncomfortable during the later part of the day and this malaise/discomfort led to a defensiveness and wish to retreat. It seemed uncomfortable to meet sensation and thought was more apparent. It was reasoned to still try to use this scenario to look but there was little sinking in. I have days like this. Foggy.

Ok. If you feel open to this I suggest looking to see if there is ever actually a self, as such, a fixed entity? Was there ever a separate self?

It is seen that discomfort led to defensiveness. That might seem like a problem for an imagined self. That’s the illusion, that there is actually someone “trying to survive”.

Simply buying into this belief of course perpetuates this misapprehension. But what if it’s very clearly seen that this “self” is a mental construct, always was, always will be?


There’s no denying that discomfort can happen. But what is it that has a problem about it? What if discomfort is just discomfort , but not happening TO someone?

Who is here trying to sink in right now? This adds an interesting dynamism to the looking.

That’s great. This inquisitive, interested approach that can be fun rather than some sort of drudge is really helpful.

Love

[IainB]

Jon

look [...] to see if there is ever actually a self, as such, a fixed entity? Was there ever a separate self?

I'm able to be with the knowing that thought is thought - this is a knowing that is returned to.

As for a knowing there was never a fixed entity or separate self, this seems as yet unknown.

It seems never known, yet in it's absence there remains a seeking to know it.

An absence of knowing something was never fixed or separate from what is, sounds somewhat paradoxical.

Perhaps it will appear and be known. Or in some other way inferred. Perhaps similar to it being clearer knowing that thought is thought.

An aversion to simply providing some form of correct answer is known as that fails to deliver the goods.

That [discomfort / defensiveness] might seem like a problem for an imagined self. That’s the illusion [...] someone “trying to survive”.

Thought content suggesting something is wrong and strategies to respond to discomfort seem instinctive and accelerated by discomfort. There is a fear that without them you are simply left with the discomfort with less of an opportunity to escape.

Thought content may well be a failed attempt to escape, but remains instinctive nonetheless.

There is fear that you are inviting me to simply be the discomfort.

Or the serenity when it appears. It doesn't appear this morning. I feel slightly anxious and depressed and vulnerable and this influences my response here.

This is where bypassing seems to take place. It is reasoned 'there is no separate person, and illusion' but this is dry and artificial compared to that knowing that thought is thought.

what if it’s very clearly seen that this “self” is a mental construct, always was, always will be?

This feels vulnerable and exposing this morning, rather than an exciting adventure to be guided on.

It's the end of the dream of somewhere to get to.

what is it that has a problem about it? What if discomfort is just discomfort, but not happening TO someone?

Again, I have no new tools to know this. All I have to offer is that knowing that thought is thought. Is there any way to use that to somehow move towards this?

with thanks

[IainB]

Jon

what if [...] identifications are actually opportunities to notice what’s going on? To see identification as it happens?

and

There’s no denying that discomfort can happen. But what is it that has a problem about it? What if discomfort is just discomfort, but not happening TO someone?

These points seem closely matched.

I'm going to take these out for a few hours and play fully with them.

with gratitude

[IainB]

Discomfort and dissatisfaction are so useful. If I only ever had so called comfortable sensations and reassuring thought content there would be no motivation to look beyond a casual interest. Or if what was found did not meet expectations it is disregarded rather than sunk into.

Low mood turned into elation and there was the hypnotic attraction of so called pleasant sensations and positive thoughts. It was remembered to look and know all thought content as empty and consider the consequences of this for the separate person Iain. I was gathered with others but had the opportunity to sit silently, and sink into the darkness of eyes closed, the ever morphing of sensations, looking at the wall but with focus on this knowing, remembering, sinking in, enjoying.

I love how this work fills conscious experience. Upon waking and there was a mish-mash of thought content and sensations. It was remembered to look and after a time this settled out and looking resumed.

I do need support moving from the comfort zone of knowing thought as thought only, and being able to answer gate type questions with a shifted lived knowing, perhaps.

[IainB]

Jon

That’s the illusion, that there is actually someone “trying to survive”.

All those thoughts, drama, beliefs are all suddenly “empty” again.

You clearly guide towards it being known that the character me is illusory and empty. There may be a forgetting of this at times especially when thought content is known, but it can be clearly returned to knowing that thought is empty and illusory.

