Requesting a guide.

[IainB]

Hi V,

More moaning I'm afraid.

My window to look seems incredibly small. I remember to look, but then within moments thought appears, this takes full attention and is believed in. Then only later again is there a brief remembering to look, before this is again lost. It a now been some time since I was able to see thought as thought only, Thought became sticky, thick and believed in again.

Moan moan moan moan.

When I had three weeks away from my usual routine I was able to look for hours on end. Ultimately this triggered a clear knowing that all of Ian/personhood/me is contained within, and expressed only within thought.

I was able to look and see thought for what it is (a sort of haze of data that comes and goes). When thought was absent, it was clear that was is here is alive and awake, but of course entirely free of all the components of Ian, which are exclusively within thought.

What pushed me over the edge was your pointer to look for what it is that believes in thought, once the thought clears, or when thought is seen as thought and nothing more what is it that knows that. I wasn't able to find these things but that seemed of secondary importance as it allowed for a shift where thought was seen differently.

With love,

[Vivien]

all right. If you want to you can stay away from inquiry for a while, do whatever you need to do, and when you feel ready again, you can come back investigating. You don't have to force anything. :)

Vivien

[JonathanR]

Hi Ian,

How can I help? What would you like to look at? Once you have replied we can get chatting and I’ll see if I can usefully point for you?

😊

Jon

[IainB]

Jon,

Earlier there was an interest in this work, but there remained an infatuation with thought content. Thought content was not ‘put in its place’ and seen for what it was. It still had a magnetic magical pull. It was given reverence and met with belief, so loomed large on the stage. It was valued for its judgement of right/wrong, good/bad, when to fear and what to desire, it remained fetishised, given an audience.

An expectation that something be ‘got’ lived on. Nothing was not enough.

That there only be ‘right now’, known, and with thought content held at arm’s length like a balloon bouncing and tagging behind on a string, or a small tender roped behind a vessel, held but untended and should it drift off, of no great consequence…

That was not a ‘getting’, it was a taking away, a loss. It was not the resolution that was wished for, questions were left unanswered. Quite scary, given that infatuation seemed to stretch back forever.

Reparenting work opened a door to deeper self-acceptance and a love of others and how they could move my discomfort. There was shadow work, peer counselling and dyads that facilitated release of deficiency, shame and painful thought content. This was no longer tolerated and almost ‘pushed away’ when it appeared. Non-duality said I was arbitrary and unchosen so why not release? I tuned in as best I could.

It’s funny. Trauma in the story can lead some to a break with thought story belief with no return. For others, there is a gripping on.

It’s ‘too quiet’ given how much the stage was filled with the sound of thought earlier and the tendency to attend to it. There seems a welcoming of it being heard even if what it had to say was acutely painful at times.

How can I help?

I would like you to witness me as the break is made, please.

Now seems ever changed, but most times there is an opportunity to know that what is appearing in thought is that bouncing balloon. It might seem red and round, but it’s full of nothing, bouncing somewhere behind in the breeze.

Sometimes thought content may be more vivid: I might be tired or vexed and it floods in and fills me. 'I' forget.

But later there is a return, a guttural argh or ugh or a more gently release, and it is pulled away from. It is, but it is unnecessary.

What would you like to look at?

It is as though thought content and the thought story Iain is a personal secret known only here. It would seem there are many others with their own story seen only to them. Nobody knew I believed. No one will know this is changed.

It’s advantageous to live from a place where this story is known as unreal, right? Could we run with this and go deep?

This provides no answers to why life is here, suffering and death, a rather fractured world, but can you show me the benefits of releasing this long held story and keeping remembered?

I’ll see if I can usefully point for you?

I have no doubt about that.

with love,

[JonathanR]

Hi Iain

Good to read your post and to make contact. Thanks for elaborating to some extent. Reading your post was a little like reading poetry. You have a nice way with words.

It is as though thought content and the thought story Iain is a personal secret known only here. It would seem there are many others with their own story seen only to them. Nobody knew I believed. No one will know this is changed.

It’s advantageous to live from a place where this story is known as unreal, right? Could we run with this and go deep?

Yes we could.

[JonathanR]

Sorry, somehow posted my reply before it was finished.

To continue:

I would like you to witness me as the break is made, please.

Sure, of course, but so that I understand what you mean by “the break” could you let me know what you really mean? It sounds important.

