End of seeking

[graceabounds]

Just checking in to see how everything has been unfolding…

Becca

[Rodders]

Hi Becca,

Thanks for checking in and sorry I’ve been a bit slack. Been quite busy over the weekend with my family(NZ time zone).

I get that I need to keep repeating where you led me the other day. I feel I can drop into that space at will and have been trying to operate more from there. (The question arises who is there to drop into the space?) is it helpful to start questioning where/who am I from that space?

This is what I have been looking at on the fly but I will be able to focus on this more over the next few hours. I have attempted the excercise a few times here and there but have not had any major noticings.

Is it better for me to carry on with the exercise as prescribed and leave what I mentioned above?

[graceabounds]

Good to hear you’re keeping up with it and beautiful that there is a consistent access point.

The question arises who is there to drop into the space?

Excellent—this is exactly the right kind of disruption. The assumption that someone is doing something gets to be deconstructed. What is actually happening when you experience dropping into that space? Look closely. Does an entity shift, or does a shift just happen? Is the space always present?

As for questioning where/who am I from that space—only if it’s a direct, visceral inquiry, not a mental game. Look from direct experience, not as a philosophical pondering.
When the shift happens, what remains? Is there a ‘you’ navigating it, or just the recognition of what is? Can you locate a thinker?

The exercises are structured to break identification at the root. If you’re not seeing anything major yet, that’s fine, there won’t be ‘major noticing’ to get each time. This particular one is just to practice looking. It’s a building block. The ‘goal’ isn’t an event, it’s stripping away. The illusion dies in small, unglamorous ways.

:)

Becca

[Rodders]

Hi Becca,

Thanks for the feedback.

It feels like a decision is made to drop into the space though I will continue looking at this. At least the question of doership is coming in fairly frequently.

The space is always present and has been for a good while now. 4 years ish. I just didn’t really know what to do with it or needed a new perspective on it. A part of me seems to have given up trying to figure it out. Feels like there is more acceptance and now more noticing.

Doership in the space is interesting. I have to go to mind for the doership where as if I just accept and relax into it seems like there isn’t doership. Still playing around but feel I’m on the right track(dare I say it - the ‘I’ police are out but I am resisting the urge to correct).

Also noticing a fair bit of thought comes in trying to describe the space etc and pulling info from all the books/podcasts/teachers I’ve absorbed over the years to see if it fits. Not indulging in it to try and stay out of the mind. But guess that needs looking at as well as I must be feeling doership when noticing that. There seems to be an element of not knowing what’s going to happen as well. It’s like when you’re not listening to the mind you don’t know.

I don’t find a thinker when I look from direct experience.











If

[graceabounds]

Hello Mat,

The space is always present and has been for a good while now. 4 years ish. I just didn’t really know what to do with it or needed a new perspective on it. A part of me seems to have given up trying to figure it out.

Great. There is nothing to figure out, and no-one to figure it out. As you noticed, there isn't doership within it to be found, only within thoughts. The perspective that we are exploring is that no perspective is necessary, that it is 'safe' to go all in so to speak.

At least the question of doership is coming in fairly frequently.

Great, let's explore with another exercise:

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

So is there doership at all? Inside or outside of the space?

Also noticing a fair bit of thought comes in trying to describe the space etc and pulling info from all the books/podcasts/teachers I’ve absorbed over the years to see if it fits. Not indulging in it to try and stay out of the mind. But guess that needs looking at as well as I must be feeling doership when noticing that.

Yep, none of that is necessary. Good to be aware of. Use the language that naturally arises... there are no 'right' words.

I don’t find a thinker when I look from direct experience.

Excellent. Now what does that tell you about the thoughts themselves? Are they owned? Are they being produced by someone?

-Becca

[Rodders]

Hi Becca,

Struggling with the hand exercise. It seems to happen too fast to see anything. There aren't always thoughts that are detectable. The hand turns. Will keep checking over the next few days. Just wanting to keep the dialogue going.

As for thoughts, no they arise in awareness and disappear from where ever they came from. This seems more obvious. They are not produced my anyone.

[graceabounds]

Glad you gave that update. No need to belabor it. Just do it once more and answer each question from your direct experience...
in other words, show me your work and I'll be able to see where/if you are 'struggling' :)

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

So is there doership at all? Inside or outside of the space?

