beyond the gate

[warissem]

Good evening

Now it's very clear to me that there is no choice

Yes, there are choices but there is no you to chose.

The absence of me. There is the (believed) idea that I exist outside of perceptible things (subject/object) and therefore even if I see that I/me is a label attached to the body and thoughts and that I cannot be found in the field of perceptions, this does not surprise me or make it clear to me that I do not exist.

There is being, existence but it is no you.

Can you be unaware?

When the body is not conscious

Is the body conscious or is there consciousness of the body?
When you are asleep, Is the alarm clock heard, a signal to get up?

No, here and now is the only possibility that exists. Although it becomes less clear to see it when you are immersed in the flow of thought

Even the immersion in thoughts happens here now, do you see this?

no, the experience of the senses seems to happen inside me, it is very "intimate" if that makes sense, but at the same time I still feel separate, me inside the body

Do you see the contradiction in what you say?: in one side the experience happens inside "me", in the other hand "me" is separate.
Here lies the illusion of a separate, in thoughts and concepts.
Before asking questions about this "me", I invite you to be familiar with Direct experience.

Is there an outside of this experience here now?

I think this is a crucial question since I believe that what I am is not perceptible and this is where the ego hides.
It seems like there is a non-place where my consciousness resides, since I cannot find it in direct experience, so yes, there is a feeling that it is there. I am a bit confused

I am here to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

is there still me here and the world there?

yes, I still feel here in the body, separated from the world and from other person

Yes, this feeling is natural and is needed to navigate in the world but you will see that there is no separation between the experience and the knowing of it. For this, I invite you to do all the exercises I give you and ponder deeply on each question.

Here is the exercise to be familiar with direct experience :

I would like you to do it as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.
Write your descriptions exactly as it is written above.

Nour

[Blu]

Good evening Nour,

Is the body conscious or is there consciousness of the body?

There is body awareness

Even the immersion in thoughts happens here now, do you see this?

Yes

Do you see the contradiction in what you say?

Yes absolutely, in fact I was also undecided whether to write it or not, then I thought that everything can help to see what my traps are, so I wrote it

I am here to help you see through the illusion of a separate self.

And I am immensely grateful to you for that. 🙏

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.
Write your descriptions exactly as it is written above.

Petting the cat, simply = sensation
Hearing the cat purring, simply = sound
Seeing the cat, simply = color

Walking, simply = sensation
Landscape around me including my body, simply = color
Cars on the street, simply = sound
Scent in the air, simply = smell

Writing on the cell phone, simply = sensation
Watching the hand writing on the cell phone, simply = color

Deciding to eat an apple, simply = thought
Taking the apple in my hand and peeling it, simply = sensation
Chewing an apple, simply = sensation
Feeling the taste of the apple, simply = flavor

Thanks!

[warissem]

Good evening

You have done good observations. How do you feel when it is discovered that all activities are really : color, sound, sensations, tastes and smell?

Now that you have seen that experience is limited to the 5 senses field + thoughts, is the knowing (being aware) of the experience separate from the experience?

Can a you be found in the experience?

Waiting for your insights

[Blu]

Good morning Nour

How do you feel when it is discovered that all activities are really : color, sound, sensations, tastes and smell?

When I can focus my attention on this it seems like things are much simpler more "real" and "basic" than they normally seem. Simple and kind . There is also a sense of "whatever is there is fine"

is the knowing (being aware) of the experience separate from the experience?

no, the knowledge of experience IS the experience, or so it sometimes seems to me

Can a you be found in the experience?

I see that the body is a part of "the landscape" so to speak.. that the sensations associated with it are only raw sensations, labeled as "my body", but the identification remains, when I look in the mirror I recognize myself...
thoughts appear by themselves, without my intervention, I see it, but they are still mine..

Thank you Nour

[warissem]

Good evening

When I can focus my attention on this it seems like things are much simpler more "real" and "basic" than they normally seem. Simple and kind . There is also a sense of "whatever is there is fine"

yes, great to see this.
Can a separate self be found outside of thoughts?

is the knowing (being aware) of the experience separate from the experience?

no, the knowledge of experience IS the experience, or so it sometimes seems to me

Can an experience be without being aware of it?
Can a thought be without being aware of it?
Do you disappear when there is no thought?

I see that the body is a part of "the landscape" so to speak.. that the sensations associated with it are only raw sensations, labeled as "my body",

Yes, seeing this shows that you are on the right track.

but the identification remains, when I look in the mirror I recognize myself...

This is an answer given through habits and conditioning. What really appears in the mirror? Is it "myself" or a body on which is put the concept "myself". The identification lies in the thoughts.

thoughts appear by themselves, without my intervention, I see it, but they are still mine..

Where is a you which intervenes ?
What is this "I" which sees?
Is there really a me to which thoughts belong?

Look at direct experience and SEE the truth of the answers. Don't answer from thoughts, memories, accumulated knowledge.