Now seems ever changed, but most times there is an opportunity to know that what is appearing in thought is that bouncing balloon. It might seem red and round, but it’s full of nothing, bouncing somewhere behind in the breeze.

Ha! Yes.

An expectation that something be ‘got’ lived on. Nothing was not enough.

Oh yes. That can happen. Does this still remain as an expectation?

I haven’t written much but have asked you a couple of important questions, so whatever you can tell me will help.

Please write back as fully as you would like.

With love

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

could you let me know what you really mean [the break] ? It sounds important.

Break as in schism, not cup of tea.

When it is known that nothing in thought content is real. Like emerging from water and the relief of taking a breath that might become increasing urgent if not taken.

When it is possible to look, see, know and remember that thought content is a substanceless vortex of contentless content.

For a few seconds or more. Then thought content is sunk into and believed again and a sequence of thoughts are known plus believed.

Then there is either the thought "remember that important thing" (or thought content to that effect) or just a simple knowing that the story appearing in thought has no substance.

There is an expectation that this grow and deepen and become more present. This expectation may or may not be met.

It's exciting to know that thought content was never necessary or required, rather like a secret that lived within me unknown to the rest of the world, and when no longer believed as real it's no big deal. No one else knew or saw the character there in thought, or the stories. The world is unaffected by the knowing of this.

Does this [an expectation that something be ‘got’] still remain as an expectation?

That's somewhat paradoxical.

In the world of thought content dreams of getting and reconciliation play out. Some are quite appealing. It seems as though that's what thought content does, forever representing what ifs, maybes, incomplete stories.

In looking here and now (in that 'break') there is just an earie quiet.

It's kinda the ultimate letting go. The relinquishing (of belief) in the story of me after eyes were fixated on it for a lifetime.

A friend in his 80s will move to Cornwall in the summer. I will never see him again. It's a little like that. Saying goodbye to someone kept very close.

with love

[IainB]

Jon

I've contradicted myself.

Break as in schism, not cup of tea.

It's both.

There was/is a big break - when it is seen and known that thought content isn't real. That can't be unseen or unknown.

Then follows potentially endless small breaks when this knowing is remembered.

with thanks

[JonathanR]

Hi Iain

Ok. Thanks for elaborating.

I recognise the “seeing” that you mention. And I recognise that then thoughts appear about various things, beliefs crop up, install themselves , or get believed for a while and then … oh yeah! What’s happening right now, without interpretations is immediately apparent. All those thoughts, drama, beliefs are all suddenly “empty” again.

There are stories about how beliefs, identification are supposed to reduce or diminish until they don’t happen. But what if they don’t diminish? Is there something wrong, that ought to change? That someone should change?

or. what if those identifications are actually opportunities to notice what’s going on? To see identification as it happens?

Prior to noticing self-identification maybe there was no awareness of the thought-structures that go with identification? Even if it’s not the most comfortable experience to be noticing these patterns repeating is there “a person”, “me” , really, that these narratives or images point to?

Who, or what, exactly, goes through these episodes and is subject to them?


Love

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

There are stories about how beliefs, identification are supposed to reduce or diminish until they don’t happen. But what if they don’t diminish? Is there something wrong, that ought to change? That someone should change?

There has been somewhat of a shift.

When thought content is unpleasant (you know those ones that burn rather) this is recognised/felt. I no longer blame the story within thought (as much) and take it as a call to arms against the protagonists (as much). Instead that is seen to be a bit of a trap and likely to just keep the cycle of blame and infatuation with the story alight. When the stove if felt as hot the hand is quickly swept away.

I did sink into one story today of unfairness and retaliation and fetishized over this for some time, but there was relief when this seemed to fade later.

I also used to retreat into thought content as a friend or place of refuge. Now a lot of it seems rather unpalatable and there is relief found in not being in thought content so much. Some of those stories seems so old and victimey and done to death.

So yes, it can overwhelm me still. But now I know 'the secret' - I don't have to believe it (so much). I get breaks, lots of them.

But this question seems orientated towards expectation and dissatisfaction if thought does not fall in line. The someone is lived emptily in thought. Any changes in the someone would just be a different thought.

what if those identifications are actually opportunities to notice what’s going on?