I like the Santa analogy. Santa was both known as a tangible image with accompanying sound (name) labelled by thought as being 'Santa', with thought pictures likewise labelled Santa. Subsequent though content gave a sequence of thoughts about Santa on the balance of probabilities being a real agent, until this was replaced by knowing that this was wrong. Tangible (so called 'external') images and thoughts about Santa no longer pointed towards something real.

In a similar way it can be clearly taken, held and known that all thought content is illusory and empty. The character me really is no different to Santa other than seemingly held and cosseted in thought for longer.

I wish to work with this strongly today: thought being an illusion, and the clear parallels of the grasping of the imagined character and how when seen through there was nothing to grasp at there in thought all along.

what if it’s very clearly seen that this “self” is a mental construct, always was, always will be?

This feels vulnerable and exposing this morning, rather than an exciting adventure to be guided on.

I had a strong backlash yesterday evening. I did a project that went poorly and felt a deep sense of fruitlessness. It wasn't as charged as frustration or hopelessness and there was no anger or emotive attempt to blame others, but a turning inwards.

I was left with all the desires, twists and turns and pressures of being the character in the here and now, but a throwing in the towel of playing out the usual act going through with these as I knew I simply could not make the situation work. I told the person I met as much "I feel vulnerable, have no one to turn to and cannot make this situation work'. Situation being me, as opposed to simply believing that one thing had gone wrong earlier.

I saw how my surface actions were proxies for deeper unmet needs and a longing to be released from deeply held deficiency and inadequacy with an instinct that somehow there was a route out of being constricted by the prison of longing, seeking and frustrated desire. I have a seeking energy to escape, and I am quick to act this out here, and very much in the other spheres of therapeutic, healing recovery and reparenting activity that I engage in most days.

This was very reactionary, uncomfortable and active complete loss of quiescence but it was new. I wonder if I can use this here. It's less strong this morning. It's good in as much as I've not had a breakdown/breakthrough experience like this for some time.

I can clearly see how I am using the work here as a proxy to try and fix the core schism of Being, but encountering distance from the love and peace I both know but long for, and know cannot be met by attempts to negotiate with the ineffable encounter with/as life in the moment, hence a backlash. Onwards and upwards.

with love

[JonathanR]

Iain, Finally! Access to the forum!

I see you managed to post three or four times. That's really good. Thank you. And you have really spoken quite deeply about what's going on for you and how you are approaching things. Its all very honest and open, so I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

Actually there is a lot to take in and I've only just read through your posts. I don't want to rush to reply superficially. The way it works here ( for me), it seems, is that it takes a little time to absorb a lot of information and then, later, there's something worth saying, or asking.

One thing though, The quest to see no self can sometimes seem threatening, 'empty' or disappointing, as if everything is being taken away or lost. But this is from a viewpoint that imagines loss and disappointment. If it can be labelled 'emptiness' then it might also perfectly well be labelled 'fullness'. Better still, no labels at all.

There's a beautiful aspect to no self that is, essentially, no separation. This can be explored and i suggest we look in that direction.

Lots of love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi again Iain

I saw how my surface actions were proxies for deeper unmet needs and a longing to be released from deeply held deficiency and inadequacy with an instinct that somehow there was a route out of being constricted by the prison of longing, seeking and frustrated desire.

What the describe as deeply held deficiency and inadequacy; not to deny this, but is there a one to whom this belongs? Is there actually some thing, holding this, as such?

Could it be like well worn ruts of thinking and feeling that add up to a skewed belief that someone, “me”, is “deficient”?

Is “the prison of longing” in the body? Is it in the mind?

I have a seeking energy to escape, and I am quick to act this out here, and very much in the other spheres of therapeutic, healing recovery and reparenting activity that I engage in most days.

That’s a very helpful thing to admit here. Recognising this is an important step. Could you see the possibility of a point at which the seeking simply drops away? What could bring that about?

With love

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

not to deny [healing type story], but is there a one to whom this belongs? Is there actually some thing, holding this, as such?

I would like to see this. I believe the only tool I have this evening is sitting with knowing thought as santaesque story and illusory (so I instinctively go back there). I can screw my eyes up too but if there is more to know and write it's not here yet.