Waiting for your insights

[Blu]

Hi,

Can a separate self be found outside of thoughts?

I keep looking at the body and feeling that it is me. I can't separate the body from the concepts about the body

Can an experience be without being aware of it?

apparently not.. but I'm not so sure.
If by experience we mean for example a landscape, a room, a person. these things exist even if at the moment they are not within my awareness

Can a thought be without being aware of it?

No

Do you disappear when there is no thought?

No

What really appears in the mirror?

Colors

Is it "myself" or a body on which is put the concept "myself".

I know what the answer is.. but it's not my experience

Where is a you which intervenes ?

In thoughts

What is this "I" which sees?

I don't know

Is there really a me to which thoughts belong?

I don't have an answer to this yet but I want to share with you this notes which I wrote while trying to look .

...thoughts do not belong to anyone. Ownership does not exist, it is just a concept invented by humans, SO it should also apply to the body... if ownership does not exist.. I need to go deeper..

there is the body, there are thoughts and there are thoughts about the ownership of thoughts and the body

- For a moment I got out of the "subject loop" it seemed like there was no one here -.
Now i know it's possible..
Obliusly, now, it's just a memory.

Look at direct experience and SEE the truth of the answers. Don't answer from thoughts, memories, accumulated

sorry for the replies but it seems like i cant see or i can only see for a few moments. otherwise its like bouncing off a rubber wall.
I think i have understood what direct experience is but when it comes to applying it to find answers to your questions, I get confused and no matter how much I try to delve deeper, to push, I continually find myself thrown out without even being able to see an answer.

for example, to this question: Is it possible to find a separate self outside of thoughts? I look and I see the body (colors + sensations) I FEEL that it is me, I UNDERSTAND that it is a label, then I repeat the question again, I SEE that it is a thought and I start from the beginning and everything repeats the same. here I get stuck because I don't know how to push more if not by brooding and obviously not getting anywhere. there must be something that I'm doing wrong or that I'm not doing well or that I'm not doing to the end but honestly I don't know how to do it
I think i don't know how to look

But I really want this

Thanks!

[warissem]

Good evening

I hear you. This exercise will help you to differentiate between what is seen and labels.

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Best for you

[Blu]

Hi,

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Colour red experienced

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Label suggest something else other than what is here now (red)

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Just a label

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Labels have no affect

Thanks

[warissem]

Good morning

Now it is seen that labels don't make any change on what is here, how about the labels body, me, mine?

Here is an investigation of a body :

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best for you

[Blu]

Hi Nour

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No and I realize how quick the mind is to take a raw sensation and conceptualize it.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

with my eyes closed the body might as well not exist

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

There is only one sensations

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

There is only one sensations

Is there an inside or an outside?

No

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

Sensations and colors

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Sensations and colors

Thanks

[warissem]

Dear Sylvia

Good observations
Is there still the body you?
Is there a you in the body ?
Is there séparation between the body and the knowing of it?

Best for you.

[Blu]

Hi Nour,

Is there still the body you?

Yes

Is there a you in the body ?

Yes

Is there séparation between the body and the knowing of it?

I have to say yes, I feel like the one who looks at the body object which is mine and me at the same time

P.s. = If I had to rely only on sensations to define the body... I couldn't. Sensations cannot be described or located and have no shape... they are a bit like thoughts, they appear and that's all that can be said about them. Then I open my eyes and the body is there, with its beautiful contours.
I see the label mine and me but the trouble is that I still believe it

Thank you for all

[warissem]

Good morning

You are still giving answers through thoughts but you begin to look at direct experience here :

P.s. = If I had to rely only on sensations to define the body... I couldn't. Sensations cannot be described or located and have no shape... they are a bit like thoughts, they appear and that's all that can be said about them.

Yes, that is what is meant by giving answers through direct experience.

Then I open my eyes and the body is there, with its beautiful contours.

There is no you to open the eyes : eyes open through a physiological and neuronal processes.
There is no you which is owning eyes, do you see this?
Have you really seen a "body" or are they just colors and shapes?
I invite you to do this exercise :

Have a look at an apple. If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

I see the label mine and me but the trouble is that I still believe it

Here is an "I" (I see) which is aware of labels "mine" and "me" : Is "I" a label ? If the answer is yes, can a label see?
If the answer is no, what is this "I" pointing to?
Does "I" believe that it is a body? Is the body seen ? can a body see thoughts?

Waiting for your insights, take time to ponder on each question (pointer).

[Blu]

Good evening Nour

There is no you which is owning eyes, do you see this?

Yes

Have you really seen a "body" or are they just colors and shapes?

Only colors

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No

However, is an apple actually known?

No

Is "I" a label ?

No

If the answer is no, what is this "I" pointing to?

To something that is aware

Does "I" believe that it is a body?

Yes

Is the body seen ?

Yes

can a body see thoughts?

No

Thanks

[warissem]

Good evening Sylvia

Fine. Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Waiting for your insights