Maybe it's good thought content stays raw and bad. If there were nothing but nice thoughts they might be retreated into. Rather like a nice dream that is reluctantly woken from.

To see identification as it happens?

This is fun. Catching myself in thought and somehow recalling 'hang on, this isn't quite right'.

Prior to noticing self-identification maybe there was no awareness of the thought-structures that go with identification?

No, they were taken as real. In fact, more real than the knowing out with thought. I was hypnotised by the elevator music and reluctant to step outside.

is there “a person”, “me” , really, that these narratives or images point to?

They only point to themselves. A closed loop that perpetuates readily when attended to.

Who, or what, exactly, goes through these episodes and is subject to them?

I enjoyed looking a lot today. I found it quite exciting to look when I was busy in activity and with others, as well as when it was calmer and I was not around others.

There was a noticeable knowing that thought content is empty and it was exciting to remember this.

Earlier there was a thought "almost everyone in the world believes in their thoughts, and carry reverence for the thoughts held within". This gave a specialness to the contrast of holding thought content at arms length and not being subsumed by it (as much).

None of that answers your question. Without referring to thought content, only that noticeable knowing seems present (and an earth quiet of thought is known).

with thanks

[JonathanR]

Hi Iain

I also used to retreat into thought content as a friend or place of refuge. Now a lot of it seems rather unpalatable and there is relief found in not being in thought content so much. Some of those stories seems so old and victimey and done to death.

This sounds familiar. Same here. A lot of thought, a lot of identification as a ‘self’ somehow seeming to be bound into some kind of story is unpalatable and yes, done to death.

It seems possible to not be bothered with whatever thoughts are “saying” .

But this question seems orientated towards expectation and dissatisfaction if thought does not fall in line. The someone is lived emptily in thought. Any changes in the someone would just be a different thought.

I asked it because you mentioned the possibility of an expectation about going beyond the repeated “forgettings” It seemed that there might be frustration that a further level of enlightenment, one where “getting lost in thought” didn’t happen? (let me know if I haven’t understood you correctly?).

You have answered logically, from a correct non-dual standpoint, saying “ The someone is lived emptily in thought. Any changes in the someone would just be a different thought.“. It’s possible to say this and to mean it but to still feel that something isn’t quite happening that should. Do you find yourself feeling/ thinking this? It’s best to answer from gut here, rather than from what we know intellectually must be the case. Otherwise frustrations can tend to hang around as unmet expectations.

I enjoyed looking a lot today. I found it quite exciting to look when I was busy in activity and with others, as well as when it was calmer and I was not around others.

That’s really good Iain. It can be exciting and it helps to be enjoying inquiry. Almost like fun, light hearted.

There was a noticeable knowing that thought content is empty and it was exciting to remember this.

Great.

None of that answers your question. Without referring to thought content, only that noticeable knowing seems present (and an earth quiet of thought is known).

That’s very interesting.


All the best

Jon

[IainB]

Jon,

My day was serene earlier, then later I became triggered and knowing thought content as empty was lost and knowing here and now became blended with believed thought content. This may influence my reply somewhat but I do like to reply.

might [there] be frustration that a further level of enlightenment, one where “getting lost in thought” didn’t happen?

I'm not sure about this yet. This could emerge. It seems so new to know to that thought content is empty that there is still novelty and a sort of joy in it. Whether dissatisfaction comes later at this stage I will have to wait and see.

I can only glimpse out of the corner of my eye most times that what I just thought was empty. Sometimes there is a sinking in and it is much more clear. Sometimes hours go by and it is lost entirely.

It’s possible to say this and to mean it but to still feel that something isn’t quite happening that should. Do you find yourself feeling/ thinking this?

I am the world's biggest bypasser. Okay perhaps not the biggest, but it has/did happen. I consider myself part of the community who acknowledge and respond to their earlier use of non-duality expressions to bypass internalised trauma and deficiency. I'm not ashamed or embarrassed by this. To bypass is very human. I am proud and accepting of my humanity, both vulnerabilities and strengths. In fact, to be very aware of bypassing could have benefits. It certainly seemed to contribute towards a new and different 'feel' about knowing thought as empty that followed from a re-evaluation of how parts of Iain were encountered recently.

So yes, any form of bypass or any indication of fantasy chasing is good to keep as things to consider.