And, circling back, here is really what I was getting at with the whole exercise:

It feels like a decision is made to drop into the space though I will continue looking at this.

What does 'feels like' mean? Does a 'you' sit there waiting options and then deciding? Or does the dropping simply happen, and then a thought comes in afterward, claiming it as 'my decision'?

As for thoughts, no they arise in awareness and disappear from where ever they came from. This seems more obvious. They are not produced my anyone.

Great. So no 'thinker' and no ownership of thoughts. Now look directly into "in awareness." Who or what is it that is aware? is that an entity or is that just another thought?

[Rodders]

Glad you gave that update. No need to belabor it. Just do it once more and answer each question from your direct experience...
in other words, show me your work and i'll be able to see where/if you are 'struggling' :)

Hi Becca,

I went through this while I was on the plane back to work. I ended up doing open/closed with the hand instead. It was valuable and felt like it was going somewhere. Then the plane landed. I want to go through the whole thing again. Thanks for pushing me.


How is the movement controlled?

In direct experience I don’t find a controller. It seems to happen spontaneously. Sometimes labelling of open/closed happens. Sometimes not. Sometimes the thought who is intending this arises but no clear answer.

Does a thought control it?

There are various thoughts about the movement but these seem to be separate from the movement.

Can a 'controller' of any description be located?

I think intention arises then movement happens which can have thought with it as well or not. The question what is intention arises as I write this? Seems to be a thought which I already saw is separate from the movement. This is hazy.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

It just seems to happen. No decision as such. An impulse arises from somewhere and the hand moves.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I don see a chooser. It just happens.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I don’t find a separate individual no.

So is there doership at all? Inside or outside of the space?

The space arises spontaneously. Ownership of a decision is made afterwards. There is no doer that can be found in direct experience because there is no separate self. These words are also just being typed by no one.

Awareness just happens with layering of thought over(not always thoughts though). There is just awareness in direct experience. Nothing else.

[graceabounds]

Yes. This is it.

There never was a doer, only the story of one—added after the fact. The movement, the intention, the labeling, the questioning—all just happening.

And even now, the recognition of this isn’t “yours.” It’s not being done by someone. It’s simply unfolding, like the hand turning over, like the plane landing, like these words appearing on the screen.

If there’s no doer, no controller, no separate self—was there ever one?

Or was it always just a story, arising in the space of what is?

[Rodders]

Hi Becca,

There’s still work to do here. It’s not completely clear and I’m sure you’ll be banging your head against the wall soon!

It’s like when acting from stillness there is really only one thing going on so a lot of the questions then seem obvious. I’m then looking at who is actually dropping into stillness? There isn’t clear seeing of that process of what allegedly is stillness arising spontaneously and a thought claiming to make the decision to drop in.

It kind of feels like something needs to give up the person altogether but is holding on.

I keep working on the previous exercises in any case.

[graceabounds]

It’s like when acting from stillness there is really only one thing going on so a lot of the questions then seem obvious. I’m then looking at who is actually dropping into stillness?

Great!
From stillness, that space where many things are obvious then yes look! Look for what is not there and never existed and doesn’t need to drop in and out. :)
There won’t be anything but a character, an avatar of Mat from that perspective. An illusion.

It kind of feels like something needs to give up the person altogether but is holding on.

That friction—the sense that something is “holding on”—is the selfing mechanism itself. It’s not that “something” needs to give up the person. That’s just another story, another move of the mind trying to retain control by creating a “process” that must be completed.

Right now, in direct experience, where exactly is this “holding on” happening? Where is this sense of a “you” dropping into stillness?

[graceabounds]

Checking in…
Is seeking still present?

:)

[Rodders]

Hi Becca,

I don’t think I have yet seen clearly enough what needs to be seen. That said, I’ve felt a certain amount of giving up lately as well but probably for the wrong reason. This is not a small thing as it’s probably been 12 years of spiritual seeking.

I have just been battling a bit with my schedule as I returned to work and work long hours when I’m away. I return home on the 11th April. Do you mind if I delay this until then?

Thanks for all your help and pointing thus far.

[graceabounds]

Sounds good, pick it up when ready to continue.

[graceabounds]

Just checking in. Seeing what is present now.

:)
Becca