I would like to return to this.

Could it be like well worn ruts of thinking and feeling [...] add up to a skewed belief that someone, “me”, is “deficient”?

Absolutely, thought is the only container repeatedly suggesting that wrong things happened to me or were done by me. Thought loves to appropriate sensation but this is automatic not from any agency within thought - it's what thought does...like lets surf these thoughts out floating atop these sensations, or just passively if sensation happens to be quiet.

add up to a skewed belief that someone, “me”, is “deficient”?

In the repetition of thought (seemingly - it is only thought that suggests there were earlier similar thoughts and that thought is an accurate photograph of an original past event). Thought can be such a naughty trickster in this way. And when audienced repeatedly without knowing there is a hypnotic reverence that there really is someone to fight for.

“the prison of longing” in the body? Is it in the mind?

Oops did I say that, rather theatrical. Both.

There is a journey in sensation where release may take place and there is a felt knowing that sensation labelled pain, shame and loss etc were held and are now known, perhaps released or moving/changed.

And there are is story in thought about how this prison may be negotiated, released from again and again in different ways, returned to etc.

is there a one to whom this belongs? Is there actually some thing, holding this, as such?

No. It is an encounter seemingly at this location here but it is ever changing and moving through not owned and grasped.

I would like to return to this.

Could you see the possibility of a point at which the seeking simply drops away? What could bring that about?

Seeking has seemingly dropped away in the past. I have thought stories of a number of times where there was a strong sense of being done with no further experiences required, no events missing, nothing further of relevance that might appear in thought or in the felt world of sensation and other sensed encounters. I'm suggesting months rather than moments here. I'm in several communities based around knowing this and acknowledging this in other friends.

Yet a pull back into the meaning or value of thoughts and story occurred. A theme over the last year for me was that end of seeking sharing and coaching knowing may have been internalised and in part even times wholly lived out but in truth my lived experience was driven by unresolved trauma and below the surface unmet deficiency inside me and about my life (thought content plus my lived out experience).

This led to a voracious wish to expose, heal, confront addictive patterns, shift somatically and emotionally, reveal denial, be radically open and honesty. I may not have chosen me and there may well be no character outside thought but it felt too honest and compelling to not pick up the baton and run with is of witnessing the trauma and hurt in my family (and our shared culture) that lived out in me, be acutely present for my own and others vulnerability. I saw a lifetime of hurt, bypassing and denial. It's deeply humbling. It can leave me unregulated, out of control, absent of old deficient coping mechanisms and exposed and other times deeply quiescent and serene but always fantastically alive. I found what I was looking for - that is was perfectly okay to be and sit with the innocent vulnerability of the world.

But it brings me in a loop back here. I enjoy bringing this energy to knowing thought content can be viewed differently. It does not have to be the me it was taken for. It can be powerfully reframed as santaesque and illusory.

You ask what may bring about seeking dropping at my location? I think it must be linked to seeing seeking as equally santaesque and illusory. To seeing that the story that seeking suggests of change or improvement for me is rotten because there is no me outside the shifting images of thought character. Perhaps the healing journey needs to be driven out, but I am cautious about this as it could well last until consciousness ceases. I will try and answer more.

with gratitude

[IainB]

Jon,

Thank you for championing this work and opportunity here so consistently, for so long.

if there is ever actually a self, as such, a fixed entity? Was there ever a separate self?

I can't believe that I lived inside the hypnosis for so long, returned to it and unquestioningly audienced it endlessly. Like a subject who instinctively bows and is filled with reverence at the first sign of the king sauntering past on his horse before eagerly or apprehensively awaiting his next appearance.

Not any more please.

Thought content was the 'other' thing appearing and known (in the here and now of the alive being). It really was allowed to fill up and be considered to have a life of it's own. Even when it kept regurgitating pain and reactivity. Somehow this 'other' was taken as guide, reference point, accurate narrator...no, director. In not knowing an alternative, there seemed no alternative.

what if it’s very clearly seen that this “self” is a mental construct, always was, always will be?

If it is very clearly seen that the self only ever appeared in thought, then a natural blooming and blossoming takes place filling known experience and this snowballs.