Do you recall the scene from Terminator 2: Judgement Day where the bad T-1000 character made from a futuristic metal is ultimately foiled by emersion in molten steel? As he 'dies' the faces of the different characters he appropriated form and squeal. Iain is a bit like this. I see him form in bubbles of thought in different aspects, showing up in different ways (happy, sad, good, bad). The commonality though is that is all shifting thought images he plays out in, not external to these thoughts. He's only known in those thoughts.

with gratitude

[JonathanR]

Hi Iain

You mention a couple of interesting things.

It seems so new to know to that thought content is empty that there is still novelty and a sort of joy in it.

That’s great. So really, how recently did it become clear about thought content? What was it that made the difference, before which this wasn’t seen? Please say a bit about this, whether it was a year ago or very recently.

Sometimes there is a sinking in and it is much more clear.

Very interesting. Does this happen during meditation or some other quiet time ?

Do you notice anything that helps this sinking in?
Does the sinking in ever reach a place of discomfort or fear?


Thanks for all the other detail you gave, about bypassing and how it’s good to notice this.

If you’re wondering “why does he ask so many questions?” it always takes a few posts to get to know what pointing to offer. Pointing only works if it’s appropriate and relevant. So it’s very helpful to get to know you.


All the best

Jon

[IainB]

Jon

So really, how recently did it become clear about thought content?

Really it's only clear about thought being empty when looking in the now. However there is thought content about this becoming clear and it's easy to share this.

What was it that made the difference, before which this wasn’t seen?

Around two weeks ago I did clearing dyads that accelerated existing sharing in small groups. This created a strong sense that it was unnecessary to hold, repeat and believe in a sequence of unwanted thoughts. This supported seeing that all thought content may be disbelieved. I was able to see this from a slightly new angle and there was a surfacing from thought content. I already knew well that LU was a good place to explore this.

Does this happen during meditation or some other quiet time ?

I don't sit in meditation so much. It's more common when I'm not fatigued, vexed or engaging with another person. In these quieter times there is more opportunity to remember to look.

Do you notice anything that helps this sinking in?

If what is appearing is 'pleasant' it's easier to sink in and leave thought. If it's 'unpleasant' there's a tendency to give audience to thoughts acknowledging an issue and possible solutions.

I've been trying to 'love-in' to what is - that which is appearing other than thought content. This simply means to consider the people/places/things appearing as benign and friendly and okay to be with. To make friends with what is rather than disinterested and more inclined to slip into thought content.

Does the sinking in ever reach a place of discomfort or fear?

Even if it is remembered shortly before and again subsequently that thought is empty, thought suggests or outlines an object or event and there is a curiosity or pull towards it. Or there seems a parallel between sensations and thoughts where thought content piggybacks on sensation to seem all the more compelling.

This curiosity, pull or piggybacking limits the sinking in the here and know with some measure of remembering.

Sinking in is stymied by thought content returning, rather than discomfort or fear.

with love

[JonathanR]

Iain

Around two weeks ago I did clearing dyads that accelerated existing sharing in small groups. This created a strong sense that it was unnecessary to hold, repeat and believe in a sequence of unwanted thoughts. This supported seeing that all thought content may be disbelieved. I was able to see this from a slightly new angle and there was a surfacing from thought content. I already knew well that LU was a good place to explore this.

Interesting. Yes that’s true.

I’m not familiar with clearing dryads.

Is it still clear that the content of thoughts is a kind of narrative or succession of images or imaginings that “talk” about whatever is going on (or went on or will go on) but are never really the same as felt presence of immediate experience ?

This sinking in is very useful.

Does the sinking in just happen or is there an attempt to “do” it or make it happen?

. I've been trying to 'love-in' to what is - that which is appearing other than thought content. This simply means to consider the people/places/things appearing as benign and friendly and okay to be with. To make friends with what is rather than disinterested and more inclined to slip into thought content.

Sounds good. Sometimes I notice or pay attention to heart. Or maybe it’s like sinking into heart. Especially if there has been a lot of mental activity. But it’s not something I “try” to do. It’s about a very simple shift of attention. Another thing that can be lovely is to just notice the sensation in or around feet, or hands. Once again that’s not thinking ABOUT anything very much.

Then there’s nature. A very beautiful gift that is a world of sensation. Just walking by the beach or finding time to at least go outside.

I will post later too.

With love