Thought is slipped back into, compelling thoughts still grab attention, and 'fundamental' concepts appearing in thought such as 'go to work', 'speak honestly and supportively to this person now here' and 'the next thing taking place is important...keep focused and participate and let it happen' remain taken as granted and a fair accompaniment to what is unfolding. But it is always returned to knowing...only thoughts.

Knowing is fuelled by a desire to no longer be hypnotised by the thought cloud. It is seen how disadvantageous that is. It is clean and clear to step off the rollercoaster.

What if discomfort is just discomfort, but not happening TO someone?

Life seems to live out as an endless shifting flourish of ups and downs. Beingness includes a complex shifting of feeling. That isn't changed by knowing thought as thought and sensation as sensation.

with thanks

[IainB]

Jon

It occurred in the past that a lot of the retreat into thought content is in response to wanting more than life as it is showing up in experience, an unwillingness to know that this is it, now, with thought content known as illusion. Shifting sensation and a flow of encounter and change. There can be a real interest in the story layered on top and the alternatives, conclusions and resolutions it suggests in thought words and thought images.

Sensation within a wider flow of experience seems central to what is. As you said with your hands. This is naturally returned to as always present. Sometimes restful and sometimes choppy, but always there. I'll run with this today.

with love

[IainB]

Jon

There is a wish to see clearly in the knowing filled moment, where thought content isn't immersively audienced. That the me character isn't/was never present.

There is a being here, with life passing through, but it takes a return to thought content for the character and story to resume. Then a return to an absence of character and story.

I saw a friend this morning write 'as if identity were clay in your hands, not sediment laid down over years of living, layer after layer' about the futility of trying to change the character or unwanted parts of an external world.'

There is a wish to take and know this space in which thought content doesn't take the lead, but it is only embraced in the gaps in the story. There is a naive wish to grasp and hold and be set free from the thought story.

with thanks

[JonathanR]

Hi Iain

Managed to access the Gate! I’m I’m going to keep it succinct, so wont reply to everything. However I have read your posts carefully :)

There is a wish to see clearly in the knowing filled moment, where thought content isn't immersively audienced. That the me character isn't/was never present

Your wording is very precise. Do you feel that that there must be a sort of sustained mental state or condition of consciousness of something in order for clarity that “me” is an illusion?

It is sometimes, actually often, said that it’s a question of “seeing” no self. But this wording can be misleading if, by “seeing” there’s an idea about a particular state of mind or awareness. That someone, me, must “see” no self.


This carries a subtle notion “my” consciousness. But is there a “my consciousness”?

There may appear to be because of habit of associating consciousness with “my body” or “my mind” or “my head”, or an argument from thought that “my consciousness” is not the same as “his or her consciousness” (and so on). But actually, where does awareness end? Where is the boundary? Where does it begin? Look now.


That’s enuf.

Speak soon.

Love

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

Do you feel that that there must be a sort of sustained mental state or condition of consciousness of something in order to clarity that “me” is an illusion?

There would seem to be a conscious experience that is known many times each day where thought content is known as illusory as it appears and passes. This conscious experience concludes each time thought content is audienced then appears again later.

This helps keep thought held up for reconsideration with the veracity of the content it suggests questioned rather than taken as valid.

Those sustained mental states seem the dream of the meditator or the deeply held wish of the spiritual seeker. I've never really known those. They don't fit with the experience of flip-flopping between thought and knowing thought as illusory.

I would like to deepen this knowing about thought. It seems like a rollercoaster at present with thought content sometimes seeming even more present and pressing than before. Then there is sensation. Without so much retreat into thought there seems a re-evaluation of sensation and a new growing relationship with it. This can be both comforting and disconcerting as sensation morphs from warm to a painful chasm. There's no changing this, but there is the opportunity to witness, be, comfort. This doesn't fully answer your question but feels real and relevant.

This carries a subtle notion “my” consciousness. But is there a “my consciousness”?

Without listening to thought there is only a flow of happening. It's not personal.

where does awareness end? Where is the boundary? Where does it begin?

Sure that flow seems the antithesis of boundary. It has no size and yet is infinite. Similarly no beginning and no end. Awareness would seem one word that points towards experience but is somewhat limiting as what is is much bigger and fuller.

with love